Pokey Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 So where are all of these inexperienced and little to no trained citizens who are carrying, that are causing so much danger to society and those around them? I will answer that.......they are everywhere and its very rare when something bad is happening due to their ignorance and lack of experience and training. Right to carry regardless of experience or training, that is what matters most to me. I used to feel the same way about training at one point in time, but I saw the errors of my ways and common sense prevailed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccrory Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 So where are all of these inexperienced and little to no trained citizens who are carrying, that are causing so much danger to society and those around them? I will answer that.......they are everywhere and its very rare when something bad is happening due to their ignorance and lack of experience and training. Right to carry regardless of experience or training, that is what matters most to me. I used to feel the same way about training at one point in time, but I saw the errors of my ways and common sense prevailed. Those are two good points - 1) constitutionality and 2) I haven't seen stats that support the idea that low training is a problem. Though I bet a majority of CHL holders rarely carry based on their own discomfort. Now, me, I'm pro-education and training, but at the same time, requiring more by law would effectively discriminate against lower economic classes who have just as much (if not more) reason to protect themselves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Pokey is right. If we stopped Free Speech because people were stupid most of you would have to shut up. A right is a right, period. That said any instructor can refuse to sign off on the person and say you need more time on the range. It is written in the rules, always has been. Instructors don't sign off unless they feel the person is safe. And when I did mine I saw three people get told they needed more time on the range. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Ok, we need to call the PA attorney general. 6106(2)(b)(15) (15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfullyissued license or permit to carry a firearm which has beenissued under the laws of another state, regardless of whethera reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth andthe state under section 6109(k), provided:(i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege forindividuals licensed to carry firearms under section6109.(ii) The Attorney General has determined that thefirearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm lawsof this Commonwealth. http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.006.000..HTM Ohio is now providing 'reciprocal privilege' to PA folks.......so 'regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists'....I should be able to carry over there as soon as "The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth." Gonna be tough though, she is hardcore anti-2nd amendment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Ok, we need to call the PA attorney general. 6106(2)(b)(15) (15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfullyissued license or permit to carry a firearm which has beenissued under the laws of another state, regardless of whethera reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth andthe state under section 6109(k), provided:(i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege forindividuals licensed to carry firearms under section6109.(ii) The Attorney General has determined that thefirearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm lawsof this Commonwealth. http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.006.000..HTM Ohio is now providing 'reciprocal privilege' to PA folks.......so 'regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists'....I should be able to carry over there as soon as "The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth." Gonna be tough though, she is hardcore anti-2nd amendment.That is interesting, good find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 That is interesting, good find. We got to fix PA somehow, otherwise all the new agreements are pretty pointless we will still need a PA permit...which covers all the new agreements we just got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 We got to fix PA somehow, otherwise all the new agreements are pretty pointless we will still need a PA permit...which covers all the new agreements we just got.Fact, or we gotta go get PA out of state permits. Which sucks to do, but I wouldn't mind a quick road trip over there. Maybe give me a reason to get away for a day and/or night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccrory Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 We got to fix PA somehow, otherwise all the new agreements are pretty pointless we will still need a PA permit...which covers all the new agreements we just got. I looked across nearly all of PA's Ohio-bordering counties and didn't find a single one listed as offering non-state permits. So, that means a boring 3 1/2+ hour interstate drive or a more interesting 5+ hour state route ride. I'll probably do it when I'm visiting my folks in Morgantown WV sometime, and make it an afternoon ride into east-central PA. That is, unless you guys know of a closer venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 That is, unless you guys know of a closer venue. There are threads over at Buckeye firearms and Ohioans for Concealed Carry that list personal experiences on the best places doing this. Hit those and read up. I know the ones up north, but not down your way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccrory Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 There are threads over at Buckeye firearms and Ohioans for Concealed Carry that list personal experiences on the best places doing this. Hit those and read up. I know the ones up north, but not down your way.Ok coolness thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Ok coolness thank you!Sounds good here too, if this doesn't happen before the twins are here, Im going to go over in June/July since I'll be off for an extended period. So if we want to plan a ways out, we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Pokey is right. If we stopped Free Speech because people were stupid most of you would have to shut up. A right is a right, period. That said any instructor can refuse to sign off on the person and say you need more time on the range. It is written in the rules, always has been. Instructors don't sign off unless they feel the person is safe. And when I did mine I saw three people get told they needed more time on the range. I don't think comparing free speech with carrying a firearm is fair. An idiot spewing stupidity has zero potential for immediate lethality. The same cannot be said for an unqualified person carrying a firearm. They have the right to carry, but they also have the responsibility to do it safely. I'm not of the opinion that marrying the two is an unreasonable infringement upon anyone's rights. furthermore, we're talking about CONCEALED carry rights. Open-carry is legal for anyone who owns a firearm. At least then I am on notice of which potential idiots are armed. Edited March 26, 2015 by redkow97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 An idiot spewing stupidity has zero potential for immediate lethality. Going to leave this right here and spend the next few moments doing my happy dance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo72 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) In general I'm pro-training but not in this case. The training required is just window dressing to appease the opposition in my opinion. I'll use Indiana as an example. There is no training required for CCW and there isn't blood running in the street from morons engaging in shootouts at high noon. The background checks were sufficient. It was a very rare occasion when a CCW holder made the news. It was always the idiots in Gary Indiana or certain areas of Indianapolis. The same seems to hold true in the states that have constitutional carry unless you are a felon. Kind of in the same way that I am opposed to helmet and seat belt laws. I don't ever see myself ever riding more than 50 ft in a parking lot without a helmet but I don't like the government getting involved. Edited March 26, 2015 by Wojo72 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I will just leave this here, kind of proves my point. http://www.gunlaws.com/ConstitutionalCarryIndex.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccrory Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I will just leave this here, kind of proves my point. http://www.gunlaws.com/ConstitutionalCarryIndex.htmHoplophobia, n. Irrational, morbid fear of guns (c. 1966, coined by Col. Jeff Cooper, from the Greek hoplites, weapon; see his book Principles of Personal Defense). May cause sweating, faintness, discomfort, rapid pulse, nausea, sleeplessness, nondescript fears, more, at mere thought of guns. Presence of working firearms may cause panic attack. Hoplophobe, hoplophobic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Going to leave this right here and spend the next few moments doing my happy dance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster I'm not going to split hairs with you. I chose my phrasing carefully when I said words do not cause "immediate lethality." I acknowledge that the word "fire" caused a reaction that led to numerous fatalities, but no one died in the milliseconds after the word was spoken. A poorly aimed bullet has much greater potential, and far fewer intervening circumstances necessary for it to be lethal immediately. Rhetoric and panic can most certainly cause deaths, I just don't think they're "immediate." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I'm not going to split hairs with you. I chose my phrasing carefully when I said words do not cause "immediate lethality." I acknowledge that the word "fire" caused a reaction that led to numerous fatalities, but no one died in the milliseconds after the word was spoken. A poorly aimed bullet has much greater potential, and far fewer intervening circumstances necessary for it to be lethal immediately. Rhetoric and panic can most certainly cause deaths, I just don't think they're "immediate." Lol, you are splitting hairs. I think you need to ponder the difference between immediate and instantaneous. Also ponder the amount of time it takes to bleed out compared to the amount of time it takes to run to the stairs. Straws, you are grasping at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I watched an instructor pass a woman that couldn't hit an OPATA target at 7 yards with her .38 snub nose.More training isn't the issue. A personal attack is going to occur within less than 7 yards, I am betting she would be just fine. The sheer presence of a gun is also quite the deterent, the trigger is not always pulled to stop an assault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 A personal attack is going to occur within less than 7 yards, I am betting she would be just fine. The sheer presence of a gun is also quite the deterent, the trigger is not always pulled to stop an assault. That being said, a poor marksman is a poor marksman and bullets don't just stop and give up because they missed the bad guy. Range time isn't the issue as far as I can tell, they're cutting the classroom time down. back when I took my course I was the only student and we had already covered all the course material, done dry fire exercises, contact shooting, hypotheticals, coming out of the holster and a bunch of other stuff till we ended up shooting the shit for a while and eventually we called it a day after 8 hours instead of 10 and put in 2 extra hours at the range the next day. I can't say how it would work out in a class of 20 but I imagine that just like when we have training at work and even back when I was in school there is always some dullard that has white dog shit for brains and either can't hold focus on the instructor or can't create the neural connections required for digesting new info and drag the class down with idiotic questions. There are stupid questions. Fuck what your 3rd grade teacher told you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Pretty safe to say that statistics are in favor that more CHL owners are doing a good job than not, and all of this with little to no experience. Right to carry, that trumps the rest in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-bus Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Day 5..... I have not been challenged to a dual. Yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccrory Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Day 5..... I have not been challenged to a dual. Yet. Challenged! My weapon choice? Peanut-buttered toast. I fart in your general direction... Shit just got real, yo. Edited March 27, 2015 by smccrory 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Challenged! My weapon choice? Peanut-buttered toast. I fart in your general direction... Shit just got real, yo. I'm going to stand near you two and yell FIRE!! That seems to be far more deadly than an untrained CCW holder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccrory Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I'm going to stand near you two and yell FIRE!! That seems to be far more deadly than an untrained CCW holder.I'm told that peanut allergies are serious business... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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