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Potato, potato. The medical and public health communities have all of those same questions. Their recommendations have changed as they've gotten new information, and they know their recommendations will continue to change, because that's how science works. Meanwhile, people are dying and hospitals are full (again, sadly). So they're going to keep pushing vaccines for a reason. Everybody involved in these decisions would love more time to do research. Meanwhile, a lot of people are running out of time in ICUs. You can call it what you want, but nitpicking things here and there in order to justify a distrust of the medical community is casting doubt during a crisis, even if you phrase it as "just asking questions."

Many are not, but you sure are. Right? Isn't that exactly what you're doing by talking about Israel, talking about misattributed COVID deaths, etc? eta: You and half the people in this thread, that is. Vaccines aren't as effective as they say, masks aren't as effective as they say, COVID isn't as deadly as they say, only the overweight and unhealthy have to worry... these are common refrains right here. Post after post trying to cast doubt on the science.

That's accurate. And COVID research overturned 100+ years of bad science in regards to aerosol transmissions that dated back to the TB days.

I agree, but what's the alternative? Refuse the vaccine, don't wear a mask, and just say fuck it? The establishment is trying it's best, with some missteps, to convince Americans that all of these components are necessary. And then the "other side" is doing everything they can do cast doubt and aspersions on the CDC, the FDA, Pfizer, doctors, you name it. Who's doing more harm in that situation? If the false sense of security bothers you, then you should get vaxxed, wear a mask, and spread the gospel of "stacking," to use Kerry's word. Not do the exact opposite. Sure. That's an edge case. What bothers me is the thought that 1) this is a significant enough event that it could affect public policy, and 2) that all of the eggheads, data scientists, and epidemiologists combined haven't considered this in their research and recommendations. Like... it's not that clever of a thought, to put it a dickish way.

This is an excellent argument for the vaccinated to continue to wear masks.

Israelis seem to be dying at a much lower rate than Americans. A quick look shows about 10k daily new cases during this current spike, and 20 deaths a day. The US is above 150k daily new cases, and over 1500 deaths a day. Maybe Israel's high vaccination rate is keeping people out of the ground? I'm sure you'll come back and say that there are other factors, Israel's population is younger, etc. Sure. But this is not the slam dunk against vaccines.

I really don't understand how this is a talking point. Like, vaccines are not a silver bullet, and obviously with the new variants they're not even a bronze bullet. They help. Masks also appear to help, including surgical masks. N95 masks help even more. They're all part of the puzzle. That's fucked up. Do you know WHY you were being asked to do that? It sounds like a budgeting issue -- track how many incidents/expenses your unit has that you wouldn't have absent the pandemic. In which case, what you're describing isn't unreasonable, although IMHO that's not the best way to do it. I'm not a budget director, though. I'm curious if you know more about it. Of course, this isn't really related to whether or not COVID deaths are over or undercounted. I'm not suggesting you've misrepresented anything here, but this quote has been taken out of context all over the place. It's worth considering that even a mild case of COVID could have made an otherwise survivable heart attack a deadly one. I've discussed in one of these earlier threads how all the internet lawyers think about death certificates all wrong so I won't rehash it all here.

Thank you for clarifying and responding. Yes, fair point. Not getting vaccinated is way more of a dick move than not wearing your seatbelt for the reason you stated. It's also way less of a risky move for most people. The comparison is not 100% perfect. Withdrawn, your honor.

I do have a hard on for your posts, it's true. I think it's because you're so earnest most of the time. Like, looking back through this thread there's a lot of political pot-shots, but we all make lazy posts from time to time. Generally speaking, you post in good faith, and that encourages me to respond. Yes, you said what if, but I don't think that changes the tone that much. Even you said it was crass. Can you imagine saying that to a grieving widow? "What if this is just survival of the fittest." "What if you just got the damn vaccine instead of hypothesizing that maybe there's nothing we can do in the face of nature's power."

You did not offend me. I'm still willing to engage with you in good faith if you can rephrase your question in a way that will help me understand what you're asking. eta: Are you suggesting that there's a difference between "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" and calling the unvaxxed dolts? If so, that was not much intention. Not getting the vaccine is a stupid game, and dying from covid is winning a stupid prize. Not wearing a seatbelt makes someone a dolt. Anyone thinking that they're somehow unique enough to not need a seatbelt is a snowflake. Does that help? My intent was to make those analogous.

Mallard's father passed in November; he's mentioned it in several threads that 10phone2 has participated in, sometimes even on the same page, but I guess he missed it. Call that a douchey response if you want, but personally I wish you would direct your insults towards 10phone2's continued efforts to push a lie that COVID only kills the overweight and unhealthy. He's been spouting that nonsense for over a year, despite ample evidence to the contrary. Don't you think that's a douchey thing to do?

Oh, I see. I've read your post again and it's clear as mud. Well this isn't the first time you've accused me of contradicting myself, and I've not understood how what I've said was contradictory. Last time I asked in good faith for you to explain it so I could respond properly and you did what you do where you just make a smug comment and go away. So if you want to clarify what you mean, I will respond in good faith.

You don't know how you feel about comparing seatbelts to vaccines?

A better way to respect Mallard's dad would be to stop parroting this lie that only overweight and unhealthy people are dying. Tell everyone you know who's anti-vax about this guy you know whose dad was totally healthy and died anyway. And then encourage them to get the vaccine even if they're also healthy, so they don't suffer the same fate.

I dunno. What do you think?

I truly cannot believe you called me out for saying, "Just don't expect me to give a shit when you or your loved ones end up drawing the short straw," and then almost immediately afterward you say that maybe people drawing the short straw is just nature culling the weak. Do you even self aware, bro? The difference is I did my part by getting the vaccine to try and prevent the weak from dying.

Sounds like a dolt.

Church of Karen then. Hallowed be her name. Thanks. eta: There was an Air Force Chaplain's aide who posted on r/AirForce how the religious exemption process for the vaccine would work. Short version -- it won't, since virtually nobody will be able to produce the required evidence that they've been practicing a religion that has specific doctrines against vaccines. My idiot sister has been using a religious exemption for the public school vaccination requirements for 15 years now (she's a full on anti-vaxxer, her covid anti-vaxxing didn't come as a surprise.) Her religion? The very pro-vaccine Roman Catholic Church. I'm sure she has all those same copy/pasted email templates. I understand school systems don't want to wade into religious wars but it pisses me off that it's so easy to make a complete mockery of religious exemptions.

Genuinely curious what religion has a doctrine against wearing masks because I've never heard of it but I guess Greg doesn't get to learn things today.

What religion?

Don't shoot the messenger. Locking up bad guy blammos is big bidness

So you can blammo the bad guys real fast.

LOL, ok. Look, I'm a normal human with normal human emotions like empathy. Everyone will get my baseline of compassion that I give to everyone who shares my species. If you drive without a seat belt and get injured in an accident, you get my baseline empathy and not much more. If you keep loaded guns unlocked in your house and something bad happens, you get my baseline empathy. You beat a dog and it bites you back, you get my baseline empathy. Like all normal humans I get compassion fatigue. I can only give so much of a shit for people who play stupid games and win stupid prizes. Right? Aren't you the same way? Am I the weirdo for saying that? I don't think so, but tell me with a straight face that you don't agree with everything I just said. I think the only difference here is that you think not getting the covid vaccine is different from driving without a seat belt. You don't object to what I said, you only disagree about the context. Well.the covid vaccine is free, it's backed by science, and it's proven to save lives. Just like seat belts. So to me there's no difference. Play stupid games and win stupid prizes. Die from covid because you didn't want the free vaccine, you only get my baseline compassion. Wear your seat belt. Lock up your guns. Get vaccinated. Peace.

Nobody makes anyone post in the kitchen either. Land of the free.

Need me to Google it for you?