Guest sphen02 Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 well..ive seen this done before a few times...and im not too sure about the reliability....but i was curious to see wether or not you think it could be pulled off and still used on a semi-regular basis...basically what it would intail...is swapping out my 4a-ge engine ive got right now for the 4a-gze which is the factory supercharged version...and then putting a turbo on it...the basic concept behind it is...the supercharger gives instant boost...and allows the turbo to spool faster...well lemme know what u think...supposedly...id be putting down 350 to the wheels in a 2000lb car...that would be pretty nice...thats why im thinkin bout it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 How are the internals and tranny and drivelines on the non-turbo compared to the turbo?? Sometims (al la sr20 style) the internals are the same, do some research on that. If you can put down 350 and put a turbo kit on it yourself, I would go that route for numerouse reasons. Obviously if your engine can't handel that much in stock for then you will need to buy the stock turboed engine. These are the reasons I would stick with your engine, if you can. You probably can't put down 350 on the stock turbo with the stock turbocharged engine, so regardless you'll need to buy a turbo. As well as you'll need to upgrade your your fuel system, probably have some form of tuning (at least a rrfpr/fuel pump/injectors, maybe an safc or something like that) all of which you would need to buy, except for the rrfpr (with that kind of power you might need to replace the stock fpr on the turboed engine, which is probably a 1:1), if you bought the turbo charged engine. I guess my point is that to put down 350 on the turboed engine you will need to buy more stuff that just the engine, probably allmost as much stuff as you would buy to turbo your engine, and you'll learn alot more turboing your own engine. Why I think twin charging is stupid; it's very hard to do for one, not many people have done it (how many peoople have turboed your engine/moded the turobed one, lots of info out there on it), it's expensive, not worth the money at all. You'll get a little extra perfomance on the low end, but hell, if your trying to push that kind of power you won't need a huge turbo that has alot of lag. My turbo is good for that much and I get full bost (only set to 10psi right now) by 2500rpm. If you size the turbo proper to your application and 'design' everything right and do your homework, steal from peoples experinces with turboing your engine/moding the stock turboed (just depends on which route is more fesiable), you'll have minimal turbo spool up time. Hell, that little 4 banger revs to what, and you'll have full bost by 3k, reve it to 7k, shift, you're defintely not below 3k again. And you won't be launching at idel either, so that will put you closer to full boost. Turbo spool up time is so fucking over-rated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraGlue Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 HKS used to make a turbo kit for the 4A-GZE. It's out of production now. Some of the parts might be hard to find, but if you really wanted to do that, it would be the way to go. I'd go with what Jess said. Turbocharge the 4A-GE. To get to over 300hp, you'll still have nice spool with a T3/T4. Strip some weight out (no, rust does NOT count tongue.gif ) and you'll be all good. I'm sure you can find a used 4A-GE to build/rebuild while you have your current one still in the car. Once the new one is built, swap it in and you're set. Don't forget to budget in a clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
controler Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 I agree a supercharger/turbo setup isn't cost effective, but possible none the less. 4A-GZE from japan would bolt right up, and HKS made a pully for the supercharger that enabled more boost (which I am sure you know) That is the route I would take. The 4A-GZE had what 170 or 180 hp in japan, and with the pully, that would take it above 200, and in such a small car, power to weight would be pretty good. Once the motor was running good, I would concentrate on the body and suspension aspect. But that is just what I would do, because I live on a budget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 retard mode, i thought the 'other' engine was turboed stock, it's supercharged stock. I personally don't like superchargers (esp. non-centerifugal ones), harder to do stuff to (like any type of intercooler), rob more power from you. plus good luck finding a supercharger upgrade to get you to 350 at the wheels. it's much easier to find a turbo to do that (hell, you could probably do some calcs and have half a dozen different varaients to choes from). I like the idea of puting down less power and doing other mods (weight reduction, suspension, tires). Not necesairly less power, but find out how much people turboing your engine are puting down safely with a minimal setup (everything you need to turbo it, fuel pump, rrfpr), nothign to drastic. Go for what you know will not break driveline shit (tranny/rearend). You might not be able to get around an eventual tranny rebuild though (don't know how your driveline stacks up?) Another retard mode, clutch, duh. Thanks Mark. We should talk sometime, I've got a few good books that you could borrow too. Wana come over and play drinking Rouldph tonight (8pm)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sphen02 Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 dude i would if i hadnt come home this weekend...but as far as the stock internals go on the base 4a-ge theyre non-forged....i think my injectors are something like 125's...something unGodly low like that...OEM clutch is good for something like 140hp..hehe so yeah id have to replace that...need a new one anyways....the 4a-gze...is good for something like 160-165 hp from japan....but its got forged internals...distributorless ignition and a few other goodies like that as well as higher compression ratio...the t-vis equiped 4a-ge's(what i have) only have like 97 ftlbs of torque...where as the 4a-gze has something closer to 150..thats my main reason for wanting that....and i like the idea of twin charging...itd be pretty impresive to pull off...but it probably is a helluva lot more practical just to turbo it i suppose..get new injectors pistons etc...etc. EDIT: the compression ration difference isnt too big...i think mine is like 8.0:1...as opposed to 8.5:1...ill check later on and let u know [ 13 December 2002, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: The Cow Car ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sphen02 Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 Originally posted by The Strawberry Shortcake: retard mode, i thought the 'other' engine was turboed stock, it's supercharged stock. I personally don't like superchargers (esp. non-centerifugal ones), harder to do stuff to (like any type of intercooler), rob more power from you. plus good luck finding a supercharger upgrade to get you to 350 at the wheels. it's much easier to find a turbo to do that (hell, you could probably do some calcs and have half a dozen different varaients to choes from). its not a supercharger mod....its adding a turbo charger ontop of it...thats how i would get 350 to the wheels...the basic idea behind it is...the supercharger give the instant boost in power...spooling the turbo quicker...and the boost from the turbo then bypasses the supercharger...something like that...its a crazy set up but when done right yeilds impressive results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraGlue Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 How much can you get the 4A-GZE for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sphen02 Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 Originally posted by Stolen UFO: How much can you get the 4A-GZE for?last time i looked for one it was something like $1250...and if i was gonna turbo a 4a-ge...id need a new one anyways...my engine has 198k on it...i really dont see it taking to boost too well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraGlue Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 The 4A-GZE swap makes more sense, then. That price is decent considering the power upgrade it represents. If twincharging proves to be too complex, it's always possible to remove the supercharger and just run a turbo if you get bored with the power level. There is probably some custom fabrication involved if the parts don't already exist. What size injectors does the GZE come with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sphen02 Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 ok...here are the specs on the 4agze the 1988-1990 model had 8.0 compression and it made and 145ps(dont know the conversion to hp)@6400rpm max torque is 19 kg/cm@4400rpm the 1990-91 model had 8.9 compression and made 165ps@6400rpm and made 21kg/cm@4400rpm the 1992-95 model had 8.9 compression and made 170ps@6400 and had 21kg/cm@4400. so thats the figures on the 4a-gzes...they used 365cc injectors.. my current engine has...9.4 compression...i thought it was lower...max hp is 130@6600rpm...max torque is 15.2kg/cm@5200rpm.. it has 182cc injectors..8 port t-vis... so yeah those are the comparison numbers...i could always get a 20V 4a-ge....and then turbo that i suppose...they made 160hp@7400rpm and 16.5kg/cm@5200rpm...but had 10.5 compression...they also used 295cc injectors...and had side feed injectors as opposed to top feed..i dunno...just kinda seeing what my options are at this point...anyway i go about it, it will give good results...and give me a helluva lot better acceleration...then i just gotta beef up my old suspension....anybody know about the JIC suspensions? how well they compare to tein... EDIT: I have also heard that the AE86 accepts a 3s-gte swap pretty readily...that would be another option [ 13 December 2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: The Cow Car ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraGlue Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 By my math, it looks like those injectors can flow enough to get you safely to around 225rwhp. Anything more, and you're looking at some kind of fuel system. For the power level you want (350), you'll need to upgrade to ~550cc injectors. A single Bosch or Nippondenso (e.g. MKIV) fuel pump would get you enough flow. Used Supra pumps can be had fairly inexpensively, and I'd run an AFC to keep fuel control simple and cheap. Sounds like the supercharger isn't doing a hell of a lot. Any idea what stock boost was? As far as the different motors, it depends on how much boost you plan to run. I'm tempted to think that the 8.9 CR one would be a better choice if you went turbo only, due to better off boost performance. A decent intercooler (Isuzu NPR or Starion or even MKIV side mount) should keep it out of detonation up to a moderate boost level on pump gas. EDIT: Just read your edit. If the 3S is a straightforward swap and you can get one at a reasonable price, I would totally do that. Great motor, and easy on upgrades. The sky is the limit with that. [ 13 December 2002, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Stolen UFO ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sphen02 Posted December 14, 2002 Report Share Posted December 14, 2002 the 4a-gze runs at 8psi...from what ive seen online...not too sure...but i think thats right...its a roots style blower...and from what they said...on club4ag.com...about the 3s-gte...."It's a difficult proposition to fit it onto a A-series engine car"....but ive seen a few examples of it...it is a larger engine...2.0 as opposed to 1.6...but there is a whole lotta space under my hood;)...i dunno ill have to look into it more. EDIT:i did once see someone cram a 1jz-gte into it from the j-spec mkiii supras...there was alot of work that went into it im sure...but in that same respect with alot of work i could prolly squeeze a 2jz-gte in it smile.gif ...but i would never do that...too much risk of destroying the 50/50 weight distribution [ 14 December 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: The Cow Car ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
controler Posted December 14, 2002 Report Share Posted December 14, 2002 Originally posted by Stolen UFO: By my math, it looks like those injectors can flow enough to get you safely to around 225rwhp. How did you go about doing that calculation? And the HKS pully raised pressure up to 12psi. smile.gif stupid me for thinking this was going on a mr2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraGlue Posted December 14, 2002 Report Share Posted December 14, 2002 I used the formula: hp = (flow rate * number of injectors * duty cycle) / brake specific fuel consumption For flow rate, I used 35 lb/hr, which is just about right on for 365cc. For BSFC, I used .5. This may be a little optimistic. For duty cycle, I used an absolute max 90% since he's talking about top feed injectors. Knocking off 10-12% driveline loss estimated for a manual, you end up around 220-225 at the wheels. The only way to know for sure is with tuning, but I'd say that without jacking up fuel pressure, my best guess is that the four 365cc injectors aren't going to safely give much past 225rwhp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sphen02 Posted December 14, 2002 Report Share Posted December 14, 2002 Originally posted by Stolen UFO: I used the formula: hp = (flow rate * number of injectors * duty cycle) / brake specific fuel consumption For flow rate, I used 35 lb/hr, which is just about right on for 365cc. For BSFC, I used .5. This may be a little optimistic. For duty cycle, I used an absolute max 90% since he's talking about top feed injectors. Knocking off 10-12% driveline loss estimated for a manual, you end up around 220-225 at the wheels. The only way to know for sure is with tuning, but I'd say that without jacking up fuel pressure, my best guess is that the four 365cc injectors aren't going to safely give much past 225rwhp.damn mark....im just a little bit more than impressed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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