bailout number 3? good read.

[natedogg624]

good read. not from cnn or anything like that, although some well put out ideas. quoted from a educated guy on another forum:

Well, two bailout plans later and we are still bleeding. Hmm, who would have thought that? We have lawyers in Washington scratching their head wondering why money can't fix things. Money always fixes things, right? Not so much.

Why are we calling them 'bailout' plans? Who or what are we bailing out? Are we bailing out a sour economy in hopes the money stimulates a heartbeat? Are we bailing out corporations that are failing? It's a twist on words, but It's never really been defined. I guess it could be said we are bailing out large corporations in hopes that they don't fail, thus bringing the economy further down the spiral. The problem with either of these idea's is the lack of understanding at what really drives the economy.

The IRS is one of the largest revenue generators in the world. 46.5% of it's revenue comes from the individual tax payer. Only 15.4% comes from corporations. Who really drives the economy? Yes, that's right, the tax payers. (okay, I could provide more supporting evidence here, but let's face it, would you really read it?)

Now let's reflect back on the government bailouts. First we have the $80B AIG bailout. How well has that worked? They were just criticized for lavish outings on tax payer money. Congressman Hoekstra put it best when he say's it's business as usual at AIG. Business as usual is what got them in trouble in the first place. Now they have the audacity to approach us (taxpayers) for additional funds. Raise your hand if you want to hand them more of YOUR money.

Second, we have the $850B financial bailout. Did you say $850B? Yes I know, all you ever hear is $700B. That is because the supporters of the bailout had to spend an additional $150B to 'buy' approval. This is earmark funds to senators and representatives who would never get such funding under 'normal' circumstances. I guess now is the best time to exploit the US taxpayer. I've read all 400+ pages of this plan and thought I was reading a comic book.

Anyways, how well has this bailout worked? Not so good. Actually, so bad they are discussing another one. One more point here. The bailout was to give banks money to lend. Let me ask you, do you want a loan right now? Do you want ANOTHER monthly debt obligation? Corporate American does not want loans right now because they don't have any business to support it. Maybe the banks should lend to the automakers.

Third, the new $28B automotive bailout. At first I thought this was a joke only to realize the government was actually serious. GM put a rather disturbing full page ad in USA Today on 11/17/08. Here is why GM believe they NEED the bailout:

1. 2.95 Million people would lose a job. Let's clarify that, 2.95 million UNION jobs will be lost. Is that all that bad?

2. $21.1 Billion in social security deposits would disappear. They even say SS relies on GM's deposits in order to survive. Um, SS is going bankrupt REGARDLESS of what happens to GM.

3. $24.7 Billion in income tax will be lost. Well, I say we cut our losses now instead of throwing another $28B at the problem.

4. $12 Billion in R & D will never be realized. Have you EVER compared an American car vs. an Import? I think it's been a LONG time since R & D has EVER been realized. Nice try though.

5. 2 Million American's will go without healthcare. Not with Obama.

6. The development of Biofuel, Electric and Hydrogen technologies will stall. They state: Our energy independence is in our own backyard, and we're (GM) leading the way. LOL. First, who made us dependent on oil? Second, who stalled alternative fuels for the past 20 years?

7. 1 in 10 jobs in the US rely on the automotive industry. Let's rephrase this. 9 out of 10 people work someplace other than automotive. Sounds better.

Let's look at Toyota (or Nissan, whatever). They are not doing too bad. They employ MANY American's and assemble a lot of their auto's here. They have always operated efficiently and always seem to be one step ahead of their American counterparts. Do you expect them to sit back and watch the government bailout their competitor? All we are doing with the automakers (and AIG) is rewarding awful management. GM/Ford SHOULD file bankruptcy. At the rate they are burning through cash, there is no amount of money that is going to help them. All it is doing is BUYING more time until reality sinks in. What is that reality? US Automakers were so profitable, they became fat. Laborers demanding high wages and benefits, which the UNION got them. Now, when it's time for the stronger to survive, they are running to mom and dad looking for more money. It's comical at best.

So, what is the solution? I believe the government should bailout the US Taxpayer. It hurts to say that since much of the issue are these people who bought WAY MORE house than they could afford, thus bankrupting themselves and taking the rest of us down with them. Regardless, we should be bailed out.

How? Well, the US Govt should issue a $15 Trillion bailout to ALL taxpayers who's AGI is under $2 Million. Based on 2006 information, that equates to approximately $111,500 per tax payer (double if your married). That would be a great check to get in the mail wouldn't it? I know, $15 Trillion seems like a lot doesn't it? However, these bailouts will be approaching a couple trillion soon. Besides, look how much money we've spent on Iraq or other stupid shit. It's time we invest in AMERICANS. Anyways, how does this help?

First, it wouldn't be a $15 Trillion bailout plan for very long. The FIRST thing Uncle Sam is going to do is take back 30% in the form of income taxes. That gives approximately $4.5 Trillion right back into the IRS. For the taxpayer, that knocks the refund down to $80,500. What's the first place the taxpayer is going to put that money? Yes, in a bank. That's roughly $11 Trillion being deposited into the banks. What's the second thing the taxpayer is going to do? Pay off debt. How many foreclosures do you think would stop? A lot. Banks would have $11 Trillion plus the monies coming in from homeowners to catch up their mortgage payment or pay off some other debt or credit cards. Now the banks will be flush with cash. After that, and if there is money left, some will invest, thus boosting the stock market. Some will spend randomly, thus increasing retail sales, which increases sales tax that the states collect (yes, even the states benefit). I'm sure some will buy new cars, but maybe not enough to save GM or Ford. Besides, they'll most likely buy imports.

Now, obviously I'm leaving out a ton of details. First, the return should be based on AGI, meaning somebody who earns $50,000 should receive less than somebody earning $100,000. I figured ALL of that into my average return. The most important detail is control. Given the size, these are refunds that should be confirmed IN PERSON and with finger prints. That would take a few months to get the money into the economy. There are additional controls.

There are also some downsides, such as selling $15 Trillion in US Treasuries. That could boost interest rates as well as inflation.

The bottom line is this. How much do you think consumer confidence would increase if they had such a return to take care of their personal financial issues? We would have 138 million happy people. We would have an economy FLUSH with cash. However, the reality is that Uncle Same does not trust the US Taxpayer, which is sad since they depend on us. Ask yourself, how have you benefited from the AIG bailout? How have you benefited from the financial bailout? How will you benefit from the automotive bailout? Will these bailouts boost your confidence and wiliness to spend? Will these bailouts solve your financial problems?

Whose problems do these bailouts solve? They are solving NOTHING.

[zerocrash]

aww hell..

[jeremygsxr]

I've been saying the same thing since first talks of bailout #1.

[fusion]

a) who hasn't been saying that about the automakers. Even congress shot them down and the auto execs had to go and hope for a better response from the House.

b) 15 Trillion bailout to tax payers is an insanely stupid idea. Let's try...zero bailout for anyone and let the market work it's self out. Suffer bitches. No one learns their lesson if they get shoveled out of their messes by someone else everytime.

[jeremygsxr]

I'm just saying if they're going to hand out money, hand it to the tax payers. Many of us are not good with money, so it would be back in the economy in no time.

[fusion]

Except when it comes to the mortgage crisis and the current state the tax payer in general is the reason we are in this position to begin with. Give the average idiot that much cash and we'll get a quick run up and an even worse economy than now to follow.

[jeremygsxr]

ehh your probably right. fuckit, no soup for anyone!

[natedogg624]

delete me

[natedogg624]

[natedogg624]

to go with what we would do with that 15T... i lol'd

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=24406

[e-flores]

b) 15 Trillion bailout to tax payers is an insanely stupid idea. Let's try...zero bailout for anyone and let the market work it's self out. Suffer bitches. No one learns their lesson if they get shoveled out of their messes by someone else everytime.

i have been saying this forever!!! there should be no reason i should be picking up the slack for anyone else in this country and there should be no reason someone else should be picking up mine(if that were the case). welcome to America the land of free enterprise, and i hate to say it but free enterprise does come with risk, if it didnt it wouldnt be free enterprise!!!

[Disclaimer]

Where is this $15 Trillion coming from again? It's BILLIONs, not TRILLIONS.

And the number is $800-ish.

[fusion]

Where is this $15 Trillion coming from again? It's BILLIONs, not TRILLIONS.

And the number is $800-ish.

The poster Nate is quoting says trillion.

"How? Well, the US Govt should issue a $15 Trillion bailout to ALL taxpayers who's AGI is under $2 Million."

[natedogg624]

it was rhetoric.

[Disclaimer]

The can of worms is open now... we've already accepted the bailout.

Since the majority of my parents and my brothers income comes from the US auto industry, I'm a little biased saying I'd like to see US auto makers get this "bridge loan" until 2010 when the UAW takes over.

If NO ONE got a bailout, it would be a different story... but when you give $80B to companies like AIG and they take extravagant business trips than have the audacity to come back and ask for more without talk about capping executive salaries... I mean, the people in the 'financial sector' are predominantly white collar. While the auto workers are mostly blue collar.

Not to say the US auto execs don't have their faults either (like taking the corporate jets to DC to beg for money), but the jobs we're talking about here are regular folks, not white collar big shots. And, again, this money (at least in GMs case from what I've read) is a bridge loan to get the companies to 2010, so the money would be paid back (presumably with interest, I haven't verified this).

[fusion]

The UAW needs to go away.

[Disclaimer]

Someone on my other forum posted this graphic. I got a chuckle out of it.

[kawi kid]

^^^

[f4isvt]

I just wonder at what point does someone say "fuck it, I am not bailing you out" At what point does it stop. Wall street, housing, banks, auto when do we finally realize that nothing sells when no one has money so we get 15 million to bail out auto when no one is buying cars. My head hurts now.

[kawi kid]

At what point does it stop.

exactly

[ReconRat]

I don't think we should reward failure. That is all.

[The King]

The can of worms is open now... we've already accepted the bailout.

Since the majority of my parents and my brothers income comes from the US auto industry, I'm a little biased saying I'd like to see US auto makers get this "bridge loan" until 2010 when the UAW takes over.

If NO ONE got a bailout, it would be a different story... but when you give $80B to companies like AIG and they take extravagant business trips than have the audacity to come back and ask for more without talk about capping executive salaries... I mean, the people in the 'financial sector' are predominantly white collar. While the auto workers are mostly blue collar.

Not to say the US auto execs don't have their faults either (like taking the corporate jets to DC to beg for money), but the jobs we're talking about here are regular folks, not white collar big shots. And, again, this money (at least in GMs case from what I've read) is a bridge loan to get the companies to 2010, so the money would be paid back (presumably with interest, I haven't verified this).

This term "bailout" is iresponsible and is a tool being used by Republicans. This IS A LOAN.

The failure of the auto industry will be the final straw in this country descending into a full depression.

I can't believe anyone could possibly think it is in our best interest to let 2 million people lose their jobs....and NO, they are not all union jobs.

The ramifications of these people being out of work will force many of us in completely unrelated industries to lose our jobs..

[Disclaimer]

Once the US loses manufacturing... it's gone forever. All we'll be able to make is photomasks for chip dies after this.

It'll be a sorry state when we have to purchase tanks from China because we don't have any tool and die makers, or any skilled tradesmen around anymore.

[Dweezel]

Seriously I just love how everyone thinks American cars are junk. Thats pretty much the standard, default response anymore. MAYBE if you all would climb your happy fuckin ass into an American built car and actually look at it instead of saying 'my uncle had a Celebrity in 1987 and it was junk I'm not even gonna look at them' and actually haul your happy ass out to a GM, Ford, or DCM dealer and LOOK for youselves you'd see that their actually exceptionally nice cars. I travel allot for work and I've been in more rental cars than just about anyone on this board. I've rented everything from Cobalts, Focus', Solaras, Camerys, Chargers, Accords, and on and on and on. you know the cars I've found that have the best fit, the new GM's. I rented a Cobalt literally 3 days after I was in a Camery and a week after I was in an Accord, and these are all new model year cars. That cobalt had WORLDS better fit and finish than either of the imports.

and it's consistantly higher quality among the American brands.

But thats now what car and driver, or MT says. so instead of doing your own research just listen to what they say and let some over egotistical snob writer who has no clue about automobiles make up your mind for you. and just go straight to what they say and do what they say.

WE are the reason American auto makers are failing. We've got a sour taste in our mouth, and like little kids we refuse to take a second stab at it. but god forbid if someone doesn't give us a second chance.

[ReconRat]

If we want a bailout, do it right. Give the money to the people. Give a tax rebate to anyone who buys an American car. Everyone wins, even the IRS, they get more people filing taxes, apparently a lot of them don't.