Trouble Maker Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 Allrigh, last time I was at home my car died. It's a 1991 Saturn SL2. I have no clue what is wrong with it, it showed no signs that I picked up on or can remember before this happened, it seemed to be runing perfectly fine. I just parekd it at a friends house and it wouldn't start up. It would try to start up and it would start once for half a second, then die right away. After that it would just turn over. If I let it sit for a minute it would start and then die again, then just turn over. It did the same thing when the starter died, but I replaced the starter so I'm assuming it's not that (well for a few minutes, then it just quit trying to start cuse the starter totally die). I didn't check the spark, but it's turnign over, so I'm assuming it's geting spark. When my starter died I wasn't sure what was wrong, so I took it into tuffy to get it diagnoised, they said starter was bad, but also that my fuel pressure was low. I didn't replace the fuel pump at this time but I am suspecting it now. I'm gona be home this weekend and week and I'm gona check it out. First thing on my list is to check the fuel pressure. What's the best way to do this, my pos haynes book says there is a bleeder valve where you can check it, but where they show it is right underneath of my brake fluid resivor so I can't get to it. My dad was saying he thinks we can try and break it at the fuel rail (there is a nut there connecting the line to the rail). Any help on what you all think this might be and ways to check would be greatly appericated. Later, Jesse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renner Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 It does sound like a fuel problem. But first check for spark. This is usually the easiest thing to do. If you do not have a fuel pressure gauge, or if the connection is difficult to get to, then there is an easier way to check if it is your fuel pump if the pump itself is easy to get to. You can use an extra 12 volt battery to power just the pump. Just disconnect the factory harness plug on the actual pump and connect the + and – wires from the battery. Just be careful not to spark, your tank should be sealed, buy you never know. You should be able to hear it run. If you don’t hear anything it should be pretty obvious that the pump is dead if you make sure that you are on the correct terminals. Most people can come up with an extra car battery easier then a fuel pressure gauge. Just make sure that you have the correct wires on the correct terminals or the pump will run backwards. If the pump does not seem to be running it could just be bound up. Sometimes this can happen to them as they wear out. You can switch the + and – wires from the extra battery that is powering the pump a few times, this usually helps temporarily free it up so you can drive it to a shop. Just don’t let it run backwards for any amount of time. This is just a way to try and free it up. If the pump spins right away with the extra battery on it with no problems, try and start your car like normal with the pump running off of the battery, if it starts and runs then you know that it was a problem with the power supply to the pump, not the pump itself. So then you can spend your time looking for a faulty fuel pump relay instead of wasting the money on a new pump that you didn’t need. Certain EFI systems are very specific on when the pumps actually run, the ECU uses a number of different inputs to tell the pumps to run depending on the car. It is usually something simple like a relay that goes bad, but maybe a sensor of some type could have gone bad. If the pump itself works, start tracing your wiring diagrams to see where the signal is coming from. If the car still doesn't start with the pump running, and you do have spark, then you will need to check to see if your injectors are firing with a set of noid lights. [ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Renner ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
street pilot Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GT3 Master: Allrigh, last time I was at home my car died. It's a 1991 Saturn SL2. I have no clue what is wrong with it, it showed no signs that I picked up on or can remember before this happened, it seemed to be runing perfectly fine. I just parekd it at a friends house and it wouldn't start up. It would try to start up and it would start once for half a second, then die right away. After that it would just turn over. If I let it sit for a minute it would start and then die again, then just turn over. It did the same thing when the starter died, but I replaced the starter so I'm assuming it's not that (well for a few minutes, then it just quit trying to start cuse the starter totally die). I didn't check the spark, but it's turnign over, so I'm assuming it's geting spark. When my starter died I wasn't sure what was wrong, so I took it into tuffy to get it diagnoised, they said starter was bad, but also that my fuel pressure was low. I didn't replace the fuel pump at this time but I am suspecting it now. I'm gona be home this weekend and week and I'm gona check it out. First thing on my list is to check the fuel pressure. What's the best way to do this, my pos haynes book says there is a bleeder valve where you can check it, but where they show it is right underneath of my brake fluid resivor so I can't get to it. My dad was saying he thinks we can try and break it at the fuel rail (there is a nut there connecting the line to the rail). Any help on what you all think this might be and ways to check would be greatly appericated. Later, Jesse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> what was the weather like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotarded1647545491 Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 GT3 Master, If it is starting then stalling, you have spark. Crank it and keep your foot to the floor until it is running and reving to the rev limiter if possible. By keeping your foot to the floor, you are shutting off the fuel pump. If you do not have spark, let me know, I will help in another direction. Have you checked the plugs?? Pull a couple and see if they smell like gas/fuel fouled. If they are you have too much fuel. If not check the fuel pressure. remove your air box and find where the fuel rail meets the fuel filter line. There should be a fitting for checking pressure. In your Haynes guide it should tell you at what PSI it should be (I cant remember 91s, 97s were 42psi, but I thinks it's slightly lower). If fuel pressure is good, and does not drop more that 2 psi in 5 mins, it is fine. Check your coolant temp sensors, you have 2 I believe,one pcm temp sensor and one enigne coolant temp sensor. They could cause flooding or leaning. They should be on the right side of the engine block (as facing from the front of the car) above the trans bell housing. Remove and look at them. Any cracks, bad. Check both the terminals at the sensor and the harness, any corrosion, BAD. Lastly, You could have bad injectors. Test the resistance of all of them. They should read very close to each other. If yo have an injector pulser, you can exercise them to break free and sticking. If you are wondering why I know Saturns, check my profile! Good luck! Mike [ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: 89TIIdutch ] [ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: 89TIIdutch ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nbodyraser Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 heres my .02........when ya turn the key forward just before the engine cranks...do ya heer the pump turn on???????ill bet ya dont ..just drop the tank spend under a hundred and put a new pump.in tank filter and out board filter ....voila! had 3 cars with identical symptoms.all the same fix....the pump will fail b4 all that other shit.....ya guys really make all this sound really complicated....but its just a car. tongue.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted February 20, 2002 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Uhhh, yeah, I have lots of money to replace something that isn't broken Nbodyracer. Not to flame but I don't replace something to see if it's the problem, I'll find out the problem first and then replace the broken part. Thanks for the advice everyone. I'll check it out this weekend and get back to you with the results. Much appericated. Peace, Jesse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nbodyraser Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 thats the whole point of turning the key to the "run"position if ya dont hear the pump hummmmm there it is but if it turns on ....well.ya know what to do......hey ya put that c in there just to fuck with me didnt ya???is ok i like alittle roast here and there ..keeps me on my toes! NbodyraSer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted February 20, 2002 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nbodyraser: thats the whole point of turning the key to the "run"position if ya dont hear the pump hummmmm there it is but if it turns on ....well.ya know what to do......hey ya put that c in there just to fuck with me didnt ya???is ok i like alittle roast here and there ..keeps me on my toes! NbodyraSer <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lol, it's all good, ya, I didn't really look at your name when I spelled that, but I knew it. I get what your saying, but I want something a little more solid than that. I guess I was just trying to empahise the point that I'm a poor college student. tongue.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nbodyraser Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 im completely hip to broke....i just did this to my calais 2 weeks back...with the fuel press. back to what it should be she runs nice now i spent 37.00 on all the parts at murrays ...youre saturn prob about the same price..the real bitch was droppin the tank with it a little over .75 the way full.!!that sux.i lost less than half a cup throo the whole job..though if your not intamate with your ride or not very mech inclined id pay someone to do it..that sux too..glad i got a (shop with my man devon) we got a 77 mustangII in there now that we tore down doin a little rust repair and painting. and i shaved my other door handle tonite. she should be ready to paint at the end of this month .then ill start building my 72 javelin..that will be my lo 11 sec car!!!!!!!!!!(i hope hi 10) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renner Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nbodyraser: heres my .02........when ya turn the key forward just before the engine cranks...do ya heer the pump turn on???????ill bet ya dont ..just drop the tank spend under a hundred and put a new pump.in tank filter and out board filter ....voila! had 3 cars with identical symptoms.all the same fix....the pump will fail b4 all that other shit.....ya guys really make all this sound really complicated....but its just a car. tongue.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Uh, the pump doesn't always run with the key in the on position. Like I said, DEPENDING ON THE CAR, the ECU is very specific as to when it actually tells the pump to run. Most cars, the pump will only run when you cycle the key for a second. Some cars have fuel pressure sensors, so that the pump will not even run for a second with the key on if the fuel pressure is at an acceptable level. On my car, the ECU uses SIX different inputs to determine pump control. So, if I turn the key to the on position, and I can't hear the fuel pump, that must automatically mean that the pump is bad right? Nope. Let's see, crank angle sensor, air flow meter, engine temp. sensor, ignition switch, throttle sensor, and battery voltage signal. Yep that's six, if the ECU decides that it doesn't like the info that it is getting from any one of these, it may decide not to power the pump. Add to that the fuel pump control relay, the ECU itself being bad, and the possibility of corroded connectors on the pump, and you have increased this to NINE possibilities that could be the problem instead of the pump. My old car, a Mitsu Eclipse, died while driving one day. It had no spark, fuel pressure, or injector signal. A guy that I worked with at the time who was basically just a parts swapper, told me to just go and replace the distributor, since the ECU gets it’s reference signal from the optical disk inside of it. And since in his opinion, that was a poor design, it must fail easily. Well that was a ~$500 dealer only part. Well after testing about everything that I could, I determined that it was in fact the ECU itself. A $125 part from a used car. Plugged it in and the car never had a problem since. Kind of glad I didn’t just throw away $500 on a non-returnable (electrical) part from a dealer. When you are diagnosing a problem with a car, you need to follow some steps to eliminate factors. Could you imagine telling a customer that you replaced EIGHT parts already, and that there car was still not running? Just throwing parts at it till it runs is not a very good way to do things. [ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: Renner ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRN96WS6 Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Renner: Uh, the pump doesn't always run with the key in the on position. Like I said, DEPENDING ON THE CAR, the ECU is very specific as to when it actually tells the pump to run. Most cars, the pump will only run when you cycle the key for a second. Some cars have fuel pressure sensors, so that the pump will not even run for a second with the key on if the fuel pressure is at an acceptable level. On my car, the ECU uses SIX different inputs to determine pump control. So, if I turn the key to the on position, and I can't hear the fuel pump, that must automatically mean that the pump is bad right? Nope. Let's see, crank angle sensor, air flow meter, engine temp. sensor, ignition switch, throttle sensor, and battery voltage signal. Yep that's six, if the ECU decides that it doesn't like the info that it is getting from any one of these, it may decide not to power the pump. Add to that the fuel pump control relay, the ECU itself being bad, and the possibility of corroded connectors on the pump, and you have increased this to NINE possibilities that could be the problem instead of the pump. My old car, a Mitsu Eclipse, died while driving one day. It had no spark, fuel pressure, or injector signal. A guy that I worked with at the time who was basically just a parts swapper, told me to just go and replace the distributor, since the ECU gets it’s reference signal from the optical disk inside of it. And since in his opinion, that was a poor design, it must fail easily. Well that was a ~$500 dealer only part. Well after testing about everything that I could, I determined that it was in fact the ECU itself. A $125 part from a used car. Plugged it in and the car never had a problem since. Kind of glad I didn’t just throw away $500 on a non-returnable (electrical) part from a dealer. When you are diagnosing a problem with a car, you need to follow some steps to eliminate factors. Could you imagine telling a customer that you replaced EIGHT parts already, and that there car was still not running? Just throwing parts at it till it runs is not a very good way to do things. [ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: Renner ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Damn that's so true and sad thing is a lot of places hardly test anymore they start replacing parts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted February 20, 2002 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MR. EARS: Damn that's so true and sad thing is a lot of places hardly test anymore they start replacing parts <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, when it went bad over the summer, like I said, they told me it was the starter and fuel pump. They said they defintely though the starter was bad (at this point you would just hear the relays click and it wouldn't try to turn over at all, the start totally died) and that the fuel pressure was low. They wanted like 700 for parts and labor, fuck that, I'll do it myself. They did want to replace the fuel pump first then if it still didn't work then the starter, didn't make sense to me becuase the starter was bad, why not replace that first. Well I replaced the starter for like 100 bucks and a short day of furstation and the problem was fixed, I hate auto shops. I replace everything on my car myself, last thing I had done at a shop, replacemetn wise was 2 and a half years ago, egr stuff and tires. Since then I've done brakes (pads, disc and calipers), starter, alternator, 02 snesor, ideler and tenisoner all by my lonesome, with the help of my dad. My engine did allmost fall out once, I had my car and fabraction genius friend fix that one for me. Oh yeah, for whoever was saying something about the spark plugs being fowled, my car has new plugs too, just replaced them this summer for shits because I knew they were old and it takes like 2 seconds, along with the plug wires, so I would doubt that my plugs are fowled allread when the old ones wern't that bad, but I'll check them though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifford Automotive Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Uh, the pump doesn't always run with the key in the on position. Like I said, DEPENDING ON THE CAR, the ECU is very specific as to when it actually tells the pump to run. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Your right but every car "primes" the pump at the first turn to the on position... If you put the key in and turn it to "on" and dont here the pump prime then its the pump...If you want something more solid if your car is not starting and your doing all this cranking...do you smell gas...if you dont smell gas after cranking it a few times its pretty obviuos what the problem is Everyone seems to be trying to give you all these "educated" answers that wont do you a whole lot but confuse you... If you need help get a hold of me and I could possible come to you if you need more assistance... Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifford Automotive Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So, if I turn the key to the on position, and I can't hear the fuel pump, that must automatically mean that the pump is bad right? Nope. Let's see, crank angle sensor, air flow meter, engine temp. sensor, ignition switch, throttle sensor, and battery voltage signal. Yep that's six, if the ECU decides that it doesn't like the info that it is getting from any one of these, it may decide not to power the pump <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just as I read agian... its sucks that your car need to be running to get usable signals from these...(at initial on position) all read zero thats 0...this means your cars computer does not use any signals to prime or not prime your pump... Your "Fuel Pump Relay" primes the pump at initial power...then runs the pump at start up... Who ever said the fuel pump shuts off when the pedal is floored...think about that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted February 20, 2002 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 383Iroc: Everyone seems to be trying to give you all these "educated" answers that wont do you a whole lot but confuse you... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> U calling me stupid? j/k They made perfect sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renner Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Your right but every car "primes" the pump at the first turn to the on position... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Uh, I am sorry to sound like a dick, but this is not true at all. How can you state something like this, have you worked on every car ever produced? Like I said, for the third time now, NOT EVERY CAR will run the pumps when you turn the car on. Some do, and some do not. Some cars, mostly German cars, have a fuel pressure sensor at the engine. If the pressure is within the correct limit, the fuel pump will not run with the key in the “on” position, at all. To get the pumps to run you actually have to unplug the pressure sensor switch so that the ECU sees an open circuit, thus firing off a signal to the fuel pump relay(s). Otherwise the ECU actually needs to get a signal from the crank or cam angle reference sensor before the fuel pump relay(s) will be powered. Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, and VW all have used a type of this system. This is mostly found with a Bosch control unit system, and since Bosch has some form of parts are on pretty much anything mass produced in the past 10 years, I am sure that there are more cars out there that use a form of this, not just German cars. I work at a shop where we work on German cars pretty much exclusively. I can’t say that I have even had to touch a Saturn in at least the past 3 years. So instead of automatically telling him that he should always hear his pump, all that I stated was that you should do a bit more diagnosing then that to be sure. If you will read, my very first sentence was: “It does sound like a fuel problem. But first check for spark. This is usually the easiest thing to do” Very next sentence: “If you do not have a fuel pressure gauge, or if the connection is difficult to get to, then there is an easier way to check if it is your fuel pump if the pump itself is easy to get to” gee sounds kind of like I was telling him to check his pump first and giving him a couple of different ways to do it. I also wouldn’t want him to inspect all of the things that I was talking about in my second post, that was just to demonstrate that there can be and often are other problems behind it, and not to automatically assume that it is the pump. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you put the key in and turn it to "on" and dont here the pump prime then its the pump...If you want something more solid if your car is not starting and your doing all this cranking...do you smell gas...if you dont smell gas after cranking it a few times its pretty obviuos what the problem is<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What if he does have fuel pressure but the injectors are not firing? How is he supposed to smell gas then? You stated that it would be pretty obvious if he did not smell gas, but that leaves a whole bunch of things not covered. Sounds pretty obvious to a parts swapper. Just replace the pump, if not replace something else.... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Your "Fuel Pump Relay" primes the pump at initial power...then runs the pump at start up... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are correct, the fuel pump relay is the power source for the fuel pump, hence it’s name. But on many EFI cars, including mine for example, the signal wire to cycle the fuel pump relay to the closed or “on” position IS in fact controlled by the ECU and the ECU alone. The relay is just a switch, it cannot decide when to do things without some sort of signal wire to close the switch. This is the wire usually coming from the ECU. I am sorry that this post had to turn into a pissing contest about who knows more, but I do know what I am talking about, trust me. I can show you a factory manual about the fuel operating systems if you like. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Everyone seems to be trying to give you all these "educated" answers that wont do you a whole lot but confuse you...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would assume that this is directed at me. I guess this means that you would rather take the “uneducated” approach to solving this problem? I am sorry if these answers don’t do a whole lot but confuse you, but it is called process of elimination. That is why in my very first post I tried to give him a few simple things to do and a couple different ways to do it. [ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: Renner ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted February 21, 2002 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Renner: I am sorry that this post had to turn into a pissing contest about who knows more, [ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: Renner ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah me too, but it's allright, I got what I needed. I'm dumb anyways according to them, I can't even understand what I say let alone what you try to explain to me, on that note I guess there is no need to discuss this anymore... well maybe not till this weekend when I dismantel my car and still can't figure it out because it's something totally different than what I suspect. It wouldn't suprise me, I mean I haven't been right about what was wrong with my car every other time, making educated well though out guesses about what seemed to be wrong. I can't do that, I'm dumb, forget about that. Shit, everyone listen up. If I start to not sound dumb at any point on here or when you meet me, correct me and remind me of how dumb I am. Thank you 383 IROC and NbodyraSer, you've shown me the light. [ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: GT3 Master ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hwilli1647545487 Posted February 21, 2002 Report Share Posted February 21, 2002 On that note... CLOSED POST Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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