Mowgli1647545497

FYI - I don't hate any cars. I just hate ignorance. And you probably wouldn't beleive how many people I talk to that honestly don't understand the fundamentals. And throwing up how those tegras beat a bunch of civics and jettas, and one underpowered, overweight bimmer in a low-power, low-speed bracket proves nothing. Except that their top adjusted time was 5 seconds behind the slowest Super-cross contender that year... Up the power, up the speed, RWD/AWD is better. Period. Its why Chrysler is returning to it. Its why Ford and GM are returning to it. Its why Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Jaguar, Lotus, Maserati, etc. etc. never left it. Its the layout of all the supercars from Japan. And on and on and on. All us engineers must be stupid, worshipping at our near sighted RWD magic shrine with blinders on. See how irritating arguing like that sounds? So dont be faceious. Not sure what you were arguing with anyway. You might be thinking you were arguing with me, but you weren't: because what I said was RWD or AWD was the better platform to build on all else being equal. And I'm betting you're not so stupid as to say thats wrong. But that was a nice smoke screen you put up there, I'll give you that, muddied up the waters pretty good chief. [ 30. May 2004, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Mowgli ]

You can lay out your priorities and then use that to get the car for you. Or you can rationalize having the car you have. 90% of this thread is people doing the latter. FWD is close to RWD? No. I'm looking thru my SCCA books (and I've got over 20 years of them) and in no year were FWD lap times close to RWD classes. What stats were you quoting, Speed Touring years when thru when, cuz I seriously want to look em up. Yuo talking the mixed lower brackets? Cones in a parking lot all in 1st and 2nd gear and yanking on the E-brake to rotate does not equal hot lapping on a full track in a fast car with real power. I can't find any year where the best FWD class cars lap times fell even middle pack to either AWD or RWD classes of equivalent power. This is back to 83. Before that I can't say. So I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't buy a car to dodge shopping carts in the Kmart backlot. A well set up Go Kart will whup all comers there. Again, so far, what I see is people just wanting to hear others say their car is a performer. And I refuse to feed ignorance. Buy the car you want, sure. Drive the car you want, sure. But don't let rationalizing make you think you're driving more than you are. I talk to so many young people that completely don't have any grasp on the basics. As an engineer, a useful excercise in design is to do "extremes" analysis. So for cars: Go to the pinnacle of pure road racing, say, oh, F1, and what do you see? There's your answer. BUT - since for the past decade and a half what we the new car buying public had pushed down our consumer's throats was a glut of FWD cars, with a VERY few RWD and AWD cars for sale, the choices to the now-used car market are just as FWD biased as trying to buy a new performance car in 1994. That doesn't mean FWD is just as good. It means you have to look harder to buy a good starting platform, or, you just gotta "work with what you can get".

French cars. They go fast in reverse.

Saw the whole thing riding around on my new bike onthe Post Rd overpass. They had to close the highway and Life Flight someone out. The only way to get the chopper in was to land it on the highway. Hope whoever it was pulled thru. An hour stuck in traffic < losing your life.

I've seen worse Supras around town (alot worse) I'm sure would ask for more $$. IMO, thats the most I'd pay for a really clean 6spd turbo version. But then I'm not stupid...

Fake

I had a civic that completely died at 74k. commuter college car and never raced or abused and it just fell apart. I also had a F150 that is closing in on 400k, dad still owns it.

A 145lb rider should be riding horses at Scioto Downs. Bike number three on its way to my garage this week smile.gif But, as I'm officially old: its my first cruiser.

Mmm. Gotta go ride the ZX-11 now...

British should spend less time doing that and more time brushing their teeth.

As I understood it, the starting question to this thread was "why can't econobox xyz be accepted a good alternative sports car" - paraphrased. Not going to speak for everyone else, but the reason I also think its better just to save up and get a better starting platform is not because econobox's tend to be four cylinders, or imports, or what-have-you. Its because they tend to be FWD. So to me, the layout is at the crux of the matter.

NW Columbus - ah, something close! I'll pop in.

http://www.richardsimmons.com/images/img/RichardBiofotos2.jpg

Not the only setup. The better setup. Knowing what setup is better makes someone ignorant? RWD and AWD goes down the 1/4 better. RWD and AWD goes around corners better. Its just simple fact. People aren't supposed to get PO'd about reality. But on CR I guess they do.

Not I. Ergo: The Cobra turns? Oops.

LOL - ok THAT post made the thread good

I don't criticize people - I just criticize FWD. smile.gif

Not a concept car. A PICTURE from a GUY on HIS WEBSITE where he posts ARTISTIC images folks make with PHOTOSHOP. Whew, that hurt spelling that out. Listen to KBOND. Nice picture.

Oops - I posted after having read only page 1. Arrrg. I hate when that happens.

You don't have to be a "serious" competitor as you put it in order to run into the wall of FWD performance, and benefit from RWD or AWD. The threshold isn't nearly that high. Don't kid yourself that the FWD layout's performance ceiling is high enough or that close to RWD or AWD for it not to matter. Even just in "spirited daily driving". Example: My wife's 03 Saab 93 Sport Sedan with the performance suspension package is a very well laid out FWD car that I'll put into the twisties up against 99% of the mod'd and slam'd econo's I see out there on the streets. Yet it still plows like a pig in turns that I take daily in the Cobra without issue - with groceries in the trunk. The limit ain't that high. Don't know why you're trying to build some "its a viable alternative" arguement, friend, but I'm not buying. FWD is the poorest choice of the three, period. If its all you can find, fine. But rationalizing is called rationalizing for a reason. And this smacks of rationalizing. BUT, there's always a but... But: FWD is a good layout for grandmothers, teeny-bopper girls, unattentive drivers, and generally people who can't control a car's rotation. And for the very same reason they don't go fast enough for people who can: they understeer. There's something to be said for that, I suppose. So if you're a poor driver but wanna drive faster than you should, sure buy FWD, you won't wreck it as fast as you would otherwise.

This is all opinion: That opening scene is exactly the one I was thinking of as well. I thought it sucked. I remember thinking in the theatre "hmm, if you can't afford the extras, or dont wanna take the time for real battle choreography, why not remove evey other frame and shake the camera around the 10 guys you hired to dance around each other in skirts? Sure....". It worked better in SPR for a couple reasons, 1. SPR didn't go down to 15fps, 2. it was first person perspective, 3. there was a WWII precident of motorola camera captures that it evokes. I don't recall any wind-up cameras in Rome... it was a cheap stylistic conceit. Braveheart did it better. Hell, Keneth Branaugh's Henry V did it ten times as better with maybe 1/100 the budget. Ten times better? N oI'm being too nice, Agincourt kicked the shit out of Gladiator's opening scene. I will admit the in the more personal duel scenes it seemed to work much better. The acting in Gladiator was great too, seriously. But that opening scene? "On my signal, unleash Hell." Gark! I almost moaned out loud in my seat. How about: "On my signal, make with the PURE CHEEEEZE" Thats just my opinion. By way of comparison, I think most of Jerry Bruckheimer flicks suck sweaty donkey balls too, but unlike Gladiator, they suck from stem to stern, dialog to photography. But they set new highs in hte suckitude of editting. Hello editting school? I'd like to enroll my friend Jerry for remedial editting class. Thanks. The Rock? Crap. Armageddon? Crap. Days of Thunder? Crap. Gone in 60 seconds? Crap. And so on...

CTS-V

Different article.

Evan Smith can make anything go fast. That man can drive! By way of comparison he took a stock 03 Cobra to 11.9x. Need to dig up that article. I think he took out the spare, rear seat, front sway bar, and lowered tire pressure to 20psi... Anyhow - I've seen/read Smith take everything from Z28s to EVOs down the 1/4 and he always gets good times out of whatever car he's in. I wish I could drive like that. +1 for not stripping a new GTO to get better times. The car is too nice to start ripping up.

I'd still buy one.