Islam - By The Numbers

[Tpoppa]

You should watch this entire video before you express any opinion about Islamic beliefs.  It's about 15 minutes.  It's full of facts.

 

From 10:20-13:15 they show demographics and percentages that you may find interesting (but you should still watch the entire video).

 

 

 

By the Numbers is an honest and open discussion about Muslim opinions and demographics. Narrated by Raheel Raza, president of Muslims Facing Tomorrow, this short film is about the acceptance that radical Islam is a bigger problem than most politically correct governments and individuals are ready to admit... 

[r1crusher]

Def. an eye opening short video.  I certainly will not argue any points brought up within it.

[Tpoppa]

How come no one is calling Raheel Raza a racist or an Islamaphobe?  Why is no one regurgitating Obama or Hillary comments that 99.9% of Muslims don't support extremist beliefs?  Where is the Ben Affleck style liberal rage?

 

 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Tpoppa

[Josh1234]

great video.  It needs to be spread around.  Also, it was really interesting to hear some facts about the numbers... and just what is a mainstream belief vs a radical belief.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Josh1234

[MichaelS]

One thing that stands out and I think is part of the problem is a large number of the population is in poor third world countries where they are uneducated.  Even those in Western Europe are not integrated and don't have a stake in their current country.  Much higher rates of unemployment, segregation almost exacerbate the problem.  I'm in no way saying that is an excuse but part of the cause. 

 

I believe that much of the reason that politicians etc try to disassociate the groups like ISIS and those that perform the terrorist acts is to not fan the flames that this is a war of the West against Islam.  Because that view just leads to increased recruitment.  I believe the key is education, and bringing them into the 21st century.  Beyond that I have seen no proposed solution to the problem that has a chance.

[Tpoppa]

I believe the key is education, and bringing them into the 21st century.  Beyond that I have seen no proposed solution to the problem that has a chance.

How would you propose educating people that either practice or justify violence and killing in the name of their religion (before everyone's panties get bunched, I'm referring to jihadists and fundamentalists)?  Would you tell them their beliefs are wrong?  They believe the Quran calls for this violence and guess what...IT DOES.  

 

It's important for non-Muslims to educate themselves about what is actually contained in the Muslim ideology.  This is worth reading:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm 

 

"The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule.  Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding.  Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter..."

[Tpoppa]

..continued

 

If you analyze Christian doctrine you can find holes and contradictions.  I've done it myself.  But, the Bible is actually pretty consistent about condemning violence, especially in the new testament.  Certainly, violence has been committed in the name of Christianity, but it would be extremely difficult to argue that the Bible calls for this violence.

 

If you analyze Muslim doctrine you will also find holes and contradictions.  There is an especially large contradiction about killing and violence.  There are verses that call for peace and others that call for killing non-believers.  There is no equivalent to "out of date" old testament verses.  

 

(According to surveys) About 75% of all Muslims seem to focus on the peaceful aspects of Islam.  While the other 25% seem to feel that the calls to violence are still relevant today.  Today there are 200k-500k active jihadists.    

 

----- link above doesn't work ------

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

[jschaf]

Thanks for the numbers Tony. 99.9% is a bullshit number 99.9% of the time someone uses it. Prez seems to think it sounds better than 75% to 85% .

[DAC]

The video in the OP is a nice piece of political rhetoric.

[Tpoppa]

The video in the OP is a nice piece of political rhetoric.

OOC, why do you say that?

 

The group that put it together is not particularly political.  They do not endorse candidates.  They are a Canada based, non profit that speaks to reforms within Islam.  Their leader is a human rights activist.  In fact, "In her opinion, the main problem with the modern Islam is the blending of religion with politics."   

[drc32-0]

OOC, why do you say that?

 

 In fact, "In her opinion, the main problem with the modern Islam is the blending of religion with politics."

That can be said about all religions.

[JohnG]

Watched with an open mind.  Appreciated the information.  Thanks.

[DAC]

OOC, why do you say that?

The group that put it together is not particularly political. They do not endorse candidates. They are a Canada based, non profit that speaks to reforms within Islam. Their leader is a human rights activist. In fact, "In her opinion, the main problem with the modern Islam is the blending of religion with politics."

No offense, but if the goal is to inform, why all the gratuitously violent video? Most grotesque of all, why have that pinhead Ben Affleck in there? Vid would have been half as long and wouldn't raise as much suspicion without that stuff.

FWIW, I am open to input. But I get a bit twitchy when someone throws a raft of charts and numbers at me interspersed with video aimed to provoke an emotional response.

Spock out.

[Tonik]

DAC is right, I had the same exact reaction. The use of video clips should have been replaced with a better explanation of the numbers and their source.

Instead she uses the shock value of the videos to envoke emotions to get people to buy in. I find that questionable and intellectually dishonest.

[Tpoppa]

No offense, but if the goal is to inform, why all the gratuitously violent video? Most grotesque of all, why have that pinhead Ben Affleck in there? Vid would have been half as long and wouldn't raise as much suspicion without that stuff.

FWIW, I am open to input. But I get a bit twitchy when someone throws a raft of charts and numbers at me interspersed with video aimed to provoke an emotional response.

Spock out.

Fair enough.  I interpreted it differently, but you are welcome to that opinion.

 

No argument that Ben is a pinhead.  I thought it was fine that he was included.  Here's why:

 

Ben's outrage was real.  But I don't think he really understood what he was outraged about.  He heard a group's religion being questioned and jumped right to "bigot" and "islamaphobe."

 

I have come to understand that there is no real separation of church and state within Islam.  If you disagree with the political agenda, you are also disagreeing with aspects of the Islamic religion.  That is a foreign concept for Americans.  It's uncomfortable for many Americans and not particularly well understood. 

 

 While Ben's reactions were on the extreme side, I think lots of people have a similar reaction due to a lack of understanding about Islamic Ideology.  

 

Also, the numbers from PEW are best source I've seen.  If you have another source please share it.

[r1crusher]

Instead she uses the shock value of the videos to envoke emotions to get people to buy in. I find that questionable and intellectually dishonest.

 

Sounds exactly like every single media outlet in this country today.

[Tpoppa]

Instead she uses the shock value of the videos to envoke emotions to get people to buy in. I find that questionable and intellectually dishonest.

One of the points of the video is to try to get non-Mulsims to understand that type of violence is accepted by some Muslims (see demographics).

 

How else would you suggest depicting that violence.  Seems like video footage is a reasonably effective medium. 

[Tonik]

One of the points of the video is to try to get non-Mulsims to understand that type of violence is accepted by some Muslims (see demographics).

 

How else would you suggest depicting that violence.  Seems like video footage is a reasonably effective medium. 

 

Tony, your OP was about the Demographics. The video is titled 'By the Numbers', and clearly about the Demographics. The primary point of the video was clearly the issue of 'Are Islamic peole mostly violent or mostly peaceful.  The first five minutes of the video were setting up politicians and talking heads with their quotes (most out of context) so she could blast them 'By the Numbers'.

 

For example she shows Obama saying 99.9 percent.....clearly mocking what he is saying.

 

What we got was a montage of violence and her opinions.  And a couple of seconds screen of the 'numbers'.

 

 

So using her numbers, we see at the very high end 475,000 batshit insane Muslims that want to kill you. Let's round up shall we, to a fucking million. More than TWICE what she claims.  There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. Lets round that down to just 1 Billion. See what I am doing here, I am rounding the numbers in a HUGE way in your/her favor to avoid arguing the numbers and to make the math easier.

 

1 million is POINT 1 percent of 1 billion. Obama's 99.9 percent, is easily right on the money. Actually in fact it is conservative.  Obama was right, Hillary was right. Jesus even Ben Affleck was right.

 

But you missed that, because you were focused on the violence in the video, it got to your emotions.  She played you, and you went for it hook line and sinker.

[Tpoppa]

No Jim.  You either didn't watch the video, didn't understand it, or are being intentionally obtuse.

 

No one is arguing the number of jihadists.  The point of the video is that the 475,000 jihadists aren't the only Muslims that support extremists ideas.  

 

I swear....sometimes you are like talking to a 2 year old.

[DAC]

Sticking with the numbers, she does use the concentric circles theme coupled with some survey sampling done by Pew to conclude the Jihad bunch are surrounded by "Islamist" and "Fundamentalist" enablers numbering in the hundreds of millions. She gets there using some extrapolation that may be suspect.

The point may very well have some validity. But she does mumble at one point how the survey came from "Muslim majority" countries. (Or words similar to that.). So it is unknown how well that sample can be applied to the broader global Muslim community.

We also don't know how the survey Qs translate from the language in which they were asked so we don't a good feel for whether the terms used lead to an expected response.

So, again, not feeling like all the cards are out - combined with video shots that are something close to pandering - makes the whole thing a little suspect.

If the whole idea is that Islam should go through some kind of reform. Fair enough. Christianity went through its own version. Then western civilization had its Rennaisance, the Enlightenment blah, blah, blah. If that's the need, then we're probably the wrong audience.

Edited December 17, 2015 by DAC

[Tpoppa]

Sticking with the numbers, she does use the concentric circles theme coupled with some survey sampling done by Pew to conclude the Jihad bunch are surrounded by "Islamist" and "Fundamentalist" enablers numbering in the hundreds of millions. She gets there using some extrapolation that may be suspect.

The point may very well have some validity. But she does mumble at one point how the survey came from "Muslim majority" countries. (Or words similar to that.). So it is unknown how well that sample can be applied to the broader global Muslim community.

The group that produced the video used the findings from Pew Research.  Pew published what you are looking for and much more...sample sizes, survey methodology, margin of error, etc, etc.

 

You can accept it as good data or not.  It makes no difference to me.  Again, if you have a better source feel free to share it. 

[DAC]

Data is data and we all have our opinions. I don't begrudge anyone theirs. I am calling no one out on this one, just sharing my impressions. That doesn't oblige me to take on a data mining project.

[Tpoppa]

Data is data and we all have our opinions. I don't begrudge anyone theirs. I am calling no one out on this one, just sharing my impressions. That doesn't oblige me to take on a data mining project.

 

Perhaps you understand the way surveys and margin of error work.  Perhaps not. Suggesting that there were translations issues that skewed data without bothering to read how the interviews were conducted seems a little disingenuous.  It seems that you are trying hold the data to an impossible standard of acceptance.  That's fine.  You don't need to believe it.  

[jschaf]

Tony, your OP was about the Demographics. The video is titled 'By the Numbers', and clearly about the Demographics. The primary point of the video was clearly the issue of 'Are Islamic peole mostly violent or mostly peaceful.  The first five minutes of the video were setting up politicians and talking heads with their quotes (most out of context) so she could blast them 'By the Numbers'.

 

For example she shows Obama saying 99.9 percent.....clearly mocking what he is saying.

 

What we got was a montage of violence and her opinions.  And a couple of seconds screen of the 'numbers'.

 

Screenshot_20151216-180028.png

 

So using her numbers, we see at the very high end 475,000 batshit insane Muslims that want to kill you. Let's round up shall we, to a fucking million. More than TWICE what she claims.  There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. Lets round that down to just 1 Billion. See what I am doing here, I am rounding the numbers in a HUGE way in your/her favor to avoid arguing the numbers and to make the math easier.

 

1 million is POINT 1 percent of 1 billion. Obama's 99.9 percent, is easily right on the money. Actually in fact it is conservative.  Obama was right, Hillary was right. Jesus even Ben Affleck was right.

 

But you missed that, because you were focused on the violence in the video, it got to your emotions.  She played you, and you went for it hook line and sinker.[/quote

What I gather from the PEW poll results: 100%-99.9%= 0.1% of Muslims that absolutely want you dead. About 20% (roughly the population of the USA) would be glad when you they kill you & might want to contribute to your demise monetarily. Most Muslims (around 80%) want to coexist. If you are ok with that I don't know what to tell you, but personally It makes me a little uneasy. We see violence in the news every night so I don't get very emotional about the graphics. If you choose to hide your head in the sand on this issue so be it.

[motocat12]

 475,000 batshit insane Muslims that want to kill you.

 

 And those 475,000 are extremely motivated to get to 1st world countries to cause carnage. They would kill any muslims standing in front of them in line to move up.