catholics

[copperhead]

Originally posted by Mowgli:

Anyhow - I think you're confusing the term "form" of government with the body of government. That is, a collection of dudes standing around we call "the government". If you think of government as how people relate to one another, or how they govern themselves, then you'll see what I mean. anarchy as a form of governing. The form where everybody does their own thing, indulges their own desires, no rules.

Ok, now that you put it that way, what you said makes complete sense.

[Casper]

Mowgli, this one's directly to you for the last time.

I'M NOT ANTI-CATHOLIC

I'M NOT ANTI-RELIGION

I DIDN'T SAY CATHOLICS ARE MORONS

I DIDN'T SAY GO TO HELL POPE

 

Okay. Now with that said:

The pope / hell thing was in response to someone saying I was evil. I simply replied saying the pope going to hell would be evil. I don't debate. I tell it how it is / how I see it. If I'm wrong, I openly accept being corrected. Being anti-organized religion doesn't make me anti-religion. You really need to figure that one out. I'm getting sick of you saying I'm anti-catholic/religion. I believe there is a God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in a Heaven and a Hell. I've read the Bible a few times. I pray at night before I lay to sleep. But I don't believe in going to a church and paying money is the way to Heaven. Jesus' "church" was outside, standing on a rock. He didn't need a huge building with extravagant statues, paintings, and stained glass. Now, gathering to share in your beliefs is a different story. I often do go to church just for that. But I don't believe you have to go to church in order to be a Christian or whatever. Saying the Catholics should apologize or whatever for the violence in the past is flat out retarded. I'm German. The fuck if I'm going to apologize for my ancestors killing Jews. Do I think it was wrong? Sure. Was it me? No. As for the anarchy thing: you nailed it pretty good. Wow. I'm glad to see this thread actually going somewhere. The whole God in a coffee mug thing is interesting. If you're sitting in your house, can you describe what it looks like on the inside? Can you describe the basic outside characteristics from inside? Yeah, for the most part. You can see where the windows are, what shape and size it is, etc. No, you can't describe it completely, but you can get a good idea. I personally think it is bullshit that evolution and the whole big bang theory are taught in school they way it is. In high school we spent maybe twenty minutes on creation, and several weeks on evolution. That's pretty fucked up. Schools, for the most part, are trying to say evolution is the way it happened. Okay, I'm done ranting for today. Be back soon.

[Mowgli1647545497]

Originally posted by satan:

But I don't believe in going to a church and paying money is the way to Heaven. Jesus' "church" was outside, standing on a rock. He didn't need a huge building with extravagant statues, paintings, and stained glass.

Do you beleive modern catholics think they do? Because on the surface this statement implies it.

 

I'll mention that alot of catholics today choose to look on old things like the Sistine Chapel built hundreds of years ago by people nobody today has met or talked to as a monument to god. Not a fancy house for some pompous dude in a pointy hat that reminds some people of some old guy they were scared of as a kid. But we're dumb like that. And last I looked it wasn't armed with non-catholic seeking missles, so I don't see how these architectural expressions of love, awe, wonder, and thanks are repressing anyone else's faith.

 

Maybe its the mind ray projector built into the dome by da Vinci. Could be that.

 

Originally posted by satan:

I'M NOT ANTI-CATHOLIC

I must have been confused by the thread titled "fuck catholics", but moving on...

 

You can't describe the outside of the system - in this metaphor, the house - because you can't assume anything about the boundaries of the system, the walls of the house. Are they 4" thick walls all around? Uniform? Is the outside paint green? Is there a big external garage tacked on the side? Are there porcelain elephants glued to the roof? You have no way to know. All you can do as an internal observer is guess. Mistaking assumption for axiom is a error unthorough scientists who jump to conclusions make. Einstein and Newton "got it". And Stephen Hawking seems to be coming around slowly.

 

[ 07. April 2005, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Mowgli ]

[Orion]

interjection...

 

protestants DO NOT all believe in predestination. thats more of a calvinistic view.

 

thats all. this is good stuff.

[Dr. Pomade]

I disagree. The way I understand it is that Protestantism, as a faith, is based on several basic principles, with one being pre-destination, or the notion that salvation is a gift from God and not something that can be earned. Thus, all Protestants, on some level, adhere to the notion of predestination.

 

Calvin was a Protestant - Calvinism is a sub-theology of Protestantism. He alone did not believe in predestination; other Protestants before him were saying the same things, just not with all of the fire and brimstone.

 

Then again, maybe I'm wrong.

[ORourke]

The Puritans were big on predestination, but the protestant churches I'm familar with don't believe that. Predestination kinda kills the whole "born again" thing. If you're already going to hell why bother?

[Dr. Pomade]

Again, I think Puritanism is a sub-theology of Protestanism. The way I understand it, if it's not Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, and it's Christian, then, by default, it's Protestanism. There are only those three major branches of Christianity. So, whether or not you cite Calvinism, or Puritanism, or any other of the -ism's that are an off-shoot of Protestantism, then you are working with a faith, that at it's root, believes that salvation is predestined, not earned.

[ORourke]

I brought up Puritans as an example of a sect that believes in predestination. Most protestant sects don't.

[Mensan]

Originally posted by Dr. Z06:

I disagree. The way I understand it is that Protestantism, as a faith, is based on several basic principles, with one being pre-destination, or the notion that salvation is a gift from God and not something that can be earned. Thus, all Protestants, on some level, adhere to the notion of predestination.

 

Calvin was a Protestant - Calvinism is a sub-theology of Protestantism. He alone did not believe in predestination; other Protestants before him were saying the same things, just not with all of the fire and brimstone.

 

Then again, maybe I'm wrong.

False syllogism. You are bringing up ONE example of a protestant. DJ said not all protestants believe...

[Orion]

as a matter of fact, i have said to quite a few christians that predestination is not only incorrect, it actually runs counter to some of the most basic principles of christianity.

 

actually, john, numerous protestant denominations believe that predestination is false.

 

initially, you are correct. when the church split, predestination was a prerequisite for protestant belief. in the centuries since, although still a fairly hot topic, it no longer is a defining point in the protestant church.

 

I'M NOT ANTI-CATHOLIC

whats the title of this thread again?

[Casper]

a) the title of this thread is "catholics". where do you see "fuck catholics"?

 

b) dj's right, not all protestants believe in predestination. in fact, most don't. predestination is another one of those stupid things someone made up. like the mormon religion.

 

c) i agree with the coffee cup theory.

[Dr. Pomade]

First, let me start by reiterating:

 

Originally posted by Dr. Z06:

Then again, maybe I'm wrong.

Next:

 

Originally posted by O'Rourke:

I brought up Puritans as an example of a sect that believes in predestination. Most protestant sects don't.

And you know this how?

[Dr. Pomade]

Originally posted by Mensan:

False syllogism. You are bringing up ONE example of a protestant. DJ said not all protestants believe...

You must have missed the paragraph that directly preceded the one you responded to:

 

Originally posted by Dr. Z06:

I disagree. The way I understand it is that Protestantism, as a faith, is based on several basic principles, with one being pre-destination, or the notion that salvation is a gift from God and not something that can be earned. Thus, all Protestants, on some level, adhere to the notion of predestination.

[Dr. Pomade]

Originally posted by Orion:

actually, john, numerous protestant denominations believe that predestination is false.

Not sure you can adequately defend that statement, but I'll let you have it.

 

Originally posted by Orion:

initially, you are correct. when the church split, predestination was a prerequisite for protestant belief. in the centuries since, although still a fairly hot topic, it no longer is a defining point in the protestant church.

Okay, gotcha.

 

So, all Catholics can buy their way into heaven, and now some Protestants can too.

[Dr. Pomade]

BTW, it's nice to have the opportunity to debate with bright people. smile.gif

[Mowgli1647545497]

Originally posted by satan:

a) the title of this thread is "catholics". where do you see "fuck catholics"?

Original title. Since editted.

Originally posted by Dr. Z06:

BTW, it's nice to have the opportunity to debate with bright people. smile.gif

I hate debating religion. Its always half history.

 

Lets talk about bewbs or beers.

[Guest 04GreyGT]

Originally posted by Eatonup:

Let's not start a holy war on CR. I'm not a fan of organized religion but I do have respect for ones religious beliefs. I suggest that some of you do the same.

Holy wars are freaking sweet...look what its done for the Middle East.

 

Lets have an all out CR Holy War, whose views are the most stupid...

Catholics vs. Jews vs. Protestants vs. Aethiests vs. Hindus vs. Buddhists

[rl]

Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and all the other reformers of that period were predestinarians. Predestination was a reformist idea, it differed from branch to branch.

 

Luther believed in a single predestination where god was just responsible for the salvation of those he chose, those he didn't choose where responsible for their own damnation.

 

Calvin's version of predestination is what's commonly thought of, god chose those for salvation and those for damnation. Human responsibility did not come into play at all.

 

 

I don't know how that plays into the thread, but I figure for as much as I pay for school I might as well use it every once and a while.

[Guest doggunracing]

Presbyterians believe in predestination. John Knox founded the denomination based on Calvin's teachings.

 

Baptists only believe conditionally; that one must have faith, then can be 'chosen'.

 

Methodists reject predestination. Episcopalians accept it as does the Church of England (Anglican).

 

Predestination is directly opposed by a multitude of passages in the Bible. Calvinism seems directly opposed to the whole tenor of Jesus's teaching on Good Works and Jesus's constant exhortations to us to make the right choices. Why should He have spent so much of his ministry on this sort of teaching if we did not have the Free Will to profit by it? This is one reason why Free Will has always been so important to the historic Church, and why our deeds, (or works) are vitally important.

 

We can see that the Bible also denies the idea of irresistible grace, showing that our Free Will does affect its action:

 

2 Cor 6: 1 As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. (NIV).

 

The Bible shows clearly that God wants everyone to be saved, and that He has not predestined anyone for damnation.

 

1 Timothy 2.3-4: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

2 Peter 3; 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV).

 

1 John 2: 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (NIV).

[Orion]

heh, didnt even get a chance to respond.

 

john, these two guys (^) have the idea, listen to them.

[Casper]

Originally posted by Mowgli:

I hate debating religion. Its always half history.

 

Lets talk about bewbs or beers.

that's the most fucking intelligent thing posted in this thread so far!!!!!!!!!!

 

chicks and beer!!!!!!!!

 

http://www.barbecueamerica.com/images/beer%20butt%20buddies2.jpg

[rl]

Originally posted by satan:

that's the most fucking intelligent thing posted in this thread so far!!!!!!!!!!

 

chicks and beer!!!!!!!!

 

http://www.barbecueamerica.com/images/beer%20butt%20buddies2.jpg

Sweet jesus, beer butt chicken is amazing. MMMMM.

[Casper]

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jjho/betaparty-me%20&%20the%20twins.JPG

[Casper]

http://www.flysrb.com/Nice%20Beer%20Koozie.jpg

[Casper]

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jjho/betaparty-menna,%20nicole,%20me,%20courtney%20&%20mary.JPG