Moto-Brian Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I think everyone that bought the RS for 40k knew that the mass produced model would have some nice improvements and cost 1/2 the price. It shouldn't be any surprise. Hopefully, the next one is even better and less expensive. The reviews & comparisons should tell us if it's worth 19 large.Again, the RS has race spec engine internals. This is more production type stuff. The price tag on the RS makes sense. There are no improvements over the RS in the new RX... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I got to admit I am kinda bummed. When I was told about the details of this bike over a year ago, target price point was $16k-ish. At the asking price, the bike is $1k more than the 1199, weighs 40 lbs more, 10 hp less and has lower end components.I almost took a job with EBR so, this isn't a deal where I am promoting Ducati. All I am saying is that EBR has a tough road ahead. They are competing with brands that have a much higher recognition rate and are making bikes that are higher performance. We will see in the tests that come out, but KTM will be updating their RC8 also and I fear that EBR will be dumped into the deep end of the pool with the sharks. Versus the dealer networks and supply chains of the OEMs that it will face, it's going to be hard...Bike looks great as expected. I am sure it is a great handling bike also. It's just a couple years behind what is current and will be a tough sale at $19k... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 There are no improvements over the RS in the new RX... Incorrect, but thanks for sharing your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Yeah I saw that, I am not sure that is such a good choice on EBR's part.The RS has struggled keeping pace in AMA competition, so it will be interesting to see how they will do. Good on them if they have the resources to give it go, and it would be nice to see them succeed at it too. the rules are structured so differently in AMA superbike and World Superbike that they really have no relevance to each other. I'm not familiar enough with either series' rules to expound all that much further on the subject, but suffice to say that WSBK allows modifications that AMA doesn't. Those allowances could put the EBR on a more level playing field than the AMA rules allow. The BMW might be a good example. It kind of fell on its face when Pegram tried to race it at the AMA level, but it's done pretty well in WSBK. I can't definitively say that's due to the rules and not the rider, but I think it's a reasonable theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LINK Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I think some forget that the RS is/was sold as a street bike, not the complete race bike that is seen in AMA, sure EBR claimed to be able to ride the RS in with street trim, remove it, race it, that was not true, and proven not to be the case. The most noticeable upgrade for the RX over the RS is electronics (traction control), the RS does not have it, added to the AMA race bike just this past season... a different, supposed to be better, mount for the front brakes is another, and there are others too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LINK Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 the rules are structured so differently in AMA superbike and World Superbike that they really have no relevance to each other. I'm not familiar enough with either series' rules to expound all that much further on the subject, but suffice to say that WSBK allows modifications that AMA doesn't. Those allowances could put the EBR on a more level playing field than the AMA rules allow. The BMW might be a good example. It kind of fell on its face when Pegram tried to race it at the AMA level, but it's done pretty well in WSBK. I can't definitively say that's due to the rules and not the rider, but I think it's a reasonable theory.I agree to a point, and I am also not familiar with the rules, or format of either series... but I do know EBR has a hard time keeping that engine together, rather that is caused from the limits, or restrictions, placed on them from the AMA rules, or that the engine being used has reached the limits that it can handle, not sure? Maybe they are developing a whole new engine for this, again, not sure on the rules?Erik has discussed a 3 cylinder in an interview I watched some time ago, and I am sure there are several other options he has considered too, V4 maybe?If he stays with Rotax they make many different engines, so he should be able make a sound decision on what will work with their assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) Geoff May announced he will be racing the new 1190RX (not the RS) in WSBK next year. Also, EBR will be distributing Hero motorcycles in the US starting in 2014. I suspect that Hero $$ will be used to establish the EBR dealer network. Edited October 17, 2013 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 perhaps this should be split into a separate thread, but which Hero models are going to be sold in the US? They look cheap and small, but Buell needs cheap(er) and small(er) bikes in their showrooms. You can't count on every Tom Dick and Harry to buy a $40k or even a $20k superbike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) I read once (not positive it's true) that Hero is 2nd to Honda in motorcycles sold world wide. I doubt if any Hero models will be sold in the US as is, except for maybe a scooter. EBR has been working with Hero since 2011 on R&D projects. I strongly suspect those projects were to develop Hero models for the US. I bet we'll see Hero models to compete with the Ninja 300 and the CBR500. Edited October 17, 2013 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 based on their website, the lineup is currently 223cc and 149cc air-cooled singles. They claim to be the largest 2-wheeled vehicle manufacturer. Maybe that applies for companies that produce motorcycles exclusively? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LINK Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 If so, they will have their hands full, as the others will too (Kawasaki & Honda), with the KTM 390 that is expected here in the States, if the 390 is as good as it has been made out to be anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/614/17212/Motorcycle-Article/2014-EBR-1190RX-First-Look.aspx http://rideapart.com/2013/10/2014-ebr-1190rx-first-photos-and-specs/ Edited October 17, 2013 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhsv Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 ^^Where is this strong Aprilia dealer network??? I've never seen it. Ducati's dealer support is better than Aprilia, but it's no Honda. Well I just checked the Aprilia web site and acording to it, there are 7 dealers in Ohio alone. So as far as I know thats exactly 7 more aprilia dealerships in Ohio then there are Buell dealerships in America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 (edited) Incorrect, but thanks for sharing your opinion.Uh, name them. The internal components of the RX are lower end than the RS. The suspension isn't Ohlins like the RS. Please elaborate.Oh, and they will have to race the RX due to rules. They need 500 and then 2000. So, they have to race it. But they will have the hand assembled components found on the RS like the way they am.chine the heads and the rods they use, etc. they will also use the Ohlins components. Also, the RS has magnesium alloy components not found on the RX. Etc., etc... Edited October 18, 2013 by Desmo-Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 (edited) Uh, name them. The internal components of the RX are lower end than the RS. The suspension isn't Ohlins like the RS. Please elaborate.Oh, and they will have to race the RX due to rules. They need 500 and then 2000. So, they have to race it. But they will have the hand assembled components found on the RS like the way they am.chine the heads and the rods they use, etc. they will also use the Ohlins components. Also, the RS has magnesium alloy components not found on the RX. Etc., etc...Umm...how about the obvious ones: RS no traction control. RX 21 level traction control. RX makes both more hp and tq.Much nicer gauges/readout.Then there's this, "The 1190RX builds off the RS model, but EBR claims development of 426 different parts for its latest offering."It's all a progression. EBR made the RS on a shoestring budget, they were tiny and it was their first bike. The RX has another 2 years of racing, development, and research behind it. Not to mention a much bigger development budget due to dollars from Hero.I understand that the RS has high end components and was had built, but to say the RX has no improvements is well...incorrect. Edited October 18, 2013 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Umm...how about the obvious ones:RS no traction control. RX 21 level traction control.RX makes both more hp and tq.Much nicer gauges/readout.Then there's this, "The 1190RX builds off the RS model, but EBR claims development of 426 different parts for its latest offering."It's all a progression. EBR made the RS on a shoestring budget, they were tiny and it was their first bike. The RX has another 2 years of racing, development, and research behind it. Not to mention a much bigger development budget due to dollars from Hero.I understand that the RS has high end components and was had built, but to say the RX has no improvements is well...incorrect. I enjoy the smart ass and all knowing. Run with what you think you know and I'll just sit back and watch. Yes, it has TC. Yes, it has TFT. But the internals are NOT the same. They are mass production parts and not the one off and hand built motors they had in the RS. Believe what you want, kind sir. I guess you put Magnesium wheels, full trick Ohlins front and back, and more race components on the inferior bike, huh? The RX is a MORE streetable machine for the masses. Yes, it has the TC, it has the TFT display and yes, it has component differences than that of the RS. But the RS is a bike that has a motor that is containing components found on a fully race spec'd bike. The rods, the crank, the matching the heads, etc. All race oriented. And if you think that they are going to race the RX in WSBK, you're right as they need to produce a set amount before they can. The RS will not fit that bill due to the amount of work each unit takes and the cost. Like Ducati in WSBK, they had to produce a set number of the bikes to meet rules. If you think the 1199 RS13 is a production racer, you are mistaken. It is the work of Corse and taking an 1199R and building it to be a WSBK machine. Same will happen with the RX. They will use the production of that bike to meet rules. The bike they will race will be as far from the showroom version as Earth is to Mars. Same with AMA. The interesting component will be the forks on the RX for AMA use. But again, they had produced enough units for AMA rules and I suspect that they will actually use the RS platform still unless they have been working on the RX motor and being able to use it as a platform much like Yamaha is with their R1. Meaning, the newer motor does have more claimed HP and even though lower compression, they very well could have developed parts that even in production based products will be sound as a race platform. Cams, cranks, etc are going to have to be production based according to rules. Again, the years they've been racing the RS has allowed them to develop a motor that very well could be what the RX is. Very possible. But I can tell you from first hand experience that the motors in the RS version are as trick as you will see in a "production" unit. It has pure race components inside and thus, the reason for the short intervals for maintenance. The RX will have a LOT longer service interval than that of the RS and that is for obvious reasons that you don't seem to be understanding from what I am saying. I think it is great that you are an enthusiast for the Buell product. Again, I was brought up to see the factory and interviewed for a position there. I think Erik is awesome and I love his passion. But the bikes are very different. I also think that the price point is crazy. It's too much. There isn't the heritage and network that Ducati for example has. over 150 dealers US wide for Ducati and a parts fill rate of 98%+ on parts. I think that EBR will fight the price issue. It certainly will be a decent performance bike and will tug at the heart strings of the fans that have stuck by Erik all these years. It will be cool to watch and how it pans out and I will be rooting for them. But your tone is laughable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 I enjoy the smart ass and all knowing. Run with what you think you know and I'll just sit back and watch. Yes, it has TC. Yes, it has TFT. But the internals are NOT the same. They are mass production parts and not the one off and hand built motors they had in the RS. Believe what you want, kind sir. I guess you put Magnesium wheels, full trick Ohlins front and back, and more race components on the inferior bike, huh? The RX is a MORE streetable machine for the masses. Yes, it has the TC, it has the TFT display and yes, it has component differences than that of the RS. But the RS is a bike that has a motor that is containing components found on a fully race spec'd bike. The rods, the crank, the matching the heads, etc. All race oriented. And if you think that they are going to race the RX in WSBK, you're right as they need to produce a set amount before they can. The RS will not fit that bill due to the amount of work each unit takes and the cost. Like Ducati in WSBK, they had to produce a set number of the bikes to meet rules. If you think the 1199 RS13 is a production racer, you are mistaken. It is the work of Corse and taking an 1199R and building it to be a WSBK machine. Same will happen with the RX. They will use the production of that bike to meet rules. The bike they will race will be as far from the showroom version as Earth is to Mars. Same with AMA. The interesting component will be the forks on the RX for AMA use. But again, they had produced enough units for AMA rules and I suspect that they will actually use the RS platform still unless they have been working on the RX motor and being able to use it as a platform much like Yamaha is with their R1. Meaning, the newer motor does have more claimed HP and even though lower compression, they very well could have developed parts that even in production based products will be sound as a race platform. Cams, cranks, etc are going to have to be production based according to rules. Again, the years they've been racing the RS has allowed them to develop a motor that very well could be what the RX is. Very possible. But I can tell you from first hand experience that the motors in the RS version are as trick as you will see in a "production" unit. It has pure race components inside and thus, the reason for the short intervals for maintenance. The RX will have a LOT longer service interval than that of the RS and that is for obvious reasons that you don't seem to be understanding from what I am saying. I think it is great that you are an enthusiast for the Buell product. Again, I was brought up to see the factory and interviewed for a position there. I think Erik is awesome and I love his passion. But the bikes are very different. I also think that the price point is crazy. It's too much. There isn't the heritage and network that Ducati for example has. over 150 dealers US wide for Ducati and a parts fill rate of 98%+ on parts. I think that EBR will fight the price issue. It certainly will be a decent performance bike and will tug at the heart strings of the fans that have stuck by Erik all these years. It will be cool to watch and how it pans out and I will be rooting for them. But your tone is laughable... You interviewed with Buell...really...yawn. I was flown to the Toyota Headquarters for several interviews, but I don't claim to know fuck all about Toyota. Rather than admit you're statement was incorrect, just point your loud mouth in a different direction and rant on. You're not the first know-it-all I've encountered, and certainly not the last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 You interviewed with Buell...really...yawn. I was flown to the Toyota Headquarters for several interviews, but I don't claim to know fuck all about Toyota. Rather than admit you're statement was incorrect, just point your loud mouth in a different direction and rant on. You're not the first know-it-all I've encountered, and certainly not the last. I stated that as to let you know that I saw the motors being assembled and was walked through the specs of the bikes at the time. I also was told the plan or thought towards the RX that was to be forth coming. Whatever, man. You know it all. His idea was to use the RX as a platform for electronics. He didn't do the RS with electronics due to the sheer costs, etc... By the way, you were interviewed as a possible employee in Japan for the R&D department at Toyota in their skunk works? Wow... Or did you interview for a position running a screw gun at the assembly plant in IN that YOU would consider the "headquarters"? I also think your signature is cute. Can I brag about all the shit piles I've owned? Purdy please? Toolbox. Guess you know more than I do. The RS is a shit motor, the RX is a race built motor and I don't know shit. You win. Yippie on you. Will you add it to your list of sweet whips? I cannot wait and will keep an eye peeled on the list in anticipation of it growing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 By the way, you were interviewed as a possible employee in Japan for the R&D department at Toyota in their skunk works? Wow... Or did you interview for a position running a screw gun at the assembly plant in IN that YOU would consider the "headquarters"? I also think your signature is cute. Can I brag about all the shit piles I've owned? Purdy please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LINK Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Blake and Court, as one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 No anger here. Cool the PM that you sent saying ho many people think it is great when you give me a hard time. The funny part is that we might be saying similar things. Maybe... In the end, I was simply stating that the internal engine components are that of what a top spec race bike would incorporate. The RX is developed upon that R&D that they've done. The components within the RX are simply more resilient to wear and tear and can still produce the same or more hp as the racer. Think about anything. The previous generation "racebike" may have had components such as race type rods, crank, cams, pistons, and other assorted exotic components, but the resulting production bike has much less exotic materials and yet more power and performance. It is evolution. And that is what maybe you are saying... And if so, I guess you are right. But again... The RX will have those exotic type components internally as a racebike. It will have race type suspenders as in WSBK, they do not use the OEM style suspenders. They will be using high level Ohlins stuff. They very well may use the RX platform, but the results will still incorporate the unobtainable and exotice race components that are normally found on bikes. I was saying the RS has components that are better. That produce better returns on performance. At a cost and thus the reason for the price differences between the two. Again, I think we are saying somewhat the same things. But the changes are a lot to do with rider thoughts as a street bike rather than racing. They will not be using the OEM TC as a base for either WSBK (especially) or even AMA... The stuff they use for those series are so much outside what you can imagine... The TC on the RX is for a street guy. Not a racer. The RS didn't need it and they actually refused to use TC as the cost was too much at the time. Now, they will incorporate the TC needed and even if they did on the RS, because it didn't have it made no difference. As a race team is concerned, no matter what the bike comes with, they pitch it anyways. So, why add that cost to production if not needed? The RS would have cost much more if that was there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Well I just checked the Aprilia web site and acording to it, there are 7 dealers in Ohio alone. So as far as I know thats exactly 7 more aprilia dealerships in Ohio then there are Buell dealerships in America. Aprilia's dealer network is really bad actually. They sell maybe 4k units a year. Worldwide. BMW, Triumph and Ducati are about 2% each of the motorcycles sold in this country. They sell about 10-12k a year EACH. We almost hit 11k in 2012. Aprilia? Well... At 4k world wide... you can figure it out... EBR will be facing the likes of these three Euro brands rather than the Japanese brands and HD. They will have a tough battle. At the price point and the small network, it will be a tough set of years, but the Hero branded stuff may help out in putting a foot in the door. But to sell cheaper scooters in the US alongside the numerous brands that already exist and then ask to do a $19k motorcycle is going to be a tough sell in point. I think they should have waited only but a little. In order to get the other two models out. Release a set of 4 machines as a model year vs. a single unit plus an exotic like the RS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhsv Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Aprilia's dealer network is really bad actually. They sell maybe 4k units a year. How so? Is it just crappy dealerships or a lack of parts issue? I've been to Iron Pony and Honda East in Maumee but not to any of they other dealers. My point was more to the fact that there is a readily available dealer network compared to buell. And I agree that they should bring multiple bikes to market to help pull in more customers. I also wounder if these new dealerships are going to be set up to handle XB/1125 Buells or if they will simpley wipe there hands of the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 How so? Is it just crappy dealerships or a lack of parts issue? I've been to Iron Pony and Honda East in Maumee but not to any of they other dealers. My point was more to the fact that there is a readily available dealer network compared to buell. And I agree that they should bring multiple bikes to market to help pull in more customers. I also wounder if these new dealerships are going to be set up to handle XB/1125 Buells or if they will simpley wipe there hands of the past. There's very few solid dealers not usually because the dealer sucks but because the supply networks are so bad. The low production, delays in shipments and the lack of parts and shipping those parts. Their fill rate is not good. Thus, a customer may have a tough time getting what they need when they need it. There are great dealers that are Aprilia dealers no doubt. But, they can only be as good as the company and how they supply things... For example, you've heard about the factory shut downs, correct? Not good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 20, 2013 Report Share Posted October 20, 2013 Plus, Apes are fucking garbage... So dealer network is pretty important. I think they get a bad rap actually. Maybe not since the issues are in relationship to the amount they sell, but I think the bikes like the RSV4 and some older Milles I have seen at the track seem to hold up just fine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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