President's Veto of the War Spending Bill

[cptn janks]

that point i will give you. they most certainly can be used as a method of delivery. although they can also be used to blow giant holes in the ground too, without any chemical or biological weapons along for the ride.

 

so we got the delivery system. now where are these secret underground chem labs?

 

just having the artillery is not proof enough that there is a new chemical weapon program going on. especially not when the delivery system has another use... like blowing giant holes in the ground.

[Jeffrey]

You still don't get it, I don't care what article you bring up, what you think may be the truth about what is going on over there, I won't believe a word of it over what someone WHO HAS ACTUALLY BEEN THERE has to say. I see people like you on every board I go to and you all spout the same non-sense. Show me something that supports your theory from someone who has actually been there and expierienced it first hand and I will take your claims seriously. Until then you are in the same boat as every other nut job anti-war activist, conspiracy theorist, and Micheal Moore, what you say holds no water.

[Scotty2Hotty]

<<<< Got pictures here :D EVIDENCE AWWWWWWWWW AWWWWWWWW

[cptn janks]

You still don't get it, I don't care what article you bring up, what you think may be the truth about what is going on over there, I won't believe a word of it over what someone WHO HAS ACTUALLY BEEN THERE has to say. I see people like you on every board I go to and you all spout the same non-sense. Show me something that supports your theory from someone who has actually been there and expierienced it first hand and I will take your claims seriously.

 

wait a sec... are you saying the CIA has never been to iraq?

 

seriously?

 

Until then you are in the same boat as every other nut job anti-war activist, conspiracy theorist, and Micheal Moore, what you say holds no water.

 

more ad hominem.

 

don't you know that ad hominem is a fallacious argument?

[Scotty2Hotty]

CIA = Spooks :eek:

[Jeffrey]

Who said I was arguing? Don't you have to be arguing to make a fallacious argument? I am telling you that I don't care about your articles and other media "reporting".

 

I am quite certain the CIA has been in Iraq, but I don't expect you to know the actual truth to why, how, when, where, what, they were doing there, nor anyone else on this board. Like I told you, people like yourself on every board make me laugh because until you are there seeing it for yourself, everything you bring the table is pure skepticism.

[Scotty2Hotty]

I am quite certain the CIA has been in Iraq, but I don't expect you to know the actual truth to why, how, when, where, what, they were doing there, nor anyone else on this board.

I've had a clue as to their presence. I'll say no more.

[Jeffrey]

Why is this Scott? Ohh yeah you have been there!!! In the not so distant future I will be going over as well.

[cptn janks]

they make reports after they go there. sometimes these reports get released to the public. if you dont want to read the report thats fine. but that doesnt change the facts that are contained within it. the fact still remains that the CIA says that there were NO new chem labs in iraq. not that there was not an ounce of chemical weapons there, but that there was NO NEW PROGRAM (which was the basis for going into war in the first place)

 

if you dont want to listen to them, then i dont know what else to say.

 

 

as for the ad hominem, im just saying, name calling does not make your points any stronger.

 

"Serious readers for centuries are alert to recognize that ad hominem attacks generally mask an inability to counter an argument on logical or evidentiary grounds."

[Scotty2Hotty]

There were many things that went on, that I'll never say I saw, heard of nada. Somethings are kept secret to keep lives safe and people alive over there. Being a civilian you'll never know the whole truth, just accept that. America wants answers, but some shit they ain't getting because of our stupid ass media. One slight thing from good ol CNN, NBC etc.. could kill many people.

[cptn janks]

so if they've discovered that saddam DID have a new WMD program, then how does the government benefit from keeping it a secret? how does that help save lives?

 

you'd think that the administration would be waving it in front of everyone saying "see? i told you so".

[HotCarl]

There were many things that went on, that I'll never say I saw, heard of nada. Somethings are kept secret to keep lives safe and people alive over there. Being a civilian you'll never know the whole truth, just accept that. America wants answers, but some shit they ain't getting because of our stupid ass media. One slight thing from good ol CNN, NBC etc.. could kill many people.

 

Just civilian's? unless your the President of the United States you won't know that truth. Even after that, I'm a firm believer not even he know's the whole truth. Ignorance is bliss. Soldier or civilian, we're all lied to in the end. Doesn't matter what you saw and didn't see, it's ongoing.

 

so if they've discovered that saddam DID have a new WMD program, then how does the government benefit from keeping it a secret? how does that help save lives?

 

you'd think that the administration would be waving it in front of everyone saying "see? i told you so".

 

I tried to make this point in the last page. having proof of ANY sort of WMD would just help the President's case. I dont care if it's stockpile or not, it would prove their point therefore giving them a better coffin to stand on when we preach to the world how good we are.

[Jeffrey]

they make reports after they go there. sometimes these reports get released to the public. if you dont want to read the report thats fine. but that doesnt change the facts that are contained within it. the fact still remains that the CIA says that there were NO new chem labs in iraq. not that there was not an ounce of chemical weapons there, but that there was NO NEW PROGRAM (which was the basis for going into war in the first place)

 

if you dont want to listen to them, then i dont know what else to say.

 

 

as for the ad hominem, im just saying, name calling does not make your points any stronger.

 

"Serious readers for centuries are alert to recognize that ad hominem attacks generally mask an inability to counter an argument on logical or evidentiary grounds."

 

CIA reports, I don't really care to read them, why? Because you are never going to get the whole story, like Scott said things are not going to be made privy to everyone to protect lives, families, and national security, so why bother reading a watered down report that is not going to give you the whole story. That and unless you get them from the CIA whose to say that is wasn't "touched up" to say what would benefit someones own agenda. I won't believe anything about this war I read off the internet simply because everyone is so biased on their opinion about it I don't care to sift through the bullshit.

 

As far as ad hominem goes I guess you could say I have no argument, because I try not to read the crap that is out there about the war, and the millions of different reasons that people think we are over there. It is all skepticism as far as I am concerned. Our government had a reason they wanted to go into Iraq. Will we know the real reason? Probably not, but the WMD's was the basis that we were told. Is that the real reason we went? Maybe? Maybe not? I don't know, you don't know, but that was the reason we got. I would like to think that Congress would not send us to war if there was not a good reason too. That's right I said Congress, because our President does not the have power to declare war without Congress. Say that Bush lied to them all you want but they were able to see the same intelligence that the President saw and they felt the need to take Sadaam out as well, but good luck getting them to admit that now that the media has turned the country on President Bush and "his" war. Mismanaged or not Congress is as much to blame as President Bush.

 

Everyone has theories about what is going on over there, and thats just it theories.

[cptn janks]

I would like to think that Congress would not send us to war if there was not a good reason too. That's right I said Congress, because our President does not the have power to declare war without Congress.

 

really? congress has to declare war? wow. i didnt know that.

 

 

war has not been declared in iraq. only an "authorization to use force".

 

in fact, the united states has not declared a state of war to exist between itself and another country since world war two.

 

Our government had a reason they wanted to go into Iraq. Will we know the real reason? Probably not, but the WMD's was the basis that we were told.

 

and thats a good enough reason for you?

[Scotty2Hotty]

I guess if everything was that simple, everyone would be happy, the Iraq deal would be over, and we could get on with life. Not sure of the REASONS why some things are kept under wraps, they just are. I don't know why, but I have a clue. Granted I don't know everything either, BUT, I know a bit more than the average person watching TV, reading etc.. I've seen things again first hand. It's all kinda crazy if you ask me, and I forget more and more as the days go by. One way or another, we should be there TO A POINT. And that point needs to come here soon, because honestly the Iraqi government/people are solely relying on us WAY TOO MUCH. I really don't care if President Bush supposedly lied or not, I'm still behind him 100% through thick and thin. I think he's done a hell of a job being put in the situations he did. Nobody's perfect, but never the less I think he's done good. We had and have good reasons and intentions being there. This wasn't going to be a walk in the park, the Gulf War was a joke IMO. That was wham bam thank you ma'am, and go home. Of course with over 450,000 boots on the ground, not to mention the air covered with bombers and fighters, that shit was too easy. This time we did the hard shit, cleaning up house to house, bridge by bridge, city by city. So it got hot and heavy, not to mention a little on the dirty side. I was never in WW2 or Viet Nam, but I can say this is a whole new ball game. We're facing something almost completely new. Back in the day uniforms were worn, but not anymore. Hard to tell the difference between good and bad anymore. Never the less we went in there initially and kicked ass, then the game changed over to their realm not ours. They fight dirty, but we maintain our cleanliness. Geneva Convention blah blah, fuck that shit, it's time to take the white gloves off and get dirty for the rest of the time we're there.

[Scotty2Hotty]

This is where I conducted my politics and foreign relations

http://a498.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/01141/79/48/1141718497_l.jpg

[HotCarl]

CIA reports, I don't really care to read them, why? Because you are never going to get the whole story, like Scott said things are not going to be made privy to everyone to protect lives, families, and national security, so why bother reading a watered down report that is not going to give you the whole story. That and unless you get them from the CIA whose to say that is wasn't "touched up" to say what would benefit someones own agenda. I won't believe anything about this war I read off the internet simply because everyone is so biased on their opinion about it I don't care to sift through the bullshit.

 

And your opinion isn't one of those biased opinion's you speak so lowly about? That's the whole point of an intelligent argument, state your case, back it up with information and stand for what you think to be true. It's easy to be comfortable with a certain viewpoint when you surround yourself with people who think the EXACT same way isn't it?

 

Our government had a reason they wanted to go into Iraq. Will we know the real reason? Probably not, but the WMD's was the basis that we were told. Is that the real reason we went? Maybe? Maybe not? I don't know, you don't know, but that was the reason we got.

 

And your actually OK with this?!?!?!? Don't you at least want to know why they're putting your a$$ in the line of fire and not their own? So your ok with being fed a line of BS and just sitting back thinking "im sure they know whats best for me, because I sure don't" You dont honestly think that way do you?

[Scotty2Hotty]

Verse from the Qa'ran

"For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced: for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah and there was peace."

Red, White and motherfucking Blue baby. :grin2:

[Jeffrey]

Being in the military I am not paid to think, is this the best for me? I am paid to think, ok they gave me a job and now I got to do it the best to my ability. I do know what is best for me, but when I signed the dotted line I no longer had the ability to decide that for myself. I am sure it is hard for civillians to understand but that is what the military is, it is a tool to be used how the leaders of this country seem fit. That is the cold hard truth about the military. The normal everyday freedoms that everyone else has and enjoys do not apply to us. Like Scott I support President Bush, given what he had gone through as a President was alot and he is doing the best that he can.

 

I never said I was having an argument, if I were I would be throwing facts out there, but the thing is I don't believe anyone (but Scott and other OIF veterans) have any facts about this subject to argue about. Everything is pure skepticism because we do not know the truth because we are not supposed to know the truth. Some people just have to learn that you can't know everything and you are safer because of that.

[Tractor]

I like how everyone that opposes the bush admin claim that he lied about there being WMD's in iraq or whatever the lies are supposed to be. Funny that no one remembers the 13 years after the first gulf war. Saddam seemed to try pretty hard to defy the UN and in the last 5 years or so of that time he kept letting the weapons inspectors get pretty close to things and then would decide to kick them out of the country. Almost teasing us all. All the major world powers agreed that saddam had weapons or at least would have bet on it and that was the intelligence that the US used to decide to go into Iraq. Who knows if the intelligence was true. The point is if it was false it had many more world leaders than just President Bush fooled at the time. Please try to remember the news from back then and all the reports back and forth about saddam kicking out inspectors before making unproven claims that bush lied. Thats just liberal crap and not worthy of real debate.

 

Evan

[sol740]

I like how everyone that opposes the bush admin claim that he lied about there being WMD's in iraq or whatever the lies are supposed to be. Funny that no one remembers the 13 years after the first gulf war. Saddam seemed to try pretty hard to defy the UN and in the last 5 years or so of that time he kept letting the weapons inspectors get pretty close to things and then would decide to kick them out of the country. Almost teasing us all. All the major world powers agreed that saddam had weapons or at least would have bet on it and that was the intelligence that the US used to decide to go into Iraq. Who knows if the intelligence was true. The point is if it was false it had many more world leaders than just President Bush fooled at the time. Please try to remember the news from back then and all the reports back and forth about saddam kicking out inspectors before making unproven claims that bush lied. Thats just liberal crap and not worthy of real debate.

 

So he teased us ? So that means we should invade under the guise of "terrorism". Iran is by far (then and now) the bigger threat to the US. Iraq has only weakened since the first time we went over there, due to the heavy embargos we placed upon them. Saddam was denying the U.N. to look like a badass to the other countries surrounding him. Saddam was a media hero to many in the middle eastern region because he stood up to the MIGHTY USA. Though we all know he was nothing more than a knat in our face. An annoyance, not a threat. We toppled his regime in a matter of weeks. He was an asshole, not a terrorist. We should have focused our military power on real terrorist hot-beds. Unfortunetley since we've invaded, thats what Iraq has become. Thats all here and there though, and all this bickering matters very little now. What matters now is how we make our exodus as cleanly as possible. Though it looks a little bleak right now.