excell

fact - Pronunciation Key (fakt) - n. 1) Knowledge or information based on real occurrences 2) Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed 3) A real occurrence

Dave, you know they have been selling 3800 stuff direct to the public for nearly three years, right?

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said intense didn't, but ZZP does a much better job than intense does at keeping that stuff private.

ZZP does a good job of keeping those things off of the forums.

I mic the snout itself, but I would never think to mic the keyway. Until this started happening... Carl, if it's any consolation, I have NEVER heard of the XP or off-shelf Comp grinds having this problem. I have seen it ONLY in the VS, XPZ, and GT cams from ZZP. Could be luck, could be coincidence, who knows.

Let's dyno all three, right after eachother. That was I can have concrete proof of Nate ownage. I win!

Yep. That is exactly what happened to Don's motor. "Sorry, it was installation error." Right. redface.gif

They are at home on my dead server. Might take me a couple days, but I'll put them up.

I built a bridge! I win! graemlins/grin2.gif

I agree with everything Keith says. However, I believe there is an art to porting a throttle body just as well as there is an art to porting heads. A nicely "ported" 75mm throttle body can provide similar gains as a "stock" 85mm throttle body. But the quality of the work is job 1. In the end, a 75mm throttle body still can only flow x amount of air and an "85mm" throttle body can flow x amount more. That is a fact. But depending on the setup, gains can be similar between the two by improving the efficiency of the airflow of the 75mm over the "stock" 85mm.

Yep, I agree with you also. Sure, you can probably run some oil to 15,000. But if you have the financial means not to, why would you? Oil is the only thing separating every moving part in your motor from each other. No thanks, I'll change mine at 3000 like I always have.

No, I work in the department of redundancy department. graemlins/lol.gif I win again! I win because I win!

Because I win. I do, I really do. I win and that makes me a winner. I win!

I won that argument too. Next?

Now we're back to the same argument that I win anyway. How do you work on cars? I mean really, if you have no concept of any of this, how can you recommend performance solutions for people?

Reading comprehension. Do it.

You didn't read a fucking word I said, did you? You just proved my point, you fucking idiot.

No, I will not delete this. It has good information. (and by good information, I mean me owning you again )

Yes you did, you took once post that was completely different, changed it, and posted a second one also. tongue.gif The gains of a ported stock throttle body are in the vicinity of 5-8HP. It depends heavily on the setup. I'm talking a "stage 2" throttle body, since the stage 1 really has nothing done to it. You benefit from the increased efficiency, but lose by having the same bore size. The biggest problem I see here Nate, is that you do not understand how the aftermarket automotive retail market works. You take the fact that a company does not include something as a sign that it's not necessary. Wrong. tongue.gif

Oh, now I see that you changed your post while I was writing mine. Read what I just wrote.

I'm not talking bore size; I'm talking about the ability of the throttle body to take in air more efficiently. But, just to debunk that, most moderately modded 3800's benefit by 10HP from upgrading the throttle body to an LS1 or Northstar. If the bore size is "fine" then why do they make more horsepower? Because it brings the cost of a "kit" down - and they can sell you more parts later and make more money. It's bad business to include EVERY SINGLE PART that could make horsepower in a "kit." Where would you draw the line? Throttle bodies? Heads? 80mm turbos? I created every single performance package on the Intense website. Go look at the heads and cam packages. Do they include throttle bodies? Ported blowers? Fuel injectors? No, because the kits would be $10,000 if you included everything you need to make the most horsepower. Plus you would make less money since people expect to get a hefty discount on a “packages” or “kits.” Think about it Nate. http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=618 http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=617 http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=50 http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=48 http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=49 http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=471

Yea, I have pictures and data from two motors that had a camshaft fail the exact same way. One was a VS cam, the other an XPZ. There have been dozens more failures, but these two guys were friends and they sent me the info I wanted. I sent it all over to Cam Motion and the owner said "oh, yea, we've known about that all along and even told Comp about it. They don't really care." Remember, I wasn't just a Joe Dick off the street. I was a part of Intense and I/we had a good relationship with Cam Motion since they grind our cams. The problem is, very basically, is they do not grind the snout - specifically the keyway - to proper spec. The keyway has play in it, and over time grinds the keyway out into a "u" shape and the hole gets big enough for they key to fall in. Bye bye motor. It doesn't happen to all of them. Maybe just cams made on Fridays? graemlins/lol.gif

You aren't "telling" me anything. You are now mixing two subjects, the efficiency of a throttle body to process air and the ability of a MAF sensor to process air. What I read out of your "theory" is that you are basically saying if they didn't need to upgrade the MAF, they wouldn't have upgraded their throttle body. Sure, you can run a stock throttle body to the 10's if you want, but there is significant efficiency to be gained by upgrading the throttle body to a unit ported for efficiency of airflow. I compared this subject to our blowers because I figured it would be a subject you can relate to. I see I was wrong, as you are reading too far into it in an attempt to look smart. Let's break it all down and keep on subject: 1) Yes, you can run any stock throttle body on either an LS1 or 3800 well into the 10's (or faster) if you want. 2) The design of either stock throttle body leaves something to be desired. No stock throttle body is designed exclusively for efficiency of airflow. 3) Good airflow efficiency gains are had by utilizing a throttle body ported for the sake of airflow efficiency. Having a properly designed and ported throttle body is just as integral on an optimized setup as having a good flowing set of heads, or a camshaft matched to your combination, or even a PCM tuned well to the entire package. Can you do it with a stock throttle body? Yes, you can. Can you do it better with a properly ported design? Absolutely. Just because you don't need something out of 100% necessity does not mean that it's unnecessary. Look at Anthony's current setup. Is he going to do 10's on stock heads? Yes, he is. Will he make a SHITLOAD of gains by upgrading the heads? Yes he will. Will he make further gains by upgrading the cam to one that is designed for better flowing heads in a blown application? Yes, he will. He doesn't need any of those to get to 10's, but they would help get him there much quicker. You could just as easily have said, "people are doing 10's on stock heads, you don't need to upgrade". Spend your money on something else." Yep, you would be right. But that does not mean that you will not see good gains if you chose to add them. Just because something is "good enough" does not mean that it’s the best, most efficient way to make power.

OUCH!

He is, it's a ZZP GT1 cam which is ground by Comp. I didn't say they all have problems, because the amount that fail compared to the amount that don't is still large. However, it IS a problem and it DOES exist. I wouldn't use Comp for anything 3800 exclusive. The valve springs, retainers, locks, and lifters are okay because they are actully made for the LS1 and Comp cares about the LS1. They don't give a shit about V6's, no matter how hard they try to act like it.