Constructive Criticism

[donkason]

I got a Go Pro this year so I can review my riding and work on making myself better.  I have a short list of things I see needing work but I wanted to post up a 2 lap clip from Mid Ohio and have some of you guys look it over and help give me some pointers and areas to improve. 

 

Things I've noticed so far, I coast through the turns at neutral throttle then tend to ham fist it on the exit and my body position is inconsistent.  I was watching bchristy's video and he seems to build speed the second he is done tipping in.  Soemtimes I drop my head low and to the side in turns and sometimes I keep it up and twist my upper body. 

 

 

Advice is welcome and thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

[TMonhollen]

That looks....terrifying lol. You're practically sideways! I have a lot to learn

[blue03636]

First thing I see is that your upper body never moves. It weighs more than your ass, if you get it shifted inside it will help with lean angle.

[jbot]

maybe do more lunges and squats.  it'll help to tone up dat azzzzzz

 

 

ok, now that the gay jokes are out of the way, tell us a bit about yourself:

what kind of times are you running there? that will help us determine whether we are even qualified to give you advice

are there specific corners you have issues with? running wide somewhere, inconsistent lines elsewhere, getting passed, blah blah blah

are you hoping to race, do track days, king of intermediate... what are your goals?

[donkason]

maybe do more lunges and squats.  it'll help to tone up dat azzzzzz

 

 

ok, now that the gay jokes are out of the way, tell us a bit about yourself:

what kind of times are you running there? that will help us determine whether we are even qualified to give you advice

are there specific corners you have issues with? running wide somewhere, inconsistent lines elsewhere, getting passed, blah blah blah

are you hoping to race, do track days, king of intermediate... what are your goals?

My legs are plenty strong and my ass is tight like a tiger!

 

My best is a 1:43 but I wasn't close to it that day.  I think I ran 1:47-1:49's all day.  I dropped 20lbs and didn't do any real adjustments to my suspension so it felt different.  My front end was pushing everywhere due to too much rebound dampening.  I was just breaking my winter rust off.  My lines are good when I hit them.  Turn one is tough for me.  You'll see the first lap I pooch it and run up on the rumble strip.  The second lap I hit it rather well.  Also the big swooping uphill right into thunder valley need some work.  I could be a lot faste there. 

 

and I don't care if you are running 2:10 lap times advice is advice and anybody is qualified to help me out

 

My goal is to race eventually when I figure out what the hell I'm doing.  Right now I'm pretty quick for I and I would like to hit A after the next few track days. 

[bchristy07]

I would say take your next day to work on the body positioning.. A lot of people do what you're doing in the video, get the ass off, but the upper body stays twisted facing the triple.. Use a stand and someone to hold your bike, practice getting your whole body off the bike with your chest facing where you are wanting to go.. I had a lot of trouble with that last year and when you open your chest up to where you're going, it helps out a lot with getting your head turned & looking at where you need to go. So chest down, and opened up, keep the arms relaxed. I found out at nelson I was fighting the bike in every turn.. Once I quit holding on with a death grip I was able to actually hold a decent line. You'll take seconds off just pushing a bit more into T1, 2,3,6..hell everywhere.. just my 2 cents

[RHill]

^opening up your shoulders into the turn naturally drops your whole upper body down....try it with the gopro on the tail and you will be surprised

 

Another thing that helps enforce getting the head/upper body over: Remember that you should be able to see the outside of your front fairing....so if you have a sticker where the mirror would be mounted, you should be able to read it.

 

I still ride crossed up a lot(riding a fast pace then hitting traffic really screws me up), but those two things have helped me with upper body positioning. 

[BDBGoalie]

^opening up your shoulders into the turn naturally drops your whole upper body down....try it with the gopro on the tail and you will be surprised

 

Another thing that helps enforce getting the head/upper body over: Remember that you should be able to see the outside of your front fairing....so if you have a sticker where the mirror would be mounted, you should be able to read it.

 

I still ride crossed up a lot(riding a fast pace then hitting traffic really screws me up), but those two things have helped me with upper body positioning. 

 

I was taught that your hips and your shoulders should match. Elsewise the advantage you get by hanging off is mitigated by your upper body weight staying centered and higher.

 

Using the mirror location as a goal for your head placement seems to help. Same for aiming to have your knuckles in the center of your chest. Stretching your knee out helps turn the bike as well. Of course always looking through the corner.

I can't see your feet, but I find it easier if I move the balls of my feet from the inside of the pegs to the edges/sides of them. Seems like I get better rotation that way.

 

You can practice on your street bike in twisty sections, just keep the speed down. I can have a blast running a few routes hanging off the bike, but not leaning the bike crazy. I just consider knee down to be off limits on the streets due to speed required and road conditions. It has let me build a decent comfort zone. Muscle memory always helps me.

 

As far as corner acceleration, try dropping a gear. It was amazing how the keyhole got easier just by hitting it in second instead of third.

[turnone]

Also recommend sliding your ass back to the rear of the seat. I still forget this sometimes. But when I get it right it makes ass over, head pointing to the mirror body position easier. Knee down is okay for me, when I misjudge I hang off further, and if necessary tuck knee back up to bike and lean even more. Knee out is just a 'feeler' for lean angle. Knee close to bike with slider/puck on the ground is my absolute limit.

[blue03636]

You should point your chest and dick into the corner so everything is in alignment. You want your inside elbow bent to help keep pressure off the bars. This is also done by locking into the tank.

[turnone]

Seems you are early to get off the throttle and slow to pick it back up.  Faster lap times will be had when you spend more time on the gas.  Get your braking technique down and get back on the gas early and be smooth as possible.

 

Chris

[ZxHooligan]

I've never tracked a bike but have done cars it looks like from the video that you don't accelerate hard enough out of the corners. This is solved by getting on the gas earlier into the corneraround the halfway point. Remember the more speed you carry out of the corner the quicker you are in the straights. I was taught you brake before the corner and accelerate hard around and out of the corner. That is if you can hold the grip. When I ride twisties on my bike I brake hard before the corner and acclerate through it. I do have a hard time with sustaining enough grip to carry through the corners sometimes under super hard acceleration

Edited June 14, 2013 by ZxHooligan

[owndjoo]

overall I thought you looked like you had a good base to work with.  I agree that getting the upper body off center would help.  I have always been known for my hanging way off the bike.  I finally developed the idea that the upper body is more important as A. it contains more weight B. you can get your head looking through the corner easier C. you can get your upper body farther off (reduce lean angle/stand the bike up on the fat of the tire).  keeping your bottom more grounded to the bike makes it much much easier in transitioning.  I used to hang my butt off with my upper body and it made a lot of extra work.  now in a long, fast corner I will still get my ass off as much as possible to carry some more corner speed.

 

Also, remember that flexibility/comfort will determine what is the right position for you.  Ive raced with quite a few guys that sit up, rotate their posterior, and just lay the bike way over on their knee (Westby) as well as others that are between that style and my style. Ofcourse I am a 6'2" giant on a 600, so I have to adjust my style compared to a smaller person. 

 

Now when it comes to the speed/throttle/braking portion, this is going to be a lot of feel/confidence/experience.  You do seem to be off the throttle/coasting a good bit.  This is often a confidence issue with the throttle.  The key here is to constantly work on throttling on earlier and earlier.  A good rule is to brake, tip in, roll on(maintenance throttle), and depending on the corner setup begin accelerating right at apex.  When and how quickly you twist it on will vary greatly with lean/speed/grip/etc.  The nice thing is that the more entry/mid-corner speed you carry, the less harsh you are with the throttle.  It truly becomes a smooth transition from brakes to throttle.

Edited June 14, 2013 by owndjoo

[donkason]

Wow! I'm glad I asked. It sounds like my main issue is getting my upper body off the bike for a better center of gravity and less lean angle. I thought I was getting better at this but the go-pro tells the real story. I'm really corkscrewed in a turn.

Sometimes I've played with sort of pushing the bike upright and hanging my body off until my outside forearm is laying across the tank. It's a bit hard for me because I'm 6'2" and 225lbs so my elbows sit on my knees and i get bound up. It'll take some time. I'm also going to put some blue tape where my mirror should be as a reference to where my head should be. If I can see it I should probably be okay.

And pointing my dick through the corner, that is hilarious and true.

My throttle, it seemed neutral most if the time and I wasn't hard enough out of the corners. Sorta felt like a bitch after seeing it. That'll take time and balls. I'm slowly getting there. I think I'll gain confidence from better body positioning since it will allow a more upright position and less feedback from the bike spooking me.

Braking is another one. I don't trail brake much, yet don't get on the juice early enough to justify parking the bike before tipping in. I'm running Pilot Pures now and the carcass is hard with little warning to slippage. I had my front wash out a few times with little warning. The last time cost me an ambulance ride. I'm softening my rebound dampening to adjust as well.

Any of you A riders have video post it up so I can see how you're doing it, please and thank you. Time to be a student and figure out how to hang ride this thing like I mean it.

I really appreciate all your help. This track day thing is the best worst habit I've ever had. Thanks to BDBGoalie for getting me into this mess. I'm sitting here with this little souvenir in my wrist stretching doing PT so I can get my bike fixed and get back out there.

[Moto-Brian]

overall I thought you looked like you had a good base to work with.  I agree that getting the upper body off center would help.  I have always been known for my hanging way off the bike.  I finally developed the idea that the upper body is more important as A. it contains more weight B. you can get your head looking through the corner easier C. you can get your upper body farther off (reduce lean angle/stand the bike up on the fat of the tire).  keeping your bottom more grounded to the bike makes it much much easier in transitioning.  I used to hang my butt off with my upper body and it made a lot of extra work.  now in a long, fast corner I will still get my ass off as much as possible to carry some more corner speed.

 

Also, remember that flexibility/comfort will determine what is the right position for you.  Ive raced with quite a few guys that sit up, rotate their posterior, and just lay the bike way over on their knee (Westby) as well as others that are between that style and my style. Ofcourse I am a 6'2" giant on a 600, so I have to adjust my style compared to a smaller person. 

 

Now when it comes to the speed/throttle/braking portion, this is going to be a lot of feel/confidence/experience.  You do seem to be off the throttle/coasting a good bit.  This is often a confidence issue with the throttle.  The key here is to constantly work on throttling on earlier and earlier.  A good rule is to brake, tip in, roll on(maintenance throttle), and depending on the corner setup begin accelerating right at apex.  When and how quickly you twist it on will vary greatly with lean/speed/grip/etc.  The nice thing is that the more entry/mid-corner speed you carry, the less harsh you are with the throttle.  It truly becomes a smooth transition from brakes to throttle.

 

This guy!  Drew's body position was always awesome.  Kind of the first guy I saw that was doing a damn near drag elbow body position...  

 

My $.02...  I'm a traditional style guy.  My riding style is pretty damn boring vs. the cool kids.  But, the basics are head down and pointed towards the ground and eyes on the prize - exit of the turn.  Elbows like Craig stated and loose inside arm.

 

The push the butt back on the seat can work, but not always the case.  I ride the front more so, I am up against the tank vs. the tail.

 

The BIGGEST thing is that there is NO PERFECT WAYS to do riding style.  Look at any of the top racers in any series.  Very different riding styles.  What works for you may not work for someone else.  Get the ass off, get the upper body positioned and the head.  Fundamentals and work from there...

[Moto-Brian]

I got some vids, but can't post being out in the country.  I got them on the laptop if you're at the track sometime.  I am going to do more body shots, but not many though...

[bchristy07]

a video from last yr, different perspective I guess. I still wasnt opening up my chest as much though

[gixxie750]

What gearing r u running?  Looks like you are fine just lugging the bike allot.  I'd say work on shifting up and down more.  

[donkason]

-1+2 gearing. I've kept it in a higher gear to smooth out my riding and allow forgiveness with throttle control. What corners sound the worst for lugging? I know turn 8, the camel hump, I run in 4th and that's pretty high.

Thanks for the video Bchristy.

[owndjoo]

I feel you on the being 6'2" part. Here is a picture from the RRGC a few years ago of me in the Keyhole. Notice how I have only about a buttcheek off the bike and leading with my face.  The cool thing is that my knee is actually touching the faring and the track while dragging the elbow and toe sliders. As soon as I pick up the throttle here, I keep my upper body down and "slowly" stand the bike up. This helps with getting grip/finishing the corner/and I am grabbing a gear while still leaned.  This is also a pretty slow corner coming onto the long straight, I try to keep my butt more centered to help with the drive off.   I've also included a few other shots showing different amounts of hang off for different corners(fast, slow, trailbraking, etc) each type of corner needs to be attacked differently.

Turn 1 Mid-O, lots of grip  and wide open throttle. Notice as a tall guy, keep elbows outside/on top of your knees. you can pretty much rest them there.

This is WAAAY off the bike, keeping the lean angle to a minimum. One of my first 600 races, so you can see how I progressed my style.

 

and just for fun... Remember your hands should be LIGHT on the bars. This is a great way to remind yourself and loosen your arms up.

 

 

another BIG thing that I brought from my mx days, and i'm sure Brian would agree.  Weighing the outside peg on hard acceleration/drive off style corners. This will help stand the bike up on the tire, and creates downward leveraged force on the tire itself.  It is an absolute must on the dirt, and once I applied it to my road course riding, I noticed a big change on my corner exit drives.

[bchristy07]

another BIG thing that I brought from my mx days, and i'm sure Brian would agree.  Weighing the outside peg on hard acceleration/drive off style corners. This will help stand the bike up on the tire, and creates downward leveraged force on the tire itself.  It is an absolute must on the dirt, and once I applied it to my road course riding, I noticed a big change on my corner exit drives.

 

+1

this helped me out quite a bit last year as well

[jbot]

that is some gangster level body positioning. i'm taking notes.