Clutchless Upshifting

[Blitz]

So I noticed while riding my new bike that smooth upshifting seemed a lot more difficult than on my older ZX6r. It seemed as I backed off the throttle and pulled in the clutch, shifted and then let out the clutch and reapplied throttle , that I had lost all the revs. It seemed inefficient and herky jerky, which is to say not smooth at all. It just didn't feel like the correct way to shift this high performance bike as there was so much time spent in between gears.

On my older ZX6r I was able to complete the shifting sequence in enough time that I was able to reapply throttle before the engine revved back to idle. On the newer bike, I think because of better cams (I could be completely wrong on this) it revs up and down faster thus giving me less time to shift before the engine revved back down to idle. The shifting sequence takes the same amount of time on both bikes, I just have less time to do it on my GSXR than my old bike, to maintain smooth engine RPMs throughout the shift from say 2nd to 3rd gear.

So I went in search of an answer and found clutchless upshifting. Shifting the bike in this manner is smooth as silk in terms of engine revs. It basically feels like one second the bike is in second gear, I barely cut off the throttle and the bike practically shifts itself and I'm bike on throttle in third gear and the engine maintains almost constant revs throughout, other than the split second when I cut off the throttle. It feels like this is he correct way to shift a sport bike.

So my questions are these:

1) Does this hurt the bike (tranny, clutch, shift fork)? I've read that this will not hurt the bike because bikes have a constant mesh transmission, but these are unsubstantiated Internet reports. Other people say not to do this with myriad warnings as to why it's a bad idea. I'd like someone that knows the actual answer to this question.

2). Is this the correct way to quickly shift a sport bike?

I'm hoping to get some clear cut answers based on either technical knowledge or many years of experience shifting in this manner. Many thanks!

Edited June 10, 2013 by Blitz

[Blitz]

Never mind. I found the answer I was looking for thanks to Sport Rider. Hard to believe I have been shiftingbincorrectlybfor two years. And I bet I'm not the only one on these boards doing it.

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/rss/146_0409_sport_bike_clutchless_upshifting/

[Strictly Street]

good question.

Short answer based on a few bikes, yes you can do it and if done right doesn't hurt anything.

I do have to add that done wrong you might be changing out a shift fork.

Of course this is all on older bikes.

Kinda curious what others will say about the newer sport bikes.

[ReconRat]

We had a post on this a while back. I've seen older bikes with messed up transmission parts from doing it. Newer bikes, not so much. But it all depends on the design of the parts abused.

 

I would guess it's best done when letting off the throttle a little bit to match synchronization speeds of the two gears involved. If that is done, you could use the clutch anyway, and not have rpms drop.

 

Conversely, if holding a steady throttle, at some certain rpm, your transmission will be happy to up or downshift without the clutch. But same deal, at that rpm, the transmission is happy to shift with the clutch also.

 

Mostly it is transfering the job of changing gears from the clutch to the syncros of the gear clusters. This is an extra job they weren't intended to do, and they will wear out faster. But most transmission parts are strong enough to not wear out in the life of the bike, given that the lifespan of most bikes is rather short. Something else usually breaks first.

 

edit: How bad were the "back in the day" bikes? If you missed a shift, the syncros would be so goofed up, you'd have to pull over and shut the bike off to get it back in gear again. Otherwise you'd get a massive "clunk" of parts trying to bend. On a missed shift, I still shift up instead of down, to lessen that impact of parts crashing.

Edited June 10, 2013 by ReconRat

[Gixxus Christ!]

I can shift just as fast with the clutch. I'd rather do something I know wont hurt my bike vs something that could. I would suggest you work on your technique. If you're shifting at high rpms like you should be and the tach is dropping back down to idle, you probably should work on your clutch work.

[Blitz]

I can shift just as fast with the clutch. I'd rather do something I know wont hurt my bike vs something that could. I would suggest you work on your technique. If you're shifting at high rpms like you should be and the tach is dropping back down to idle, you probably should work on your clutch work.

My clutch work is just fine. Ive been riding a vehicle with a clutch since the age of 6,whether it was a dirtbike or a tractor. The way this bike revs (and I'm sure many newer bikes) no human could shift into the next gear before the engine falls to idle or low enough to not be smooth getting into the next gear.

I'll trust Sport Rider.

"At a recent open track-riding day we attended, we were stunned to see the amount of riders who were wasting a lot of time and physical effort using the clutch to upshift. The continuous rise and gradual fall of the engine's rpm between each shift as bikes roared by us in the pits had us wondering if there was an epidemic of slipping clutch plates that we didn't know about. While it may be an important ritual for beginner or novice riders, using the clutch for upshifts during aggressive canyon or track riding is totally unnecessary. In fact, there are many riding situations where it can be a nuisance and even a hindrance to quicker and smoother riding."

Edited June 10, 2013 by Blitz

[J_Copeland]

Clutchless upshifting,I do it all the time with little effort.Once you get use to it,it works perfect.

I always use the clutch when downshifting.

[Mary#17]

When I was racing, clutchless upshifts were the norm but you were always on the gas.  You can do it on the street but typically in commuter settings or traffic, it would probably be a bad idea. 

 

Sounds like you might need to work on your technique.

 

Mary

[sirepair]

Motorcycle transmissions do not have synchronizers.  They utilize "constant mesh" gear boxes, which keep all the pairs of gears meshed together, then slide the gears on/off of the splined portions of the transmission.  Couple of videos: 

   

 

Clutchless shifting (power-shifting, quick shifting) has been utilized for many years.  Not something new! IIRC, constant mesh gearboxes were first used in race cars in the 50's.

 

Basically, all you need to do is relieve the torque being applied to the gear-set to allow the sets to slide on the main and/or counter shafts. Using the clutch is one way, reducing power (rolling slightly off the gas) is another.

 

By applying a slight amount of pressure on the shift lever, then rolling slightly off of the gas, the gear change is quickly made.  Up-shifts are easiest, but down-shifts can be done this way too.  Takes more practice and is less "forgiving" though.

 

With the slipper clutches now available on many sport bikes, clutchless down-shifts are a piece of cake.

[cOoTeR]

I can shift just as fast with the clutch. I'd rather do something I know wont hurt my bike vs something that could. I would suggest you work on your technique. If you're shifting at high rpms like you should be and the tach is dropping back down to idle, you probably should work on your clutch work.

Sounds like you are doing the clutchless upshifts wrong.

[cOoTeR]

My clutch work is just fine. Ive been riding a vehicle with a clutch since the age of 6,whether it was a dirtbike or a tractor. The way this bike revs (and I'm sure many newer bikes) no human could shift into the next gear before the engine falls to idle or low enough to not be smooth getting into the next gear.

I'll trust Sport Rider.

"At a recent open track-riding day we attended, we were stunned to see the amount of riders who were wasting a lot of time and physical effort using the clutch to upshift. The continuous rise and gradual fall of the engine's rpm between each shift as bikes roared by us in the pits had us wondering if there was an epidemic of slipping clutch plates that we didn't know about. While it may be an important ritual for beginner or novice riders, using the clutch for upshifts during aggressive canyon or track riding is totally unnecessary. In fact, there are many riding situations where it can be a nuisance and even a hindrance to quicker and smoother riding."

Your clutch work isn't fine if you are dropping to idle on your shifts and it is jerky. Sounds like you are letting out of the clutch and slamming it then getting on the gas. if its not smooth you are doing it wrong. But yes clutchless is better if you keep your rpms up. Some bikes take a little less thought to clutchless upshift than others.

[Revelstoker]

Bike has a clutch for a reason, use it.

 

Yes, you can do clutchless upshifts and it won't hurt the bike if done properly but I view this this is a racing thing.

 

I see no reason to do it on the street or even on a track day. There are no trophies, awards or $$ to win. Just $$ to waste if you screw up and wad your tranny.

[cOoTeR]

Bike has a clutch for a reason, use it.

 

Yes, you can do clutchless upshifts and it won't hurt the bike if done properly but I view this this is a racing thing.

 

I see no reason to do it on the street or even on a track day. There are no trophies, awards or $$ to win. Just $$ to waste if you screw up and wad your tranny.

The reason it has a clutch is to get fron N to first and get first rolling. Clutchless shifts are easier on the engine and drive train. Improper shifting with the clutch can be just as damaging as improper clutchless upshifts. Using the clutch does not save you from errors and damage.

[Limitedslip7]

I only use the clutch on my '04 R6 for starting from a stop or when I'm not quickly accelerating/deccelerating. Any other time it will easily upshift by preloading the shifter a bit then easing the throttle for a split second. For downshifts I either maintain the throttle position or blip it depending on the situation. I would say my clutchless shifts are at least 2-3x faster than when I use the clutch. I haven't broken anything yet...

Edited June 10, 2013 by Limitedslip7

[sirepair]

Bike has a clutch for a reason, use it.

 

Yes, you can do clutchless upshifts and it won't hurt the bike if done properly but I view this this is a racing thing.

 

I see no reason to do it on the street or even on a track day. There are no trophies, awards or $$ to win. Just $$ to waste if you screw up and wad your tranny.

 

I have to disagree with this.  There is no reason to consider this a "racing thing".  It may be considered more of an "advanced technique" of shifting.  Done properly, there is LESS wear and tear on the bike, because you are not using the clutch (wear item). 

 

I am riding a '93 ST1100 with 151,000+ miles on the original clutch and gear box.  I utilize clutchless shifting frequently, almost always when shifting from 2-3-4-5 (still hunting for 6th ;-) )  As with ANY riding technique, it takes practice.  Even shifting WITH a clutch takes practice!  But I would not discourage a rider from learning how to do this.

[Moto-Brian]

These topics are always funny.  Everything from damaging the clutch by using the clutch vs clutchless to wide open throttle and clutchless upshifts.  Not to mention the guys doing clutchless downshifts...

 

All I can say is from riding for over 20 plus years and most at the track, technique is everything.  

 

Clutchless upshifts can be problematic if done poorly.  Stress from you pushing or lifting the lever can cause damage.  Namely shift forks.  Even today's bikes with quick shifters can show wear on the forks.  Happens all the time.  No common, but happens.  The big thing is just like the video and article elude to, you need to unload the tranny.  Load is applied by you WOT and the tranny is working while under that applied load.  You try and clutchless w/o releasing the throttle for a quick second will bend shit.  You are damaging things...

 

Clutchless vs clutch...  The clutch will win.  Why?  Unloading the tranny.  Yes, guys can slip the clutch and ride the clutch - blah, blah, blah.  You are wearing the fibers and steels and not damaging the forks and tranny gears.  Sure, you can do something really stupid and damage the tranny, but the clutch being pulled in releases all load on the tranny.  Waiting for revs to drop, clicking in and releasing from low RPMs isn't killing the tranny...

 

WOT clutchless?  Not sure I've ever seen anyone with any type of skill level doing this.  Unless they have a quick shifter.  Quick shifters allow this, but are doing what we did when we didn't have them - cutting the power slightly allows for a change in gears.  I have my QS set at something like 5 milliseconds.  You can't do that with a throttle hand...  But to do it w/o a QS?  I don't see it happening without bending shit...

 

Clutchless downshifts - I DO NOT recommend this.  I know guys do it and I know some have said they do it all the time.  I do not see this happening in a spirited street ride and certainly not on the track.  But, to each their own.  Never did it, tried it nor know of anyone I race or ride with that has/have...  YMMV as they say, but I think that the tranny was never designed to do this and blipping the throttle to match revs is important and something that will sustain the life of the tranny.  Clutchless doesn't allow for this and is a bad idea.  Hell, some of the more advanced bikes are starting to implement computerized throttle blips on downshifts.  Like cars...  Pretty cool, but tells the story that clutchless downshifts are probably a bad idea...

 

Anyways, keep on keeping on and do what suits you.  Everyone has a different take and different story to tell.  I only know that the way we used to do it before QSs and the way we do it now...

[DerekClouser]

I have a 98 CBR 900rr.. I'm not sure if I'm doing it wrong or if the clutchless shifting wasn't developed for the bike, but I'll preload the lever, roll off the throttle, but the shifter won't let me shift unless I just very lightly apply pressure to the clutch lever, I don't fully compress the lever, but curious if I was doing it wrong or if my bike is designed this way.

 

 

And of course, I always apply the clutch when downshifting (6th gear towards 1st gear).

 

Any ideas because I definitely want to be able to protect the clutch plates as much as possible and add to my repertoire of skills.

[20thGix]

Intown and just cruising around i use the clutch. At lower RPM's intown it seems to be jerky or not as smooth. When being a bit more aggresive i go clutchless upshifts 2nd thru 6th. Also i think switching to GP shifting helps alot. I find it easier to push down on the shifter especially when going from 1st to 2nd.

Edited June 10, 2013 by 20thGix

[RHill]

I clutchless up shift almost all the time, and occasionally clutchless down shift while coasting at low rpm with a small amount of roll on.

[redkow97]

I can shift just as fast with the clutch.

 

I bet a drag-race proves you wrong.

 

If you're not in a drag race, then you're right in the sense that it's unnecessary, but I only use the clutch from 1-2, or under light acceleration.

[jporter12]

If you don't understand the basic operation of a motorcycle transmission, then you should stick to using the clutch. For the rest of us...we'll just keep breaking our motorcycles.

 

THIS!  

 

Even on my little 250, I only use the clutch for taking off, and 1-2 shifting.  On that bike you need every little bit of technique possible!  I downshift without the clutch when I'm slowing down, otherwise it's a quick partial pull of the clutch lever, and crank the throttle as I let out on the clutch.

 

One important thing is to chop enough throttle to let the shifter completely cycle.  I will occasionally get back into the throttle too fast and the shifter won't return to make the next shift.  It might also be just my old foot moving too slow, but once back on the throttle, the load will not let the shifter reset like it should, resulting in missing the next shift.

 

Some bikes "like" to shift without the clutch, others take a more precise technique to do so.  The Interceptor 500 that I had would shift without the clutch easily, and the Ninja 250 took a bit more finesse.

 

Probably the best technique to learn is the finesse of just barely pulling the lever, as you have a light pressure on the shifter.  Light pull on the clutch while chopping the throttle (slightly, just enough to keep the RPM's from flaring) will let the shifter go on into the next gear.  This will alleviate the damage you could be causing by shifting without the clutch, and minimize the wear on the clutch.  It's all about knowing your bike, the clutch friction points (where it starts to grab, AND where it starts to release), how much pressure the shifter takes, and how much throttle to chop.  Practice is the only answer!

[Blitz]

The throw on my clutch lever on my new bike is a lot longer than it was on my ZX6r, and it's also not adjustable.  This may be a reason my shifts have been less smooth with a clutch also.  But having ridden any manner of dirt bike, motorcycle, or clutched vehicle for years I find it funny that I am being advised to work on my technique by those who put out dire warnings of bike damage for a "technique" they aren't familiar or comfortable with.

 

If Sport Rider magazine is willing to disseminate this information, I sincerely doubt these motorcycle experts are urging the masses and their audience to destroy their gearboxes.   And when they say "While it may be an important ritual for beginner or novice riders, using the clutch for upshifts during aggressive canyon or track riding is totally unnecessary" I tend to think I may not be the only one that "needs to work on my technique", as using the clutch seems to only be necessary for beginning or novice riders.

 

[Gixxus Christ!]

Sounds like you are doing the clutchless upshifts wrong.

I generally don't do them because I don't see a few tenths of a second making a big difference in me getting to work on time or getting any more enjoyment out of my pleasure rides. The tach on my TL drops incredibly quickly due to a super light cank and super high back-compression from two 500cc pistons and it still never drops anywhere near idle during a shift. I'd say the rpms on it or my bandit don't drop more than a grand during shifts, if that. Maybe OP needs an adjustable clutch lever or needs to adjust out his free play?

Sure clutchless shifts are probably fine, but are they necessary for street riding? Probably not.

Hey, what's the best oil to use in my bike? And should I carry a glock or a 1911? Ak or AR? 9mm or .45? Yoshimura or D&D?

Opinions are like assholes, we all got them.

Assholes are like a 9v battery, even tho you know you shouldn't, everyone has put their tongue on one at some point in time.

[Blitz]

There's no free play, but I'd agree that I ned an adjustable lever. That was my initial solution to the problem. And dropping to idle was an exaggeration, but it does drop enough that I far prefer the smoothness of not using the clutch at all and for the day that I spent shifting without the clutch there was never an instance where I felt I was doing any damage but instead felt like the correct way to execute the upshift as it was so much smoother. If it was a technique problem though, it would have existed on my last bike and that's not the case.

In regards to Sport Rider, these guys ride bikes and write about them as a career every day of their lives. They are the sole repository for suggested suspension settings that I see linked to on motorcycle forums everywhere.... so they do have some credibility. I mean we aren't talking about The Birmingham Motorcycle Journal or something. Now I'm not saying they are the motorcycle bible. But if they recommend a riding technique I have to think they aren't going to put in print something that is going to wreck their readerships transmissions.

[Gixxus Christ!]

EBay up a set of pazzo knock-offs. They look the shit and are 6 way adjustable at a fraction of the cost of some pazzos.