rl Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 They suck horribly and no car should ever be forced to use them. That is all. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mudbutt Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Naa, you just suck at the tuning All nonsense aside, there are better ways of getting fuel for close to the same amount of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by Stinky Pete: Naa, you just suck at the tuning All nonsense aside, there are better ways of getting fuel for close to the same amount of money. LOL! I didnt say I couldnt make them work well, I just said they suck. smile.gif And wouldnt any GOOD tuner agree that these things suck? In-fact some tuners wouldnt even touch cars with these setups because they are so horrible. [ 23. October 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: rl ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mudbutt Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 I dont know what is worse, them or fmu. Please tell me someone didnt have that POS on a ford, with all of the fuel options available for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20G TSi Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 use a simple hobbs/pressure activated switch. I agree, there are better ways, but a $15. switch and cheap-O add-on injectors have to be the cheapest solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renner Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Depends on the intake manifold they are being used on, and where/how many injectors are being used. I have seen more then a few late 80's 911 turbos using additional injectors to add fuel since a stock US spec CIS fuel head cannot provide enough fuel above about 1.2 bar. This is the way it was done before affordable standalones and crazy big injectors were available. I have tuned a car using a new style HKS AIC for extra fuel before, and I thought it worked very well. Was very easy to specify the starting rpm and manifold pressure. You can also adjust the duty cycle as the rpm's increase, so you can add more fuel on an exponential curve if needed. I would most likely not use one with an intake like on my Z (would actually need 2). And I would definitely not use one on any I6 intake manifold. http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/160000-160999/160293_32_full.jpg http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/160000-160999/160293_5_full.jpg This manifold came off of a twin turbo street car making well over 750 at the flywheel. 3.3L flat-6, 12 spark plugs, and 12 injectors. It is a Carrera aluminum manifold, modified to use the CIS injectors in the primary sites, with a bung for extra electronic injectors welded onto each runner just above the primaries. These were driven using an HKS AIC. This was not as insane of an engine as the one the manifold came off of. Single turbo, less boost, didn’t need as much fuel enrichment, so only 1 extra large injector is used, which is just below the throttle body on the back side of the intake in another bung. So the other 6 injection sites are blocked off. I think if you have a good enough controls system, with the correct setup on the intake, they can be a good way to get what you need. The AEM standalone for example can (among about a million other things), be used to drive secondary injectors any way that you want. All that BS being said, using a blunt tool (like a split second ARC II) for what is an inherently high accuracy application is not exactly a good way to go. Too many other factors that you cannot control can often lead to bigger problems. I would rather program up another AEM and have complete control any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 I guess I should have said that not ALL of them are bad. You have a Porsche for every occasion don't you? I'm using a MF2 that uses dual 440cc Lucas injectors right BEFORE the throttle body for a h23 turbo car I just got done building (well, I did the turbo, passen did the rest). He has a E-manage which would control the secondary injectors and would work decent, however passen sold him some of what he didn't need (harnesses)and didn't sell him what he needed (software). The MF2 uses 8 potometers at 1,000rpm intervals to control fuel, and that's it. You don't have very much 'fine tuning' available besides what you can curve with the E-manage, so the crossover points from vaccuum to boost suck. Not to mention the delays because the fuel has to travel over a foot, around bends, to reach the intake valve. This makes for a VERY rich condition during shifts. To top it off all it knows is RPM and Pressure, you can set it up on a throttle switch, but as you know on a turbo car that wont work so well. So at part throttle under 3 pounds at 4k rpm its getting the same amount of fuel from the secondaries as WOT under 3lbs of boost at 4k rpm. Compared to what is available now its a VERY shitty way to control fuel. Now if it had 4 additional injectors IN the intake runners then I could see it working much better. The way this is set up is plain shitty in every aspect. Granted, I'm used to tuning fords that work off of a hot wire air meter, with many more functions available using cutting edge (in the ford tuning world) software so I am a little biased. I managed to get it to have a nice AFR under part throttle and WOT, as well as have good driveability (when he brought me the car straight from passen, it wouldn't idle AT ALL when hot, and every time you took your foot off the gas it would die). It still hiccups (loads up) from time to time if you are cruising at ~3k and romp on it. You have to roll into the throttle to get a smooth transition. On a sudden lift under ANY boost and the air/fuel drops below 9:1. In closing, people need to learn to do things right, and not invest money in the wrong areas. A Fuel system is the most important part of an engine, yet most people pay the least amount of attention to it and that pisses baby Jesus off. Ohh yeah we got my buddies 951 going last night. smile.gif It kicks all sorts of ass. it has just about all the mods that the one you built does, but we dont have a boost controller on it yet. Hopefully next week. smile.gif Thanks for the help with that smile.gif [ 23. October 2003, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: rl ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renner Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by rl: I guess I should have said that not ALL of them are bad. You have a Porsche for every occasion don't you? Of course! Originally posted by rl: Ohh yeah we got my buddies 951 going last night. smile.gif It kicks all sorts of ass. it has just about all the mods that the one you built does, but we dont have a boost controller on it yet. Hopefully next week. smile.gif Thanks for the help with that smile.gif If you still have problems with that Honda and you are out of options, you might want to check out that HKS AIC, just might have to sell some of the other stuff. It was very straight forward, and did what it needed to do. The only issue I had with it was that the injector driver amp gave off a pretty large amount of electromagnetic interference, which messed up the spark signal on the dyno pulls, so don't put it near the ECU. If your buddy doesn't mind modding his plenum, getting the injectors behind the throttle body will help with some of the puddling that I am sure you are getting, and should improve the driveability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by Renner: Of course! </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rl: Ohh yeah we got my buddies 951 going last night. smile.gif It kicks all sorts of ass. it has just about all the mods that the one you built does, but we dont have a boost controller on it yet. Hopefully next week. smile.gif Thanks for the help with that smile.gif If you still have problems with that Honda and you are out of options, you might want to check out that HKS AIC, just might have to sell some of the other stuff. It was very straight forward, and did what it needed to do. The only issue I had with it was that the injector driver amp gave off a pretty large amount of electromagnetic interference, which messed up the spark signal on the dyno pulls, so don't put it near the ECU. If your buddy doesn't mind modding his plenum, getting the injectors behind the throttle body will help with some of the puddling that I am sure you are getting, and should improve the driveability. </font>The kid doesn't want to spend anymore money. When he does, the Secondary injectors will go and I'll get the other harnesses for the E-manage and have him get larger normal injectors. The E-manage actually works REALLY well, with the laptop interface and their MAP sensor its supposed to work very well. Without the software its pretty basic. With 2 injectors it would be tough to get distribution correct, but I thought about welding nipples to the upper plenum, but they would be hard to fit and distribution still wouldn't be perfect (though better). I might see if I can find a used HKS AIC for cheap on Ebay or something. smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdk 4219 Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by rl: I guess I should have said that not ALL of them are bad. You have a Porsche for every occasion don't you? I'm using a MF2 that uses dual 440cc Lucas injectors right BEFORE the throttle body for a h23 turbo car I just got done building (well, I did the turbo, passen did the rest). He has a E-manage which would control the secondary injectors and would work decent, however passen sold him some of what he didn't need (harnesses)and didn't sell him what he needed (software). The MF2 uses 8 potometers at 1,000rpm intervals to control fuel, and that's it. You don't have very much 'fine tuning' available besides what you can curve with the E-manage, so the crossover points from vaccuum to boost suck. Not to mention the delays because the fuel has to travel over a foot, around bends, to reach the intake valve. This makes for a VERY rich condition during shifts. To top it off all it knows is RPM and Pressure, you can set it up on a throttle switch, but as you know on a turbo car that wont work so well. So at part throttle under 3 pounds at 4k rpm its getting the same amount of fuel from the secondaries as WOT under 3lbs of boost at 4k rpm. Compared to what is available now its a VERY shitty way to control fuel. Now if it had 4 additional injectors IN the intake runners then I could see it working much better. The way this is set up is plain shitty in every aspect. Granted, I'm used to tuning fords that work off of a hot wire air meter, with many more functions available using cutting edge (in the ford tuning world) software so I am a little biased. I managed to get it to have a nice AFR under part throttle and WOT, as well as have good driveability (when he brought me the car straight from passen, it wouldn't idle AT ALL when hot, and every time you took your foot off the gas it would die). It still hiccups (loads up) from time to time if you are cruising at ~3k and romp on it. You have to roll into the throttle to get a smooth transition. On a sudden lift under ANY boost and the air/fuel drops below 9:1. In closing, people need to learn to do things right, and not invest money in the wrong areas. A Fuel system is the most important part of an engine, yet most people pay the least amount of attention to it and that pisses baby Jesus off. Ohh yeah we got my buddies 951 going last night. smile.gif It kicks all sorts of ass. it has just about all the mods that the one you built does, but we dont have a boost controller on it yet. Hopefully next week. smile.gif Thanks for the help with that smile.gif What did you guys do to bleed the pressure off of the map sensor? If you dont have enough check valves in the "missing link" the map will recieve boost and this sounds like the problem. My buddy has an H23 T3-T4 and I had the same problems with the idle and drivability, exactly the same, but it is great now with that simple fix. I like the MP2 for its ease of adjustability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by cdk 4219: What did you guys do to bleed the pressure off of the map sensor? If you dont have enough check valves in the "missing link" the map will recieve boost and this sounds like the problem. My buddy has an H23 T3-T4 and I had the same problems with the idle and drivability, exactly the same, but it is great now with that simple fix. I like the MP2 for its ease of adjustability. Sometimes ease of adjustability != good I'm using a missing link and the stock map is NOT seeing ANY boost. This is a issue with design, not tuning. It runs 90% of how I would LIKE it to run right now. That other 10% won't come with the injector setup the way it is, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdk 4219 Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Teh MP2 doesnt even have adjustability under 3000 rpm if I remember correctly, so if you were having idle problems then either one of the injectors is not closing, or there is something wrong with the stock Honda devices. Have you checked the MAP, or is the check engine light on? I know that once a Honda map sees boost then it doesnt work right. We finally had to put 7 check valves in the missing link to correct for running rich, stalling after boost, aas well as stumble when stabbing the throttle. Every time the engine boosted th echeck engine light came on because of the map sensor. Good luck! I was very pleased with the final drivability of the car after these issues were addressed, and the power is at 305 to the wheels at 10 PSI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by cdk 4219: Teh MP2 doesnt even have adjustability under 3000 rpm if I remember correctly, so if you were having idle problems then either one of the injectors is not closing, or there is something wrong with the stock Honda devices. Have you checked the MAP, or is the check engine light on? I know that once a Honda map sees boost then it doesnt work right. We finally had to put 7 check valves in the missing link to correct for running rich, stalling after boost, aas well as stumble when stabbing the throttle. Every time the engine boosted th echeck engine light came on because of the map sensor. Good luck! I was very pleased with the final drivability of the car after these issues were addressed, and the power is at 305 to the wheels at 10 PSI. No check engine light, it happened once, I cleaned the missing link and never again. If we continue to have issues I'll add in check valves. Ultimately the MP2 is going to come off of the car, it is NOT a good design. I'm going to have him get large injectors and the injector harness for the E-manage. IMHO, that's the CORRECT way to do it. What's odd is to keep it safe down low, I have what would seem like a lot of fuel added through the mp2 at low RPM, but its going way RICH up top (like 11.0:1) with like 1/8th turn LESS than what's down low. Right now driveability is GREAT, it doesn't hesitate or stumble at all, and most of the time it doesn't die when lifting in full boost. Maybe I'll add some check valves and see what happens. Did the car you did have a BTM or similar on it? The idle with this car was worse PRE-turbo then it was when I gave it back. When he gave me the car straight from passen it wouldn't idle for more than a minute or two (it had like a 10.0:1 AFR at idle) and it would die EVERY time you took your foot off the gas while driving it. It has cams in it, but something else was going on. What's kind of odd is the fuel pump cycles continuously while you have the key on, every 15 seconds or so the fuel pump kicks on (engine off key on). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdk 4219 Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 I assume BTM is boost timing master, in which case yes it has an MSD. We have yet to retard the timing from stock position though. With 8 to 1 J&E pistons ans well as balanced assembly, and ported head it seems to work well. He actually has the car up for sale for $8500 if anybody is interested. Mail him at wpostle@ds.net his name is Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by cdk 4219: I assume BTM is boost timing master, in which case yes it has an MSD. We have yet to retard the timing from stock position though. With 8 to 1 J&E pistons ans well as balanced assembly, and ported head it seems to work well. He actually has the car up for sale for $8500 if anybody is interested. Mail him at wpostle@ds.net his name is Paul I have it pulling 1/2* per lb right now, he has JE pistons, rods etc etc so on the dyno I might add some more timing. It wasnt detonating at all right now, which is good smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdk 4219 Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 When we pulled timing the car would fall on its ass, I think he may have bumped the timing 2*. How are your dyno #s looking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by cdk 4219: When we pulled timing the car would fall on its ass, I think he may have bumped the timing 2*. How are your dyno #s looking? Havent had it on a dyno, I just finished the install last week, the motor has 600 miles on it and leaks a SHITLOAD of oil (THANKS PASSEN!) which is getting fixed next week, then its dyno time. smile.gif When I was pulling 1.5* it would fall straight on its face, 1* it pulls, but it feels like its bogging a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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