Curious about the validity

[redbarron77]

 

Thoughts?

[ScubaCinci]

Interesting...it seems like I heard recently that traffic accidents were up and there have been a large number of citations issued for driving impaired (from weed). I think there were some other negative impacts touted but I seem to recall they were minor. I wish they would just legalize it everywhere and rake in the tax $.

[redkow97]

Interesting...it seems like I heard recently that traffic accidents were up and there have been a large number of citations issued for driving impaired (from weed). I think there were some other negative impacts touted but I seem to recall they were minor. I wish they would just legalize it everywhere and rake in the tax $.

 

OVI cases against weed smokers are not as simple as they sound.  There is no marihuana breathalyzer to tell the court how impaired a driver is.  Frankly, it would not be difficult to spend more money prosecuting these people than the court collects in fines and costs.

[bowdog]

Legalize it...You cant convince me that weed is anywhere near as bad as alcohol.

[Tpoppa]

OVI cases against weed smokers are not as simple as they sound.  There is no marihuana breathalyzer to tell the court how impaired a driver is.  Frankly, it would not be difficult to spend more money prosecuting these people than the court collects in fines and costs.

 

I still do not believe there is any conclusive way to prove that someone is currently under the influence of Marijuana.  I understand that courts have convicted people on this charge.  I believe all of them to be bogus convictions unless the person happened to admit to it or plead guilty.

 

Officers looking at the person eye movements or smelling Marijuana is not a reliable way determine if someone is currently under the influence.  Neither is a blood test.  THC stays in your system for 3-30 days.  The effects wear off in just a few hours.

[redkow97]

Legalize it...You cant convince me that weed is anywhere near as bad as alcohol.

 

they have different chemical effects on the brain.  I am by no means an expert, but I have questioned experts on this topic.  My recollection of their opinions is that weed basically slows your decision-making process, whereas alcohol effects the decisions you make. 

 

So if you're drifting over the center-line while high on weed, your ability to react to that quickly is diminished.

 

Under the influence of alcohol, you experience the same delayed reaction, but you're also more inclined to initiate an illegal pass, or a legal pass without enough room to clear oncoming traffic, etc.  So in addition to your reactions being dulled, you're also not processing the decision itself with your full faculties.

 

 

Again, I am not an expert, and that is an EXTREME simplification.

[redkow97]

I still do not believe there is any conclusive way to prove that someone is currently under the influence of Marijuana.  

 

blood test and field sobriety.

 

When a suspect reeks of weed and then falls over during the one-leg-stand test, I think that's adequate circumstantial evidence that they're currently under the influence.   As for the blood testing, THC builds in your fat cells, which is why it shows in a urine screen for 30+ days after you consume it.  But it exits the blood stream quickly enough to use that as a valid indication of intoxication. 

[DAC]

Have also read, Bloomberg or Reuters - I forget which, that there are lasting brain effects for youth.  (Defined as U25)  Permanent memory loss and depression.

[Tpoppa]

blood test and field sobriety.

 

When a suspect reeks of weed and then falls over during the one-leg-stand test, I think that's adequate circumstantial evidence that they're currently under the influence.   As for the blood testing, THC builds in your fat cells, which is why it shows in a urine screen for 30+ days after you consume it.  But it exits the blood stream quickly enough to use that as a valid indication of intoxication. 

I am aware of both of these.  I am still calling shenanigans.

 

How much THC in your system actually impairs your behavior?

The THC levels for a chronic smoker who hasn't smoked in a day or 2, would be higher (pun intended) than a once in a while smoker who just smoked. 

Edited September 10, 2014 by Tpoppa

[redkow97]

I am aware of both of these.  I am still calling shenanigans.

 

How much THC in your system actually impairs your behavior?

The THC levels for a chronic smoker who hasn't smoked in a day or 2, would be higher (pun intended) that a once in a while smoker who just smoked. 

 

My understanding is that the problem you're describing is an issue with urine tests, but that phenomenon is insignificant in blood tests.

[Tpoppa]

I believe both to be unreliable.  With a field sobriety test being even less reliable.

 

Fact is this:  Recreational usage of weed in Colorado and Washington would have never made it to the ballot without courts being able to convict for OVI.  While I believe these OVI tests to be bogus, recreational use wouldn't exist without them.  

[Tpoppa]

Below is from Wikipedia.  Depending on what sources you read, the detection windows will vary slightly, but the basic information seems pretty consistent. 

 

The more frequently you smoke the higher the levels are in your urine and blood even if you are not currently under the influence.  

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_drug_testing

Urine testing[edit]

Marijuana use can be detected up to 2–5 days after exposure for infrequent users; For heavy users: 1–15 days; For chronic users and/or users with high body fat: 1–30 days^[1][2] Under the typical 50 ng/mL cutoff for THC in the United States, an occasional or on-off user would be very unlikely to test positive beyond 3–4 days since the last use, and a chronic user would be unlikely to test positive much beyond 7 days. Using a more sensitive cutoff of 20 ng/mL (less common but still used by some labs), the most likely maximum times are 7 days and 21 days, respectively.^[3]In extraordinary circumstances of extended marijuana use, detection times of more than 30 days are possible in some individuals at the 20 ng/mL cutoff. ^[4] However, one must remember that every individual is different, and detection times can vary due to metabolism or other factors. It also depends on whether actual THC or THC metabolites are being tested for, the latter having a much longer detection time than the former. 

 

Blood testing[edit]

Cannabis is detectable in the blood for approximately 2–3 days after use, with heavy/frequent use detectable in the blood for approximately two weeks.^[14] Because they are invasive and difficult to administer, blood tests are used less frequently. They are typically used in investigations of accidents, injuries and DUIs.

Urine contains predominantly THC-COOH, while hair, oral fluid and sweat contain primarily THC. Blood may contain both substances, with the relative amounts dependent on the recency and extent of usage

[Tpoppa]

If more states legalize it...and I expect they will.  I expect the issue of OVI testing to reach higher level courts, quite possibly the Supreme Court. 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/07/marijuana-dui-bill-passes_0_n_3230947.html

[redbarron77]

I think it was Katt Williams who said, "The Government doesn't care that you are using drugs, they just want to make sure you are using their drugs!"

 

btw - I could be wrong on who said that....

[ScubaCinci]

Sleeping pills? Shit, bitch! Pack a bowl and enjoy your uninterrupted sleep-fest.

Headache? Nigga', please! Hit this joint and let's get some nachos.

I watched my father lose weight way too quickly when he was on morphine, because he didn't feel like eating. He didn't feel like doing anything. I brought him a bag of grass and he stopped taking the morphine. His appetite returned and he was able to have a few more weeks of "quality living", before he finally passed away.

 

You're right. There are so many well documented medicinal uses that it really is a huge crying shame that people are being denied access to something that would increase their quality of life while highly mitigating the possibility of opiate addition/dependency which is part of what is driving the heroin epidemic.

 

When my wife went through chemo, we looked at the legality of medicinal mj in OH but it's still just being reviewed by lawmakers. I firmly believe it really would've have helped her. She shied away from getting some illegally because if caught, should would've lost her licenses and business. It just wasn't worth the risk.

[Tpoppa]

Here are more flaws with blood testing for THC

 

Oral ingestion - Eating something with weed "baked" in will impair you much more than smoking.  Eating it isn't well detectable in blood tests.

 

The only reliable way to test would be if a blood sample was drawn within 30-60 minutes of smoking because that is when THC levels are actually "high" (and that further depends on the person's metabolism).  Police are not equipped or trained to do that on the roadside.  Not to mention, there's no way on earth I would ever advocate letting some cop, who just got done arresting some filthy crackhead, take a blood sample.  Furthermore, it would be cost prohibitive to equip police departments for immediate blood sample collection all in an effort to catch stoners on their way to Taco Bell.

 

Laws are written to test for low levels in the blood, which means anyone prescribed medical marijuana or any chronic smokers would always be prone to a false positive, regardless if they're impaired or not.  

 

 

--------------------------------------------------

http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/drugtestguide/drugtestdetection.html

 

Blood Tests

Unlike urine tests, blood tests detect the active presence of THC in the bloodstream. In the case of smoked marijuana, THC peaks rapidly in the first few minutes after inhaling, often to levels above 100 ng/ml in blood plasma. It then declines quickly to single-digit levels within an hour. High THC levels are therefore a good indication that the subject has smoked marijuana recently. THC can remain at low but detectable levels of 1-2 ng/ml for 8 hours or more without any measurable signs of impairment in one-time users. In chronic users, detectable amounts of blood THC can persist for days. In one study of chronic users, residual THC was detected for 24 to 48 hours or longer at levels of 0.5 - 3.2 ng/ml in whole blood (1.0 - 6.4 ng/ml in serum) [Skopp and Potsch].

Note: THC blood levels can be measured in two ways. Most labs used by U.S. law enforcement report levels based on concentration in whole blood, but others report concentration in blood serum or plasma instead. Concentrations in whole blood are about half as high as those in serum/plasma. Therefore 0.5 - 3.2 ng/ml in whole blood = 1.0 - 6.4 ng/ml in plasma or serum. Unless otherwise stated, whole blood concentrations are reported here.

In another study of 25 frequent users, 36% showed no measurable blood THC throughout 7 days of abstinence, while the rest had at least one positive, though not necessarily on the first day. Six subjects (24%) had detectable blood THC after seven days at levels ranging from 0.2 to 1.5 ng/ml (that is, 0.4 to 3.0 ng/ml in serum) [Karschner]. There have been anecdotal reports of even higher day-after blood THC levels in chronic users, but these haven't been confirmed in controlled studies.

Unlike urine, blood test results can give a useful indicator of whether one is under the influence of marijuana. Studies have shown that high THC blood levels are correlated with impaired driving. An expert panel review of scientific studies on driving under the influence of cannabis concluded that THC levels above 3.5 - 5 ng/ml in blood (or 7 - 10 ng/ml in serum) indicate likely impairment [Grotenhermen]. The same review found no increased driving hazard at low levels of THC. Despite the fact that accident studies have repeatedly failed to find evidence of increased driving risk at low levels (1 or 2 ng in blood) of THC, numerous states and foreign countries have enacted "zero-tolerance" laws, treating any non-zero trace of THC as legal evidence for driving under the influence. Others have fixed, per se limits above which DUI is presumed, often with no scientific basis. However, most states (including California) don't have per se limits, but define DUI in terms of whether the totality of evidence (including drug test results) shows that the driver was impaired by marijuana or drugs.

Although high blood THC is a fairly good indicator of being under the influence, it is not infallible. Chronic users who develop tolerance to THC may in some cases drive safely with very high blood levels of THC. In one study, a subject with severe attention deficit disorder could not pass a driving test while straight, but performed well with a blood level of 71 ng/ml [strohbeck-Kühner]. No similar phenomenon is known for alcohol.

Oral ingestion

Oral ingestion produces a much different THC blood profile than smoking. Instead of peaking sharply, THC rises gradually over a couple of hours to a plateau of around 2.5 - 5 ng/ml in blood (5 - 10 ng/ml in serum), then declines (see blue curve in Figure 5).

Blood metabolites 
In addition to THC, blood tests can detect cannabinoid metabolites. Not uncommonly, labs report levels of THC-COOH, the same non-psychoactive metabolite found in urine. As shown in Fig. 5, THC-COOH levels for blood are similar to urine. They may be detectable for a couple of days after a single use or weeks in chronic users, and are therefore not a valid indicator of being under the influence. There is no scientific basis for treating drivers who have THC-COOH but not THC in their blood as being legally "under the influence."

Another blood metabolite not shown in Figure 5 is 11-hydroxy-THC, a psychoactive byproduct produced when THC is processed by the liver after oral ingestion. While not detectable at appreciable levels in smoked marijuana, 11-hydroxy-THC shows a similar blood profile to THC after oral consumption. The presence of 11-hydroxy-THC may therefore be used as an indicator of recent oral use. However, most blood tests don't bother to check for 11-hydroxy-THC.

Figure 5 - Blood plasma levels of THC & Metabolite 

 

Edited September 10, 2014 by Tpoppa

[baptizo]

Hey, I don't begrudge anyone who wants to smoke weed....if it isn't harming someone else, roll with it.  Personally, with borderline glaucoma - the doc's can't figure it out - I might have to quit my job (not allowed to use it despite my employer claiming to be progressive and all that shit) and move to Colorado or Washington.  

[zx3vfr]

Weren't most the studies from fatalities and accidents that came out from before it was legalized and even a few were cited from full prohibition states?