RSparky Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I think the msf should be funded better, and required. And maybe give bike more liberty here, like they do in the motherland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnislash16 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I think the msf should be funded better, and required. And maybe give bike more liberty here, like they do in the motherland.Even the MSF course isn't strict enough. I took it and I can tell you that 75% of the people in there with me had no business being on a bike on the street. And they passed. One younger girl said as soon as she passed she was gonna go out and buy some 1200cc Harley (I forget what kind it was) and then she was gonna take her 2 year old and her 6 year old for a ride. I felt so worried for those kids bc the girl passed. She could get through all the course but barely and that was on a little 250cc bike. Scary. The course helps but doesn't keep dumb ppl from doin dumb things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitz Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Saw a statistic that riders that take the MSF course are 40% more likely to be involved in an accident than an endorsed rider that didn't take the course.It says a couple things. 1: Taking the MSF course doesn't necessarily make you a better or safer rider. 2: Those riders that feel they need to take the MSF course (confidence?) most likely do, and also are less skilled and inherently more likely to be involved in an accident whether they take the course or not.I think the system the way it is now is sufficient, but seeing as how it is very easy to get a permit and pass the test....the penalties for riding unendorsed should be higher. It's too easy to be legal....to not be legal. Yes that means you Cookie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Even the MSF course isn't strict enough. I took it and I can tell you that 75% of the people in there with me had no business being on a bike on the street. And they passed. One younger girl said as soon as she passed she was gonna go out and buy some 1200cc Harley (I forget what kind it was) and then she was gonna take her 2 year old and her 6 year old for a ride. I felt so worried for those kids bc the girl passed. She could get through all the course but barely and that was on a little 250cc bike. Scary. The course helps but doesn't keep dumb ppl from doin dumb thingsNothing, not even legislation and warning stickers and public safety announcements will ever keep dumb people from doing dumb things. We must rely on Darwin to remove these stooges from the gene pool before they further pollute it with their stupid offspring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imprez55 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 They didn't mention a desire to pull over those with valid learner permits being in OSHP jurisdiction. If you have a temp permit you can't ride on the highway, so are they not going to increase pulling them over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 They didn't mention a desire to pull over those with valid learner permits being in OSHP jurisdiction. If you have a temp permit you can't ride on the highway, so are they not going to increase pulling them over?Lots of riders get pulled over on highways where they weren't supposed to be with temp permit. More looking at plates, more will be pulled over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitz Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Lots of riders get pulled over on highways where they weren't supposed to be with temp permit. More looking at plates, more will be pulled over.I didn't know you couldn't ride on the highway with a permit. I rode a lot of highways when I had mine. They need to do a better job of disseminating the information.....I read the entire motorcycle endorsement booklet before taking the test and never saw that in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) I didn't know you couldn't ride on the highway with a permit. I rode a lot of highways when I had mine. They need to do a better job of disseminating the information.....I read the entire motorcycle endorsement booklet before taking the test and never saw that in there.Actually, what it says is no congested roads and no interstate highways. Whatever an interstate highway is. Having heard a few highway patrolman on the subject, they probably consider state highways as part of that. These rules go back to before freeways.No passengers.Helmet and eye protection.Daylight only.Valid one year.edit: a decent definition of an interstate highway, is one with limited access. Entrance and exit ramps. Edited June 25, 2012 by ReconRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crb Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) See "Post 29"Redirecting a person to post #29 is a violation of the T.O.S! I suggest you knock it off Harley fanboy tool! Edited June 25, 2012 by crb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Honestly, is there anything in the US that requires a license and involves an adequate amount of training?Look at every license you have (driver,motorcycle,cdl,hazmat,chl) and tell me that you had proper training to obtain those license. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomike Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 It took 5 years of schooling and 8000 documented hrs of working with a licensed journeyman electrician to get my journeyman's license. Seems that is proper training. Every month I had to be evaluated by the journeyman and the evaluation had to be signed and turned in. Then to get my license I had to take a 300 question test from the state, and pass it. Lots of paperwork... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheech Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 You shouldn't need a license. After the morons I've seen rolling in my 12 years on the street I have no faith I'm their testing system. It's strictly for revenue, not for safety. 'Here 18 year old guy, swerve through these cones at 3mph and we'll unleash you and your R1 capable of breaking the sound barrier on 270, and that'll be $100"Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2Well, you can suck it up and pay once for the endorsement, or you can pay multiple times for license violations. Try explaining to the cop and the judge how you have eleventy billion years of riding experience as he tickets you for being out at night on a highway, and let me know how that defense goes for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 *shrug* Doesn't apply to me...Good luck to those of you riding without licenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheech Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Saw a statistic that riders that take the MSF course are 40% more likely to be involved in an accident than an endorsed rider that didn't take the course.It says a couple things. 1: Taking the MSF course doesn't necessarily make you a better or safer rider. 2: Those riders that feel they need to take the MSF course (confidence?) most likely do, and also are less skilled and inherently more likely to be involved in an accident whether they take the course or not.I think the system the way it is now is sufficient, but seeing as how it is very easy to get a permit and pass the test....the penalties for riding unendorsed should be higher. It's too easy to be legal....to not be legal. Yes that means you Cookie!Citation or bullshits. I can make up numbers too.Actually, what it says is no congested roads and no interstate highways. Whatever an interstate highway is. Having heard a few highway patrolman on the subject, they probably consider state highways as part of that. These rules go back to before freeways.No passengers.Helmet and eye protection.Daylight only.Valid one year.edit: a decent definition of an interstate highway, is one with limited access. Entrance and exit ramps.This is how it was explained to me by the assholes in the Worthington PD.If the freeway is divided in any way (concrete median, K-rail, grass median, so on), you need an endorsement to ride. This includes state routes like 315, and non-limited access like 23 north of 270 (or wherever it starts to split), you get the idea. The rest is self-explanatory, and covered above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Actually, what it says is no congested roads and no interstate highways. Whatever an interstate highway is. No passengers.Helmet and eye protection.Daylight only.Valid one year.edit: a decent definition of an interstate highway, is one with limited access. Entrance and exit ramps.This is how it was explained to me by the assholes in the Worthington PD.If the freeway is divided in any way (concrete median, K-rail, grass median, so on), you need an endorsement to ride. This includes state routes like 315, and non-limited access like 23 north of 270 (or wherever it starts to split), you get the idea. The rest is self-explanatory, and covered above.I would argue if the highway doesn't have the word "interstate" in the name, you're golden...Interstate 90, interstate 80...now to be on the safe side, I'd say anything that is limited access, and has a speed limit over 55, I'd probably steer clear of in case the officer wants to be a PITA. (not to mention those roads aren't much fun to ride anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Saw a statistic that riders that take the MSF course are 40% more likely to be involved in an accident than an endorsed rider that didn't take the course.Saw a statistic that said people who ride late 90's zx-6r's are 157% more likely to eat chocolate ice cream while doing whoolies in their grandma's front yard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsuMj Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Saw a statistic that said people who ride late 90's zx-6r's are 157% more likely to eat chocolate ice cream while doing whoolies in their grandma's front yard... That seems like a concise statistic with lots of details. it must be true and I will choose to believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN_NO_OH Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2012/02/congress-motorcycle-checkpoints.htmlAn article above with some relevant information. (I hadn't realized the Congress was seriously considering nationally mandated mc checkpoints... ??.) According to this article, which itself draws on NHTSA information, 22% of riders involved in fatal crashes did not have a proper mc license. I don't know what the breakdown of that 22% is in terms of riders with no vehicle license whatsoever as opposed to those who, Schwarzenegger and Rothesberger-style, have a driver's license without an mc endorsement. Still, the 22% is a remarkable number. I'm guessing that unlicensed riders are much more likely to be involved in fatal crashes, because the alternative is that about 1/4 of all the riders on public roads don't have a mc license. That would seem to me to be an incredibly high fraction. So, it might *seem* like it's a legitimate safety issue to cite non-licensed riders. On the other hand, as many of you are pointing out, it's not clear what riding safety benefits accrue from the licensing process itself, especially in OH. It might be that the fact of not having a license is a signal of other accident-causing inclinations, but making non-licensed riders get a license would not obviously make that group any safer on the road. A further note about MSF classes. I don't know that all states, even today, require a mc endorsement. There might be a mountain state or two that still lets you ride a mc with just a regular driver's license. The states that do require an endorsement, though, will let you have one upon completion of a motorcycle safety course. And it's common advice to new riders that they should take the course. There is a fair amount of information that these courses don't reduce accident rates, though. There is also a study from Indiana which shows that those who completed the course have higher accident rates than those who did not. A nice summary of a lot of studies on basic safety courses is here: http://wmoon.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/motorcycle-safety-puzzle-piece-training-part-ii/Looking over the summaries, the one thing that might be said for the basic safety course is that it does probably have the beneficial effect of discouraging riders who cannot pass the course from getting a license. Otherwise, it doesn't seem like it does very much. It's a shame, because it would be good if there were some program that would significantly reduce accident rates among new riders. I'm not sure what that would be. An important barrier in the U.S. is that no mc safety course could take novice riders out on the street to teach them the important elements of riding in traffic. It would be too risky. But traffic-riding skills are easily the most important safety skills. For what it's worth, I took a basic safety course to get my license. It wasn't in OH, and it was back in the last century. I think I wasted a weekend and $100 or so, or whatever I paid. Sometimes it ticks people off when I say this, but the fact is that I didn't think the course taught me anything useful about riding. I had had a permit for months and I already was competent in the basic maneuvers taught in the course. The instructor did lecture us loudly and aggressively about traffic law, but he was wrong about a lot of what he was saying, so I can't say there was any benefit there, either. In the U.S., pretty much all practical motorcycling is self-taught, or is taught with help from friends, books, or internet advice. There's no legal possibility for formal instruction on the street, and there is really no substitute for riding experience. I suppose the thing to say is to urge caution on new riders until they have skills appropriate for more demanding traffic conditions. Finally, all of the above said, it has still struck me as strange to hear from time to time from riders who don't have a license. On some of the V-twin forums, if you look, you can see this is a common topic of discussion. It's not hard to get a mc endorsement, and it doesn't seem there is any real upside to not having one. There is the downside, too, of ongoing static from the cops. Why go through that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrown57 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 at Blitz :dumbass: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnislash16 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 When I took my permit test I asked them if St. Rt. 32 was an interstate highway because it was not designated as such (like I-71, I-75). They said no it's not and I could ride it but only east of Batavia because West of Batavie is Eastgate which is considered a congested area. Basically, if it's not designated I-75 etc. then they say it's the cops discretion. I don't know if thats the official terms but thats what the DMV cops and my buddy who is a cop told me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 just remember, cops are often the WORST people to ask about laws.there are so many laws, its impossible to know them all. plus, cops don't stay up to date on new rulings, case law, they dont read law journals etc. the best person to ask would be your local prosecutor, or another attorney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Just go to a bike night and watch how many leave just before it gets dark. Temp permits have to go home when the Sun goes down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Just go to a bike night and watch how many leave just before it gets dark. Temp permits have to go home when the Sun goes down...they have to wear helmets, too... but most of them at bike nights don't so I doubt they care about the position of the sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 they have to wear helmets, too... but most of them at bike nights don't so I doubt they care about the position of the sun.Good point, didn't think about that. I'm going to have to do a survey about why they cut and run when the Sun goes down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitz Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Saw a statistic that said people who ride late 90's zx-6r's are 157% more likely to eat chocolate ice cream while doing whoolies in their grandma's front yard... Citation or bullshits. I can make up numbers too. at Blitz :dumbass:I'm not just making shit up Oh Ye Royal Judges of Valid Comments and Truth.http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2010/12/13/does-motorcycle-training-reduce-motorcycle-accidents/http://motorcycleclub.org/http://www.motorcycleclub.org/safety/mayhew_simpson.htmEvery single article I find says there is no proof MSF courses reduce accidents and in fact they have found that in some states where MSF courses are voluntary, there is a higher likelihood of accidents of those that take the course. Edited June 25, 2012 by Blitz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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