Dec 7th

[black00ws6]

Yesterday, Dec. 7, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

 

The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with the government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

 

Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleagues delivered to the Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack.

 

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time, the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

 

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. Very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

 

Yesterday, the Japanese government also launched an attack against Malaya.

 

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.

 

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Guam.

 

Last night, Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.

 

Last night, the Japanese attacked Wake Island.

 

This morning, the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

 

Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

 

As commander in chief of the Army and Navy, I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense.

 

Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us.

 

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.

 

I believe I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again.

 

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.

 

With confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounding determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us God.

 

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, Dec. 7, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese empire.

 

 

 

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/03dohc/01.jpg

 

http://www.cetsdigitaltreasures.com/images/pearlmemorial1.jpg

 

 

I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to visit Pearl Harbor last year, it's definately a place that every American should visit. I was in NY a year after the towers fell to see the big holes in the ground, yet seeing the Arizona still under water was more moving. I hope to get to see Normandy eventually.

[black00ws6]

Um, today is the 7th..

 

 

Um, that was FDR's speech...

[Science Abuse]

Um, today is the 7th..

You get a cookie.

http://www.gift-baskets-4u.com/images/Cookies/Chocolate%20Cookie%20With%20White%20Chocolate%20Chips%20.jpg

 

The suprise attack was strategicaly the best thing that happened to us in the pacific theater. Had our pacific fleet left the harbor to engage the japanese armada on open water, it would have been totaly overwhealmed. At least some ships survived the attack. Japan learned a valuable lesson about the idiocy of preemptive strikes.

[smokin5s]

dee deee deeeeeeeeeeeee

[Mojoe]

I went to the memorial 2 weeks after I was station in Hawaii, in the mid nineties. It is definitly a moving sight.

[OSUGT]

I was at the U.S.S Arizona Memorial last November. It certainly is moving. However, what struck me as odd was the number of Japanese tourists visiting the site. From a personal standpoint, if I (as an American) ever visit Japan, I would not make it close to the Hiroshima(sp) or Nagasaki (sp) memorials.

 

It was just weird seeing them there. That's all.

 

Later

[singleturbo3kgt]

I think the guy who was aboard the aircraft that dropped the A bomb is still alive in cleveland.

[Dr. Pomade]

In response to OSUGT, that is odd. I wonder what's going on with that. I'm with you; I wouldn't, if visiting Japan, seek out memorials or whatever associated with our bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

First, maybe they weren't Japanese, but maybe other Asians? Not to say that you're wrong, but, I'm perplexed by your observations and, in thinking of explanations, we would have to consider that as one of them.

 

Admittedly, I don't know that much about Japanese culture. My impression is the Japanese, much more than Americans, are motivated by shame - it's, at least to me, very much a part of their culture. I wonder then if those Japanese tourists - if, they were, Japanese - were there to, I don't know, maybe express some remorse out of collective shame for what had been done? I know, I'm stretching here.

 

My impression is that the Japanese are also highly sensitive over WWII and, most importantly, over the fact that they lost it. Sure, Americans are sensitive over the issue too - just reading the stuff above from FDR and hearing you guys talk about the Arizona stirs feelings of patriotism in me - but my thinking is that the issue hits the Japanese at a whole different level of sensitivity. Again, I don't really know, but maybe that whole thing would explain why the Japanese would visit Pearl Harbor but we wouldn't visit Hiroshima.

[Science Abuse]

In response to OSUGT, that is odd. I wonder what's going on with that. I'm with you; I wouldn't, if visiting Japan, seek out memorials or whatever associated with our bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

First, maybe they weren't Japanese, but maybe other Asians? Not to say that you're wrong, but, I'm perplexed by your observations and, in thinking of explanations, we would have to consider that as one of them.

 

Admittedly, I don't know that much about Japanese culture. My impression is the Japanese, much more than Americans, are motivated by shame - it's, at least to me, very much a part of their culture. I wonder then if those Japanese tourists - if, they were, Japanese - were there to, I don't know, maybe express some remorse out of collective shame for what had been done? I know, I'm stretching here.

 

My impression is that the Japanese are also highly sensitive over WWII and, most importantly, over the fact that they lost it. Sure, Americans are sensitive over the issue too - just reading the stuff above from FDR and hearing you guys talk about the Arizona stirs feelings of patriotism in me - but my thinking is that the issue hits the Japanese at a whole different level of sensitivity. Again, I don't really know, but maybe that whole thing would explain why the Japanese would visit Pearl Harbor but we wouldn't visit Hiroshima.

The rest of asia hates Japan, wouldn't be suprised to see Chinese there.

 

Despite the fact that, 65 years ago, Japan was an imperialist state, conquering territory and expanding their influence, many Japanese dislike Amercans because they see us as capital imperialist. You see it as a rather conspicuous undertone to many forms japanese fictional entertainment. I'm pretty sure they still dont like us, and take pride in whatever victories they got against us. Both Germany and Japan responded to their losses in very different ways. Germans dont bring it up because they're psuedo'embarased, they just dont wanna hear about it. Japanese dont bring it up because they are not happy with loosing, it's another shame thing. Probably because the Germans realized their leadership and their cause were absolutely fucking insane, where as the Japanese case wasn't insane, greedy yes, but fairly sane. Many Japanese beleive they were taken out of the war by what can technicaly be defined as the greatest acts of terrorist in history. I.E. "the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political in nature". A quarter million civilians killed in less then a collective minute of bombing non military targets, not to mention the deaths and deformities that followed. And I think most Americans know it. Would you visit Berlin? Would you hesitate to visit any of the war memorials of WWII? Perhaps the sites of little towns that were bombed out of exsistence? No, they're all common spots for tourists to visit. People visit Pacific battle sites all the time. Midway, Okinawa (great beaches), etc etc, but no one visits Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Why? Because we know we did some fucked up shit to those people. Ho Chi Mein city probably gets more American toursists then those two cities combined.

 

But then again, the Asian tourist just likes to see sites and take pictures. It's a stereotype, but its an earned one.

[Orion]

to add to what eric said, another serendipitous aspect of the pearl harbor attack was that none of our aircraft carriers were at port, and we lost many of our battleships to air action, thus beginning the change of opinion in military circles (for the better) that the battleship had gone the way of the ironclad, and that this war, and those following would be won not by who had the biggest guns, but by who had the ability to project power over the furthest distance. (i.e., airpower)

 

this is one of my favorite subjects, btw. wwII, and specifically, the naval war in the pacific.

[SPLN SUX]

Know i personally dont see it to be an issue with japanese people wanting to see the monument. If they start lighting off fireworks and having a party... then we have a serious problem. I mean after all, it wasnt the vistors who did it. Perhaps they want to see history up close and personal... to see how dumb the entire world was at the time. I would deffinatly go to a japanese monument. Sure you can read about the destruction and look at pictures... but to actully be there is somehting differnet. I wouldnt be proud of it, but at the same time... that was way before almost any of us.

 

I mean realy, there are people like my uncle Bob who would probably kick every Japanese persons ass if he had the chance because of Pearl harbor... shit he shuns anyone who still drives a Japanese car. But then there are people of the younger generation who are going to be the same way in the future about the middle east because of the USS Cole, 9/11, the British subway (i had family there at the time)... so sure, ill be the same way in the future... but about what happend in my time, not what happend before me.

[AngryBMW]

The rest of asia hates Japan, wouldn't be suprised to see Chinese there.

 

Despite the fact that, 65 years ago, Japan was an imperialist state, conquering territory and expanding their influence, many Japanese dislike Amercans because they see us as capital imperialist. You see it as a rather conspicuous undertone to many forms japanese fictional entertainment. I'm pretty sure they still dont like us, and take pride in whatever victories they got against us. Both Germany and Japan responded to their losses in very different ways. Germans dont bring it up because they're psuedo'embarased, they just dont wanna hear about it. Japanese dont bring it up because they are not happy with loosing, it's another shame thing. Probably because the Germans realized their leadership and their cause were absolutely fucking insane, where as the Japanese case wasn't insane, greedy yes, but fairly sane. Many Japanese beleive they were taken out of the war by what can technicaly be defined as the greatest acts of terrorist in history. I.E. "the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political in nature". A quarter million civilians killed in less then a collective minute of bombing non military targets, not to mention the deaths and deformities that followed. And I think most Americans know it. Would you visit Berlin? Would you hesitate to visit any of the war memorials of WWII? Perhaps the sites of little towns that were bombed out of exsistence? No, they're all common spots for tourists to visit. People visit Pacific battle sites all the time. Midway, Okinawa (great beaches), etc etc, but no one visits Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Why? Because we know we did some fucked up shit to those people. Ho Chi Mein city probably gets more American toursists then those two cities combined.

 

But then again, the Asian tourist just likes to see sites and take pictures. It's a stereotype, but its an earned one.

 

Sometimes, when you talk, you surprise me

 

Brian,

 

Jingoism is an interesting topic...

-Marc

[Akula]

Many Japanese people visit the site to pay respects and honor the men that were killed by their country. Japanese vessels, even cargo vessels, that pass the monument "man the rails" and dip their colors. They know what happened was wrong, and they respect that.

[OSUGT]

Know i personally dont see it to be an issue with japanese people wanting to see the monument. If they start lighting off fireworks and having a party... then we have a serious problem. I mean after all, it wasnt the vistors who did it. Perhaps they want to see history up close and personal... to see how dumb the entire world was at the time. I would deffinatly go to a japanese monument. Sure you can read about the destruction and look at pictures... but to actully be there is somehting differnet. I wouldnt be proud of it, but at the same time... that was way before almost any of us.

 

I mean realy, there are people like my uncle Bob who would probably kick every Japanese persons ass if he had the chance because of Pearl harbor... shit he shuns anyone who still drives a Japanese car. But then there are people of the younger generation who are going to be the same way in the future about the middle east because of the USS Cole, 9/11, the British subway (i had family there at the time)... so sure, ill be the same way in the future... but about what happend in my time, not what happend before me.

 

 

 

Point well taken. In fact, if we were to have this conversation say 2 years ago or more, I would probably hold your viewpoint.

 

It's a hard thing to describe. When you visit Pearl Harbor, you can FEEL it. Does that make sense? I imagine it would be the same type of feeling visiting the Twin Towers site. I could feel the panic, the utter shock, the lives lost in the blink of an eye. (This was just in the museum) Then, the real experience begins.

 

I believe the US Navy runs the memorial, and as you board the tour boat, you are asked to remain quiet. Enlisted men and women take you out into the harbor. The trip includes passing "Battleship Row," and let me tell you, you can start to feel the emotions overtake you. Once you reach the "Arizona," its so moving, words have a hard time describing. Seeing the huge gun turret rising above the surface, watching the oil slicks that still exist from the Arizona's own oil, and finally, standing in the memorial and reading the names of those men that died...I was awestruck.

 

Suddenly, a 64 year old war doesnt seem so far away. Suddenly, all those stories my grandfather told me about the "Greatest Generation" made sense. I want to be a forgiving person. I want to be able to consider myself a "progressive" person. However, there are just certain places where I will NEVER feel comfortable because of my background. Pearl Harbor strikes me as one of those places where certain others should not feel comfortable.

 

I guess I put myself in the position of those sailors that I was standing above in the memorial. I wondered what the reaction would be if they knew that over half of the visitors walking over their violent final resting spot were descendents of those who put them there.

 

You have to admit, it makes you think!

 

Hey, Doc, I appreciate the response to the first post. I'm not going to say every Asian over there was Japanese. However, the majority were from Japan. It's amazing the number of Japanese tourists Hawaii attracts.

 

Late

[Science Abuse]

Alkua also brings up a good point. Another Japanese tendancy, aprt from fear of shame, is respect for ones enemy. Your enemy is a direct reflection of yourself. If you choose weak and easy enemies that cannot hope to fight you, then you yourself are weak. "You must be proud of your enemies, the successes of your enemies are also your successes." You can not like some one, yet still respect them.

 

to add to what eric said, another serendipitous aspect of the pearl harbor attack was that none of our aircraft carriers were at port, and we lost many of our battleships to air action, thus beginning the change of opinion in military circles (for the better) that the battleship had gone the way of the ironclad, and that this war, and those following would be won not by who had the biggest guns, but by who had the ability to project power over the furthest distance. (i.e., airpower)

 

this is one of my favorite subjects, btw. wwII, and specifically, the naval war in the pacific.

Mcarthur was a son of a bitch. Discuss.

[OSUGT]

Alkua also brings up a good point. Another Japanese tendancy, aprt from fear of shame, is respect for ones enemy. Your enemy is a direct reflection of yourself. If you choose weak and easy enemies that cannot hope to fight you, then you yourself are weak. "You must be proud of your enemies, the successes of your enemies are also your successes." You can not like some one, yet still respect them.

 

 

Mcarthur was a son of a bitch. Discuss.

 

I'm sure China and the Philippines might have a different take on "Japanese Respect" for enemies.

[Orion]

Mcarthur was a son of a bitch. Discuss.

 

true. next question?

[Orion]

I'm sure China and the Philippines might have a different take on "Japanese Respect" for enemies.

 

 

i agree with you there, but i dont think its for the same reasons...

 

the japanese invasion of china and the philippines was a combination of imperialist expansionism and a feeling of racial superiority. if you had the wherewithal to be able to speak to almost any japanese soldier or citizen back then, theyd have told you that the chinese and philipino's were second class citizens. barbaric and low bred. the japanese wanted nothing to do with america as an enemy. they knew that we were the only nation in the pacific who could provide a serious threat to their campaign. we were considered a backward country, but one to be respected and feared. once they made up their mind that we were going to eventually get involved anyways, they made preparations to deliver us a blow that we would not easily recover from (a plan that was at once brilliant and flawed) in the hopes that they would have been able to overcome the chinese and phillipines before we were able to recover enough to do anything about it.

 

cliffs notes: 1930's japanese are to chinese and phillippinos as pre-civil war whites are to africans living in america. no respect was deserved.

 

1930's japanese are to americans as cold war america was to cold war soviet union. a backwards country full of people not too much like you that you definately didnt want to drop gloves with, but wouldnt back down from.

 

<the preceeding is not only a much shortened version of what i really wanted to say, but also extremely generalized. if someone wants to get together and have a serious discussion about this, im game>

[Mojoe]

I lived in Hawaii for four years, and was in Japan for 12 months of that. Their are almost more Asians then Hawaiians in Hawaii. As for tourists, a very high percentage of them are Japanees. I don't know the specifics, but I saw it first hand and though I would try to add to the picture. Though I can't give a reason, I know when I was there the Japanees tourist that I talked to/ met in clubs almost always brought it up as something they had done or were going to do. I never asked why(was trying to get laid). I like the points made here though.

[Nitrousbird]

Today is also the Sevendust/Mudvayne/10 Years/Boba Flex concert....I'll be leaving for it shortly.

[Nitrousbird]

Marc shut up you're just out of highschool and should know something like that.. I'm old. Joe, where at? Just might have to go..

Lifestyle Communities Pavalian. We left early as Mudvayne wasn't getting it done all that well.

[smokin5s]

damn, I forgot about that concert!