Never buying TYSON chicken again!

[fusion]

I think the biggest misunderstanding here is the fact that the 9/11 event was blamed on "muslims" instead of "al'quaeda"

as I've said, you can't blame all christians for the actions of the KKK...

Some muslims ARE americans...

[Fonzie]

Yes they did. They even declared war on us. They never made landfall, but they certainly sunk ships off our east coast within view of beaches. They also had several covert entries into the US.

And let's not forget the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor during the same World War.

I'm glad you brought the Japanese up. For all those who claim how badly we're treating our muslim population since the attacks.....I vaguely recall "camps" that were set up for all Japanese Americans to be herded into during WWII, because while at war, we didn't know which ones we could trust, and which had malicious intentions toward our country. Sound familiar?? I don't recall hearing anything like this being set up since 9/11 for our Muslim population. I'd say they're being treated MUCH better than previous immigrants have been

I live within 45 minutes of the biggest mosque in NW Ohio, possibly the whole state, and aside from some petty vandalism & mild threats/jabbering.....They've been pretty much left alone. They've certainly not been bombed or attacked as part of a vigilante effort. I think we Americans have been VERY tolerant towards them & respecting their religious beliefs

The Muslims however never have.

A muslim extremist that wanted western interference out of the middle east did and used a group of easily influenced young muslim men to do it.

Fixed that quote for you Jeremi

I think it's pretty obvious I'm not changing anybody's mind, and you're not changing mine......So I say at this point, unless someone posted something while I was typing this that I have a strong reaction to ....... we just respectfully agree to disagree on this subject:cheers:

[Fonzie]

I think the biggest misunderstanding here is the fact that the 9/11 event was blamed on "muslims" instead of "al'quaeda"

as I've said, you can't blame all christians for the actions of the KKK...

Some muslims ARE americans...

Very true Duane.......But if some KKK members went over to the Middle East & bombed & killed thousands of Muslims.....Do you think they would specifically come after the KKK, or would their retaliation & hate be against all Christians in general?

Again......Agree to disagree

[fusion]

Agreeing to disagree is fine and is often the best course. I'll just have to remain confused as to why someone would use the same logic for their hate as the people they hate.

[The King]

Or Hitler. He was German right? ...

No...he wasn't

[fusion]

No...he wasn't

Yeah I know he was born in Austria that wasn't the point.

[Disclaimer]

Agreeing to disagree is fine and is often the best course. I'll just have to remain confused as to why someone would use the same logic for their hate as the people they hate.

Isn't that the same logic as: "If you can't beat them, join them"?

I don't want this thread to just up and die... c'mon, more debating!!

[KruelHouse]

I live within 45 minutes of the biggest mosque in NW Ohio, possibly the whole state, and aside from some petty vandalism & mild threats/jabbering.....They've been pretty much left alone. They've certainly not been bombed or attacked as part of a vigilante effort. I think we Americans have been VERY tolerant towards them & respecting their religious beliefs

Interesting... Now by the same token, have any of the individuals belonging to this Mosque openly plotted or carried out any malicious, or petty acts against the people of the greater community?

And if they haven't, yet they've endured petty vandalism, threats and jabbering... I'd say that they've been pretty tolerant of the individuals in their NW Ohio community.

I think that to agree to disagree may be a good idea on the front that people will not change their views overnight (especially in a netForum). As the saying goes: "We're all just one EXPERIENCE away from a breakthrough." Perhaps it will take a positive experience or two with the culture that you loathe for you to embrace them.

However, I also agree with JRMii in that I don't want this thread to die because it's certainly been eye-opening and educational. I actually got a pretty good History lesson out of it. I believe that as long as we can keep it cordial, and refrain from namecalling and other belligerent insults; this is nothing more than "healthy conversation."

Peace and carry-on.

[Lost]

I guess the union members who are unhappy will do a better job picking their union leaders next time.

But seriously, This is what the United States is based on.....Religious freedom. The Pilgrims came here to practice their religion. I have no problem with anyone doing that.....but in the same voice, respect my choice of religion by not detracting from my way of celebration.

[magley64]

Very true Duane.......But if some KKK members went over to the Middle East & bombed & killed thousands of Muslims.....Do you think they would specifically come after the KKK, or would their retaliation & hate be against all Christians in general?

Again......Agree to disagree

No, they'd blame the "americans"...but just because they would generalize, and form prejuduces, doesn't mean that we should, or that it's the right thing to do...

I understood your comments about 9/11, not knowing if it was over, having your family come to you for answers, feeling afraid...

now picture yourself as a muslim man, still american, still have your wife and family looking to you for answers, not knowing if it was over or not...they were going through the same thing...but now because they subscribe to the same religion as the terrorists, people look at them as if they are responsible, or somehow connected...

can you put yourself in their shoes for a second and see how nothing changes? the only thing that changes is the name of your god that you pray to at night...you have the same responsibilities, the same fears, the same hopes for your children...

I hope you at least try to look at it from another perspective, even if I'm not changing your mind, maybe I can help you open it a tiny bit...

[Fonzie]

Interesting... Now by the same token, have any of the individuals belonging to this Mosque openly plotted or carried out any malicious, or petty acts against the people of the greater community?

And if they haven't, yet they've endured petty vandalism, threats and jabbering... I'd say that they've been pretty tolerant of the individuals in their NW Ohio community.

Good point Kruel.....But in response I'd say they're the one's who chose to come over here & live. If they don't feel comfortable/safe/welcome....They're always free to leave. Since they don't.....I've gotta assume they must like it here overall & feel it's better than their home country

SamBusa used to hang on my XX board with me, & even went on some rides with the group, stayed in their homes, etc. Him & one of the other guys got into it recently......Sam told everybody off & trashed/badmouthed our bike out of anger, and some of them came down pretty hard on him. He was accepted on our board, even though they don't particularly care for 'Busa's, because he was with me & he'd always been cool & tried to blend in. Now that there was a skirmish & he doesn't like it over there anymore, he refuses to go back.

When I hang on his 'Busa board, I always act as if I'm a guest in someone else's home. Same thing......They've always been cordial to me...a few Honda comments here & there as to be expected, but overall, hospitable. However, I'm always cognizant of the fact I'm in their territory, and all that can change in the blink of an eye. I don't go onto their board expecting them to change it into a Honda board or accommodate me or my Honda beliefs in any special way, & I'm also fully aware that some of them probably don't like me just because I have a Honda, and are only tolerating me because I'm friends with Sam. The minute I don't feel comfortable over there....I'm leaving....Not expecting them to change their place on my behalf

now picture yourself as a muslim man, still american, still have your wife and family looking to you for answers, not knowing if it was over or not...they were going through the same thing...but now because they subscribe to the same religion as the terrorists, people look at them as if they are responsible, or somehow connected...

can you put yourself in their shoes for a second and see how nothing changes? the only thing that changes is the name of your god that you pray to at night...you have the same responsibilities, the same fears, the same hopes for your children...

I hope you at least try to look at it from another perspective, even if I'm not changing your mind, maybe I can help you open it a tiny bit...

I'll admit.......That would be scary as well. I still think we've learned from our past though, and treat them FAR better than we did our Japanese immigrants 70 years ago during WWII

[fusion]

Well you're missing a point. If they are citizens here Muslim or not it's their country too.

Or maybe we can take your view on things to the level some may prefer and say if you aren't of English decent GTFO.

[John]

if you arent of native american descent GTFO.

[fusion]

if you arent of native american descent GTFO.

Yeah we already tried that one but they seem alright with us slaughtering natives for what they want.

Yes, I know that, and WE TOOK IT from them. So I don't care that the indians were here 1st, we own it now. Also, they came here and set-up shop and over time we started to develop laws, government, etc. What matters is that those foreigners that found this nation aren't around anymore. The people who were BORN here is what matters.

I like how when you go to other countries they have English on the shampoo bottle to accomodate me. Wait...they don't. But we'll cover everything in the stores in spanish here in the US of fucking A.

[magley64]

Yeah we already tried that one but they seem alright with us slaughtering natives for what they want.

:confused:

the point is that we are all immigrants...

my great grandmother on my mothers side was a first year immigrant...

my great grandfather on my mothers side descended from before the revolutionary war...

I do agree that people should learn the most prodominant language of the country they reside....that just makes good sense for communication sake...

many of the "muslims" we're discussing were born here, too...

this basically just boils down to racism...

[fusion]

:confused:

the point is that we are all immigrants...

my great grandmother on my mothers side was a first year immigrant...

my great grandfather on my mothers side descended from before the revolutionary war...

I do agree that people should learn the most prodominant language of the country they reside....that just makes good sense for communication sake...

many of the "muslims" we're discussing were born here, too...

this basically just boils down to racism...

I was trying to avoid calling it that, but I agree and that was one of my first thoughts.

Most foreigners do learn our language either before coming here or while here. A lot of other countries teach English as a second language in their schools since it's consider the international language for business.

[magley64]

it's just unfair to judge people because they resemble the people you see on the news commiting crimes...

I used to have a big problem with racism, but i've overcome alot of it just by interacting with diverse people...

I had no experience with hindu's, I thought they were all snake charmers.. Then when I was working for philips, my cube-mate was a hindu named Sriram Rajagopal. Coolest guy you could ever meet. I called him Sri, (shree) since it was easier...

I'd always crack jokes on him, and he'd burn me back, it was a great time...Especially when i'd go to quiznos for lunch, and bring back a large prime rib & peppercorn, I'd always offer him half (hindu's don't eat beef) and he'd chuckle and say no...

All I'm saying is don't think I'm trying to insult you or call you a bad guy or anything along those lines, I used to have my own racial issues (still do have some), but i don't think it's a good use of energy...that's all

[Fonzie]

this basically just boils down to racism...

I was trying to avoid calling it that, but I agree and that was one of my first thoughts.

And on that note......I'm out

You know.....I tried to end this amicably before it got to this point, but some expressed opinions of wanting to further the conversation as they thought it was educational/good debate/history lesson, & was remaining civil 'til this point. We've now crossed that line.....Or at least you have towards me.

I don't care what color, nationality, or religion you are.......If you show agression/hatred toward me & mine in the US.....I don't like you, where you come from, what you stand for/represent/believe in, etc. That goes for a certain group of white, blonde hair/blue eyed protestant Americans who probably don't like me 'cause I'm darker skinned/haired & Catholic.....or if you're from another country trying to turn the US into a carbon copy of your homeland

The only reason I continued it today was that several people quoted me, asking for a response.

[cattmouch33]

:confused:

the point is that we are all immigrants...

my great grandmother on my mothers side was a first year immigrant...

my great grandfather on my mothers side descended from before the revolutionary war...

Actually I was born here I don't know about you but I didn't immigrate to the U.S. Yes Our great grandparents might have been but once you are born in the country you are a citizen not an immigrant.

[magley64]

And on that note......I'm out

You know.....I tried to end this amicably before it got to this point, but some expressed opinions of wanting to further the conversation as they thought it was educational/good debate/history lesson, & was remaining civil 'til this point. We've now crossed that line.....Or at least you have towards me.

exactly the response I was NOT trying to illicit, I didn't want you to take that the wrong way, which is why i hurried up and wrote my next entry...

I don't have any issues with you personally, I think you're a hell of a guy...

I wasn't trying to insult you, just offering some constructive criticism/parralels to that particular train of thought...

sorry if it came off as a personal attack.

[NinjaNick]

Easy way to sum up the thread:

Don't get rid of an American holiday and replace it with a foreign one. If you want to have it as a holiday at the work place just ADD it. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT, ditch a national holiday for it.

[magley64]

Easy way to sum up the thread:

Don't get rid of an American holiday and replace it with a foreign one. If you want to have it as a holiday at the work place just ADD it. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT, ditch a national holiday for it.

if you want to sum it up that way, then we can blame those greedy business men who operate that particular chicken plant for only allowing 8 holidays in the labor union contract...

of the 8 they could have dropped, I think they picked the least "insulting"...honestly

[Disclaimer]

C'mon Fonz... don't tuck and run, you know us better than that - I'm sure Mags and Fusion didn't mean it how you took it. It just comes off bad over the internet because you can't read into the non-verbal cues, like tone, mood and inflection.

[fusion]

if you want to sum it up that way, then we can blame those greedy business men who operate that particular chicken plant for only allowing 8 holidays in the labor union contract...

of the 8 they could have dropped, I think they picked the least "insulting"...honestly

To add to that, the Somalis I don't think were the ones who chose which one to go. It sounds like they just requested it as a holiday and this was the solution that was offered.

[fusion]

And on that note......I'm out

You know.....I tried to end this amicably before it got to this point, but some expressed opinions of wanting to further the conversation as they thought it was educational/good debate/history lesson, & was remaining civil 'til this point. We've now crossed that line.....Or at least you have towards me.

I don't care what color, nationality, or religion you are.......If you show agression/hatred toward me & mine in the US.....I don't like you, where you come from, what you stand for/represent/believe in, etc. That goes for a certain group of white, blonde hair/blue eyed protestant Americans who probably don't like me 'cause I'm darker skinned/haired & Catholic.....or if you're from another country trying to turn the US into a carbon copy of your homeland

The only reason I continued it today was that several people quoted me, asking for a response.

Sorry Fonz wasn't meant as a personal attack. It's just close to the same type of reasoning and thinking racists do use.

You judged millions on the acts of a few.

That would be like declaring all Catholics child molesters or are accepting of the act. Especially since it was leadership committing these acts and covering them up all the way through the chain. Over 5000+ complaints just in the US and billions in settlements and there are probably many more that never made it to the light of day.