Electrical Issues (again)

[DerekClouser]

Okay, so here's the deal.

 

I have a 98 CBR 900 rr

 

I've replaced the Reg/Rect and Stator 2x within the last 3 months.

 

The RR has again overheated and melted. Wires that connect from the stator seem okay.

 

When we originally replaced the R/R, it didn't have the OEM wiring harness, so we individually re-wired each wire with a spade connector and placed each into the R/R.

After replacing it again, I bought the wiring harness and re-wired it into the harness to make sure that wasn't the issue. When I went to put on the wiring harness, I realized the 2 wires going back to the battery were a much thicker gauge. When we re-wired originally we used all the same size wires.

 

Would this have been the reason I've been frying my R/R??

I've just recently bought a 2001 R1 R/R because I was told that they were better for my bike. Hopefully this fixes the issues...

 

This most recent time after the bike shut off, I could smell an electrical burn coming from the R/R area.

 

Any other ideas I should check out?

 

Edit: Each time I run a voltage check after replacing the units, they all seemed to charge normally. 13.3 startup - 12.x running, and about 14.0 when revving to 5k. Then after a couple times riding, I've noticed the overheating issues

Edited September 11, 2013 by DerekClouser

[Gixxus Christ!]

I would have left the thicker wires on. Think of electricity as water, the smaller the pipe (wire) the higher the pressure for a given volume. The pressure in this case is heat generated by so much power trying to go through a limited amount of wire. If the r1r/r is supposed to be better, go for it. I would try and find out what gauge wire is supposed to be used where.

[DerekClouser]

I would have left the thicker wires on. Think of electricity as water, the smaller the pipe (wire) the higher the pressure for a given volume. The pressure in this case is heat generated by so much power trying to go through a limited amount of wire. If the r1r/r is supposed to be better, go for it. I would try and find out what gauge wire is supposed to be used where.

 

Yea, we put the bigger gauge on this time, but the R/R was already shot, waiting on the new one to see if it was the issue, but I dont want to go through another R/R until I check through other items.

[mello dude]

The "good" R/Rs have a p/n like FH0xx aa and are newer design MOSFET technology. The "crap" R/Rs have a p/n SH xxxxA. (At least the OEM parts made by Shindengen.) ---- btw highly recommend -  www.roadstercycle.com

 

 

Honda was cheaping out on chargings systems for quite awhile and yours year is from the middle of it. My '98 VFR was part of that too. I rebuilt the whole thing.   -- Anyhoo, here's a list to check the system. Start out buy confirming the battery is good. 

 

Go through all your connectors for burnt leads, dig deep. Crispy wires? Not good. Your gonna have to fix that!  Individual spade connectors dont have enuff cajones to handle the stator to R/R connection. Some guys do a direct solder hookup and others (me) used automotive type Delphi MetriPack connectors that handle high current. 

 

Then---Go through this starting point quick list.  You will need a multimeter too.

Steps:

- Recharge battery overnite - then to take it to Autozone, Batteries Plus,  or similar to load test. -- Good? Bad? – An iffy battery can fake you out and act like a bad R/R. Buy new if needed.

- With good battery fire it up, warm up for a minute or two.

 

These are R/R quick checks---

--- With voltmeter at battery get voltages -- idle volts? 5000 rpm volts? What’s the numbers? Should be in 13ish min idle and in 14s at revs. If in the 12s at idle, try at 1900 rpm.

 

- Check stator

- 1. Pull connector apart. Set meter to resistance. Check pin to pin, 3 yellow wires, A to B, B to C, C to A. What’s  the numbers? 3 separate readings --Should be less than 1.0 ohms.  (Engine off)

- 2. Check continuity from each A,B,C pin to ground, -- -should be infinity - nada nothing. no continuity.  --   3 separate checks. (Engine off, again connector is apart)

- 3. Crank it back up. Do another pin to pin thing, but set meter on AC volts. idle and 5000 rpms. What's da numbers? Should start 15 -20ish and climb 50ish and more.  Again – 3 readings, connector still apart.

- Repeat hot.

This quick list will catch the obvious stuff, but if you need to dig deeper check this chart.

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

Edited September 12, 2013 by mello dude

[Gixxus Christ!]

The "good" R/Rs have a p/n like FH0xx aa and are newer design MOSFET technology. The "crap" R/Rs have a p/n SH xxxxA. (At least the OEM parts made by Shindengen.) ---- btw highly recommend - www.roadstercycle.com

Honda was cheaping out on chargings systems for quite awhile and yours year is from the middle of it. My '98 VFR was part of that too. I rebuilt the whole thing. -- Anyhoo, here's a list to check the system. Start out buy confirming the battery is good.

Go through all your connectors for burnt leads, dig deep. Crispy wires? Not good. Your gonna have to fix that! Individual spade connectors dont have enuff cajones to handle the stator to R/R connection. Some guys do a direct solder hookup and others (me) used automotive type Delphi MetriPack connectors that handle high current.

Then---Go through this starting point quick list. You will need a multimeter too.

Steps:

- Recharge battery overnite - then to take it to Autozone, Batteries Plus, or similar to load test. -- Good? Bad? – An iffy battery can fake you out and act like a bad R/R. Buy new if needed.

- With good battery fire it up, warm up for a minute or two.

These are R/R quick checks---

--- With voltmeter at battery get voltages -- idle volts? 5000 rpm volts? What’s the numbers? Should be in 13ish min idle and in 14s at revs. If in the 12s at idle, try at 1900 rpm.

- Check stator

- 1. Pull connector apart. Set meter to resistance. Check pin to pin, 3 yellow wires, A to B, B to C, C to A. What’s the numbers? 3 separate readings --Should be less than 1.0 ohms. (Engine off)

- 2. Check continuity from each A,B,C pin to ground, -- -should be infinity - nada nothing. no continuity. -- 3 separate checks. (Engine off, again connector is apart)

- 3. Crank it back up. Do another pin to pin thing, but set meter on AC volts. idle and 5000 rpms. What's da numbers? Should start 15 -20ish and climb 50ish and more. Again – 3 readings, connector still apart.

- Repeat hot.

This quick list will catch the obvious stuff, but if you need to dig deeper check this chart.

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

This. Sounds like a pretty fart smeller.

[DerekClouser]

The "good" R/Rs have a p/n like FH0xx aa and are newer design MOSFET technology. The "crap" R/Rs have a p/n SH xxxxA. (At least the OEM parts made by Shindengen.) ---- btw highly recommend -  www.roadstercycle.com

 

 

Honda was cheaping out on chargings systems for quite awhile and yours year is from the middle of it. My '98 VFR was part of that too. I rebuilt the whole thing.   -- Anyhoo, here's a list to check the system. Start out buy confirming the battery is good. 

 

Go through all your connectors for burnt leads, dig deep. Crispy wires? Not good. Your gonna have to fix that!  Individual spade connectors dont have enuff cajones to handle the stator to R/R connection. Some guys do a direct solder hookup and others (me) used automotive type Delphi MetriPack connectors that handle high current. 

 

Then---Go through this starting point quick list.  You will need a multimeter too.

Steps:

- Recharge battery overnite - then to take it to Autozone, Batteries Plus,  or similar to load test. -- Good? Bad? – An iffy battery can fake you out and act like a bad R/R. Buy new if needed.

- With good battery fire it up, warm up for a minute or two.

 

These are R/R quick checks---

--- With voltmeter at battery get voltages -- idle volts? 5000 rpm volts? What’s the numbers? Should be in 13ish min idle and in 14s at revs. If in the 12s at idle, try at 1900 rpm.

 

- Check stator

- 1. Pull connector apart. Set meter to resistance. Check pin to pin, 3 yellow wires, A to B, B to C, C to A. What’s  the numbers? 3 separate readings --Should be less than 1.0 ohms.  (Engine off)

- 2. Check continuity from each A,B,C pin to ground, -- -should be infinity - nada nothing. no continuity.  --   3 separate checks. (Engine off, again connector is apart)

- 3. Crank it back up. Do another pin to pin thing, but set meter on AC volts. idle and 5000 rpms. What's da numbers? Should start 15 -20ish and climb 50ish and more.  Again – 3 readings, connector still apart.

- Repeat hot.

This quick list will catch the obvious stuff, but if you need to dig deeper check this chart.

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

Yea I've got that pdf saved on my computer from all the issues I've been having with it. I'll look at the part number today when it gets shipped. I've done those tests 100 times and they always have the right meter readings when I make the changes but just seems to get really really hot after a short time of riding.

[mello dude]

This. Sounds like a pretty fart smeller.

 

As long as its the fine female type.   

[Gixxus Christ!]

A fart is a fart. Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

[Tpoppa]

Did you replace the stator with an OEM part or rewind?

 

You could try a newer mosfet RR.  I have an extra one from an 07 CBR1000RR.

[whaler]

I have been helping on this issue, and it just does not add up.

 

I was not part of the first fix, but the second we went through everything

 

The stator and RR were Ricks, which have been quality peices with my experiance in the past.

 

We have  checked for bad grounds, shorts, checked all wires with regard to charging system.  The rectifier is in a place with little to know airflow, which I do not like...maybe we should move it to an area with better airflow.

 

Any other info would be appreciated!

[Gixxus Christ!]

Get a zook

[Tpoppa]

I have been helping on this issue, and it just does not add up.

 

I was not part of the first fix, but the second we went through everything

 

The stator and RR were Ricks, which have been quality peices with my experiance in the past.

 

We have  checked for bad grounds, shorts, checked all wires with regard to charging system.  The rectifier is in a place with little to know airflow, which I do not like...maybe we should move it to an area with better airflow.

 

Any other info would be appreciated!

 

I assume Riks is a rewind.  Could it have more winds than OEM and be putting out more watts and frying the RR?

 

More airflow certainly can't hurt.  I've heard of people putting computer fans on RRs.

[DerekClouser]

I assume Riks is a rewind.  Could it have more winds than OEM and be putting out more watts and frying the RR?

 

More airflow certainly can't hurt.  I've heard of people putting computer fans on RRs.

 

 

Yea we discussed the CPU fan this time. Probably going to be what we end up doing.

 

Update: Purchased a R1 R/R this time, but unfortunately just doesn't fit the plug I recently put on for the CBR. I'm sending it back and going back to a CBR R/R. Hopefully I can find one with MOSFET technology...

[Tpoppa]

Yea we discussed the CPU fan this time. Probably going to be what we end up doing.

 

Update: Purchased a R1 R/R this time, but unfortunately just doesn't fit the plug I recently put on for the CBR. I'm sending it back and going back to a CBR R/R. Hopefully I can find one with MOSFET technology...

 

Cut the plugs off the old R/R and solder them onto the new one.  Just use a high temp solder that wont melt.  The 5 wires on any R/R are standard.

[c7fx]

This has been a huge problem for the RR and VFR's of those years. Big problem was that they attached it to the aluminum frame but left an air gap so no heat sink. I was told to get some heat sink paste and apply it between the R/R and the frame to help keep it cool.

 

I built an RR with a complete Carbon fiber Monocoque frame and had to move the R/R behind the motor. From a VFR website I found that people were getting a CPU aluminum heat sink and mounting it on the R/R to help with the heat issue. I mounted mine on a heat sink and also mounted a small cpu fan since mine was behind the motor.  I never had an issue after that.

[DerekClouser]

This has been a huge problem for the RR and VFR's of those years. Big problem was that they attached it to the aluminum frame but left an air gap so no heat sink. I was told to get some heat sink paste and apply it between the R/R and the frame to help keep it cool.

 

I built an RR with a complete Carbon fiber Monocoque frame and had to move the R/R behind the motor. From a VFR website I found that people were getting a CPU aluminum heat sink and mounting it on the R/R to help with the heat issue. I mounted mine on a heat sink and also mounted a small cpu fan since mine was behind the motor.  I never had an issue after that.

 

This sounds like a possible problem, I was mounting it straight to the frame, but the Rick's R/R didn't have any screws included and the previous R/R had a much beefier body so the screws they included were too long. I found some screws that worked, but it's possible that there could have been an air gap... We'll look into using paste among other options to help disperse heat.

[mello dude]

Yea we discussed the CPU fan this time. Probably going to be what we end up doing.

 

Update: Purchased a R1 R/R this time, but unfortunately just doesn't fit the plug I recently put on for the CBR. I'm sending it back and going back to a CBR R/R. Hopefully I can find one with MOSFET technology...

 

Dude - grab this R/R kit..

www.roadstercycle.com

[ReconRat]

From experience with high amp connectors, any corrosion will cause resistance, heat and a melt down.

Make sure all the relevant connections are very clean, and capable of the load.

 

And stay that way.

[mello dude]

From experience with high amp connectors, any corrosion will cause resistance, heat and a melt down.

Make sure all the relevant connections are very clean, and capable of the load.

 

And stay that way.

+ 1 -   --  The stator connector is a weak link on Hondas, (For that matter, the wire gauge stator side on it is damn wimpy too. )

if you dont keep up with them, they could look like,,,

 

That why I like the MetriPack series connectors 450s or 630s for the stator connector. High amp specs and sealed. 

Used this 630 on recent R/R fix it job. (Rated 46 amps)

Edited September 14, 2013 by mello dude

[ReconRat]

Yeah, I've done it to bikes and cars. Once under a van's dash. That one could have resulted in a fire.

[DerekClouser]

From experience with high amp connectors, any corrosion will cause resistance, heat and a melt down.

Make sure all the relevant connections are very clean, and capable of the load.

 

And stay that way.

 

We considered cutting both the plugs off the stator connector and solder them directly together... that should prevent any issues with connection there.

Edited September 14, 2013 by DerekClouser

[ReconRat]

We considered cutting both the plugs off the stator connector and solder them directly together... that should prevent any issues with connection there.

The mil-spec design rules I worked with, said that a proper crimp style connector is a better conductor than a solder joint. A solder joint will also crack from vibration and fail, over time and heat and abuse. Either way, a good strain relief, or shrink tubing, to protect the connections is good.

 

When I was a kid, I tried wire nuts. They fell off immediately. Not meant for vibration. Live and learn.

Edited September 14, 2013 by ReconRat

[mello dude]

The mil-spec design rules I worked with, said that a proper crimp style connector is a better conductor than a solder joint. A solder joint will also crack from vibration and fail, over time and heat and abuse. 

Same thing in the automotive engineering world.....

 

Pic of Delphi connector for stator replacement.......with crimped style terminals....