Rich people screwin up our economy

[copperhead]

Eric, shouldn't you be working?

[HAOLE]

I agree that trickle down economics is bullshit and that Reagan was a complete maniac whose version of reality was very distorted. Still, in a market economy there will always be winners and losers, and its the responsibility of the winners (note, its the responsibility of the WINNERS not the government) to help the losers. Unfortunately, whenever anyone loses in this country instead of finding a solution or a route to a solution they point blame and come up with reasons they shouldn't have to do anything to receive benefits.

Why is it the responsibility of the winner to help the losers? Kind of like saying it is my responsibility to supply you grandmother with the medications she cant afford.

 

There will always be poor people, no way around it. You cannot legislate that mentality out of people. Of course I would argue in America we don't really have poor people. In America the poor have color televisions and prepaid cell phones along with a car. The majority have poor monetary decision making abilties, we cant change that.

 

I think what "The benz" wants is a redistribution of wealth. We have enough of that in America as it is we don't need more. BTW... If you think trickle down eco was bad, try redistribution of wealth. IMHO Trickle down was the reason for the 90's boom, not Slick Willy.

[TTQ B4U]

And you guys blaming the poor, you have indeed missed the point. They are a burden, yes, but htey are a burden to the taxpayer, which is us. ALSO keep in mind,t hat the welfare money that we are giving them is passing through them and back into the community. Even though they didn't make the money, they are stimulating the economy with it.

 

That's a loosing circular theory. The welfare folks are putting money back into economy is a positive thing? The solution revolves around getting them off welfare as nothing about welfare is stimulating the economy. The majority of people on welfare don't try to get off it. They need to be show the way or shown the highway. There is a way...but it has to start with their own will.

 

Buying a new car is pretty much fiscally stupid, they depreciate and don't do anything better than an off-lease used car. Suppose 20% of the car buyers realize this next year, and buy used instead of new. What happens to the auto makers? They lose, they lay off, unemployment goes up, welfare goes up, but the taxes funding it go down.

 

Here again, it's a matter of showing automakers that they need to focus on more than just products and building things. I struggle with this everyday at Panasonic and thus why they will be in my history book soon. I grew up in the car biz and there are tons of ways dealers and manufacturers can stay afloat, but it's about balancing the resources needed. Toyota is a prime example of efficiency. Toyota has have the will and desire to be ultra profitable and become number one. GM Doesn't or at least they old timers still there don't and instead they are forced to correct the wrongs by laying people off. They have to stop the bleeding they caused. They are going to bleed a lot more before they can get themselves upright....but sometimes it's best to let the wound close on its own.

 

The capitalist Economy is a circulatory system, and we're developing a a huge clot at the top.

 

IMO, it's not a clot just at the top...it's mostly at the bottom. The lower end of the income spectrum needs to acquire the skills and that begins with education. It's not about distributing wealth from those that have it, it's about creating wealth for those that don't. If we would spend half as much from the war on our own education system and fixing it the right way vs throwing more tax dollars towards a system that can't manage it, then we'd fix a lot of problems in this country right at the root level.

 

So we see a downward spiral. The wealthy sacrifice the workers to maintain their wealth...but it is those very workers that buy crap and contribute to the wealth.

 

That's one way to look at it, but in reality what you call holding onto their wealth is also a way to prevent the company from closing and many thousands of others from losing their jobs. Again, sometimes you have to cut off the hand to save the arm.

 

I feel for all those workers, but back to another posters comments, it's up to those workers to have a back up plan for their own life. Shit, all of us are subject to being disposable employees, but the ones who will survive are the ones with a plan. If you're a factory line worker clocking in and out daily with now real plan in life, then eventually you're going to clock out for good and due in part to your own lack of having a plan and putting it into action.

 

I'm trying not to sound like I'm advocating a communist "redistribution of wealth", because communism doesn't work. BUT, we need to take the trillion dollar clot from the people on the upper crust and spread it around to the working people so that they can spend it on houses and Pontiac's and Harley's and CONDOMS and trips to the lake.

 

so now by the rich putting money in the pockets of others, that becomes a bad thing? that contradicts what you said previously. in fact the rich aren't hording it...they are spreading it out and investing it and growing their wealth through investments and feeding the economy by spending those earnings.

 

Again, I firmly believe we need to fix the clot down low and get the uneducated in school and those without a will onto a plan of their own so they both stop sucking the rest of us dry.

 

How do people get super rich? They start out rich.

 

bullshit. there are plenty of folks who started out with dirt and made what they have. Yahoo, Google, Most every online dating company....you do the research, there are many, many of zero to Billion dollar people in this world. I won't rattle off a long list, but if you've ever seen the movie "The Pursuit of Happiness, you'll have a good time and learn about one of them. I'll let others chime in with their examples.

 

you can lead a horse to water......you know the rest. well the horses in our world are the poor. again, it's all about their own will and know how.

 

CEOs? Have you ever met one? Do you know what they do? They make loads of moeny because they can, plain and simple. They are not given a salary, so much as they are patted on the back by investors and the board. They've been getting X percent more every year for the last 150 years, and it's not because they are worth it. There are people getting multi million dollar bonuses while they drive their companies into the red. Sorry guys, if you don't grow our wealth, we don't grow yours.

 

yes, I've met plenty and call on CEO's and C-Level folks daily in my job. I call on a mix of Private and public sector folks and they are not just collecting a check for doing nothing.

[TheHaze]

Eric, shouldn't you be working?

Why work when you can complain on the internet?

[87GT]

I showed this to someone else. They explained that this was commie/socialist talking.

If it wasn't for rich people there wouldn't be jobs for everyone else.

 

Richard's contribution includes paying those overpriced crybabies that have a job you could pay a mexican to do for $40k less. And they would probably work a lot harder doing it too.

 

Now if you really want something to bitch about then think about this. CEOs giving crazy bonuses for laying off a bunch of people because on paper they cut costs.

 

But still I don't know how to fix this so I will stop talking.

[HAOLE]

I challenge you to make a million dollars by working hard. You cant do it (outside of professional sports). Some time, some where, you're either going to have to lose your shirt, or fuck somebody over.

In a year or lifetime.

 

Lifetime, I have done it. Not in one year though.

[TTQ B4U]

bullshit, the losers are the ones who need to help themselves. fixing the schools and the education system will certainly be the start, but the kids have to have parents and their own will to go to school and further themselves.

 

it's certainly not my fault nor responsibility to correct the fact that "johnny in the hood" is into drugs, skipping school and selling crack as part of his gang duties. get his fucking parents in line and show him the light...the need to fix it all is not up to the rest of us. that need lies in getting them to have the will to fix it themselves.

 

(note, its the responsibility of the WINNERS not the government) to help the losers.

[TTQ B4U]

Originally Posted by The Benz Guy

I challenge you to make a million dollars by working hard. You cant do it (outside of professional sports). Some time, some where, you're either going to have to lose your shirt, or fuck somebody over.

 

I'll say it again, Bullshit......both my wife each have done it and she started her business with a mere $5k that we made and put into the opening of her practice back in 1999. I'd love to add up all our income and investments and see what the total is....but in the end, regardless of what that number is, we have what we have because we did it on our own. I'll send you her law skill loan payments if you don't believe me.

 

It's all about Skills and knowing how to use them.

[TTQ B4U]

because we are each on our very own yachts and don't need the money.

 

Why work when you can complain on the internet?

[El Karacho1647545492]

To benz guy: My dad, who I know has never pulled any kind of dirty business deal, went from a Portuguese immigrant at 15 with nothing to an exec at Nationwide before the mass exodus a few years ago caused by the kind of corruption (IMO) that was the reason he left. He didn't fuck anyone out of a job, never did more than the job that was expected of him to its completion. Started at Sears and delivering newspapers, by some miracle his work ethic was greater than any I've ever seen in another person and just got the job done until now when he's running his own investment company now.

 

To V8KILR and pdqgp: the winners are only able to win because the losers lose, don't you understand that? Money doesn't simply appear and get awarded to the winners, that shit has to come from somewhere. Whenever someone makes a buck its at the cost of someone else not making that. There will always be unemployment. There will always be inflation. That is unless both of you propose to stop population growth altogether. When someone gets more money and can pay more for things, the price goes up and those who don't have enough money cannot pay for it any longer. Why is it that when a poor person doesn't get rich it's because of a "poor monetary decision" but if someone who was making money makes a poor investment its just one that didn't pay off?

 

Also, it was neither Silly Willy nor trickle-down economics that caused the boom, despite the fact that Reagan cut taxes for the wealthy because both he and George H W Bush raised taxes during their terms.

[TTQ B4U]

To V8KILR and pdqgp: the winners are only able to win because the losers lose, don't you understand that? Money doesn't simply appear and get awarded to the winners, that shit has to come from somewhere. Whenever someone makes a buck its at the cost of someone else not making that.

 

Not true. None of what I've earned was taken from anyone else. Unless you want to call a fellow competetor in my field a loser...but they too make good money. In fact the ones who you say my money was taken from, likely wouldn't qualify to have my job thus that negates them having ever had access to earning the dollar you say I took. That's their own fault and nothing to do with me or what I've done.

 

Higher paid execs are earning money that the laborers don't have access to. They are paid more because they are higher level folks in many different ways. Sorry, but line workers and laborers aren't worth what an executive is in the eyes and doings of running a corporation. They don't have what it takes, but perhaps if they would reach deep down inside, they could perhaps find the will to earn what it takes and be an executive someday. That's what is great about this country. You truly can be whatever you want. You just have to want it and know how to get it. It all starts from within though.

 

BTW, my brother in TX is a millionaire who goes to work everyday. He has no formal education, but is very smart and has lots of know how. He works as an exec. in the oil industry and while he did finish high school, he spent 12 years in the AirForce and began his career at Cray Computers thanks in part to a job well done with Uncle Sam and I'm sure he knew a few folks who knew a few folks. He had the will and found a way.

 

Why is it that when a poor person doesn't get rich it's because of a "poor monetary decision" but if someone who was making money makes a poor investment its just one that didn't pay off?

 

I wouldn't say a "poor monetary decision" is why there are lower income folks around. IMO, pay is directly related to skills and skills typically come from education. Having a degree isn't necessarily the only thing either....that usually just opens the door and creates a more well rounded person. The actual earnings and accomplishments of the wealthier come from hard work and smart work vs the poor who usually have a poor work ethic and little to no education.

 

There are no absolutes, but there are typicals and stereotypes are usually based on some amount of truth.

[El Karacho1647545492]

Not true. None of what I've earned was taken from anyone else. Unless you want to call a fellow competetor in my field a loser...but they too make good money. The higher paid execs aren't earning money that the laborers don't have access to. They are paid more because they are higher level folks. Sorry, but line workers and laborers aren't worth what an executive is in the eyes and doings of running a corporation.

You're just looking within the corporation or industry. What about market wide effects, thats where the losers come from.

 

Say you're in the IT field. You are able to earn your living at the cost of those people the IT field displaced in the economy. That would be, for instance, people unfamiliar with computer technology. And what about typewriter repair experts? Is there any demand for them after newer technology replaces them? Someday when oil runs dry, lets say electric cars replace them. Is the same guy who replaced your rods and pistons going to be able to rewire your flux capacitor for more jiggawatts? No, he'll lose his job because his skills are no longer required.

 

Someone always has to lose.

[TTQ B4U]

You're just looking within the corporation or industry. What about market wide effects, thats where the losers come from.

 

you'll never convince me that the poor (I don't like the term losers to represent the poor) are products of the rich. they are products of their own creation or lack of planning.

 

Say you're in the IT field. You are able to earn your living at the cost of those people the IT field displaced in the economy. That would be, for instance, people unfamiliar with computer technology. And what about typewriter repair experts? Is there any demand for them after newer technology replaces them?

 

my job nor other IT Folks have prevented the folks in the typewriter industry from moving up and to the right. Ironically, the division of Panasonic I work for was at one time where the typewriters were from. The very same group I work with sold and built typewriters and dot matrix printers that we were so dominant in with the market. That is truly ironic as we all have evolved and made it just fine.

 

 

Someday when oil runs dry, lets say electric cars replace them. Is the same guy who replaced your rods and pistons going to be able to rewire your flux capacitor for more jiggawatts? No, he'll lose his job because his skills are no longer required. Someone always has to lose.

 

so what you're saying is the guy fixing my car is going to stop all forms of education and moving forward to better himself? I'm not sure how old you are, but if you've not heard the old adage that "you need to embrace change or you will fail" but it's completely true. Old timers fear change and die on the vine, some younger folks can't keep up and lose their will...they too will fail...but those that lose don't lose because of others who win. They fail because they failed themselves.

 

If you as a car mechanic can't adapt to fixing electronics's, then my suggestion is you begin to create a plan that will keep you going once that time comes as it's coming fast. Fail to plan and you plan to fail. Another very true old saying.

[Sam1647545489]

If you were making 8.2 million/yr would you take such a huge pay cut after you put in alot of time and hard work to get a 8.2 mill/yr paycheck. I highly doubt it. Stop blaming other people and worry about yourself and put in your time and hard work and go make your 8.2mill/yr check./

[El Karacho1647545492]

so what you're saying is the guy fixing my car is going to stop all forms of education and moving forward to better himself? I'm not sure how old you are, but if you've not heard the old adage that "you need to embrace change or you will fail" but it's completely true. Old timers fear change and die on the vine, some younger folks can't keep up and lose their will...they too will fail...but those that lose don't lose because of others who win. They fail because they failed themselves.

 

If you as a car mechanic can't adapt to fixing electronics's, then my suggestion is you begin to create a plan that will keep you going once that time comes as it's coming fast. Fail to plan and you plan to fail. Another very true old saying.

 

I'm not saying that he shouldn't but are you suggesting that he, while supposedly trying to support a family and maybe save a little (despite the fact that the average american is something like $30k in debt between college, house, car, etc.) should also be continuing his education which is one of the most expensive things you can do? You're arguing for the impossible. Especially because there is a whole new generation of employable people who are more familiar and easily trained in new technology that are easier to hire than someone who is older and has to be retrained, and to be honest can't always adapt as readily. And what about when there is no replacement technology. Assembly line workers who have been trained to punch car parts can't all of a sudden learn to operate, program, and repair precision robots to do their old job. Your idea of pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps is very much in line with upper-middle class Americans, but a lot of times that simply isn't a possibility for the poor/losers in the market/whatever you want to call them.

[Drewhop]

Im pretty sure that somehow this is all Bill Gates fault

[RedRocket1647545505]

If you were making 8.2 million/yr would you take such a huge pay cut after you put in alot of time and hard work to get a 8.2 mill/yr paycheck. I highly doubt it. Stop blaming other people and worry about yourself and put in your time and hard work and go make your 8.2mill/yr check./

 

 

Fucking Dot.

 

Everybody else's problems are not mine. I'll do my best to succeed without giving the slightest fuck about how you're doing in life.

 

You don't want to be poor? Do something about it. Come up with a brilliant plan to knock Rich W. off the podium and take his spot.

 

Last I checked, America was a capitalist nation. Rich, poor, and somewhere in the middle. You want equality for all, move to China.

[RedRocket1647545505]

Im pretty sure that somehow this is all Bush's fault

 

 

Fixed that one for ya, before Thorne does.

[TTQ B4U]

I'm not saying that he shouldn't but are you suggesting that he, while supposedly trying to support a family and maybe save a little (despite the fact that the average american is something like $30k in debt between college, house, car, etc.) should also be continuing his education which is one of the most expensive things you can do?

 

yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. my wife went to law school at night and I worked two jobs and lived in a hole with my sister and her daughter while we both went to school full time...and she was a single parent and still is. if we can do it, all three of us, then anyone can.

 

The debt part of your comments is often times due in part to conintued bad decisions. AGain, my wife is a bankruptcy lawer and sees folks making $60k, $200k and yes, below $25k per year, so no matter how you look at it, typically they all end up going bellow up but now thankfully with the new laws in place, are forced to put a budget in place and pay the debt back. the very same budget they should have been using all along.

 

Education wise...it doesn't take a lot for a trade worker at Honda to then go get another job in a similar capacity or like if push comes to shove. Again, they do need to take some ownership and network and have a plan. I'm sorry, I don't but that people are the product of others....we are what we make ourselves.

 

 

You're arguing for the impossible. Especially because there is a whole new generation of employable people who are more familiar and easily trained in new technology that are easier to hire than someone who is older and has to be retrained, and to be honest can't always adapt as readily. And what about when there is no replacement technology. Assembly line workers who have been trained to punch car parts can't all of a sudden learn to operate, program, and repair precision robots to do their old job. Your idea of pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps is very much in line with upper-middle class Americans, but a lot of times that simply isn't a possibility for the poor/losers in the market/whatever you want to call them.

 

the only time it is impossible is folks who punch car parts don't plan on the future. then they themselves are the ones to blame. it's down right stupid of anyone to not expect things to change and not plan to move up and to the right on their own. the times of working someplace for your entire life doing the same thing have been gone for almost two decades, so that excuse is getting way old.

 

it's not impossible for a 50 year old to leave their job and start over. in fact, I interviewed with a 22 year vet. of Kmart who started out as a clerk. He's 52 years old and is now a VP at the company I am starting with in two weeks. Hardly a complacent bone in his body and he's a prime example of someone who was tossed aside for dead but refused to die. Sure, he prepared ahead of time. He completed his MBA at age 46 and knew that he wasn't going to retire from the Big K.

 

You're right on one account...there will always be poor and down and out folks, since there will always be complacent folks that just accept life as it passes them by....however, they shouldn't expect me nor anyone else to feel responsible. I have no problem "helping" but I'm not going to support anyone who can't support or help their own damn self.

[RedRocket1647545505]

I'm not saying that he shouldn't but are you suggesting that he, while supposedly trying to support a family(who's fault is this? Without a family, I'm sure he could pay for an education) and maybe save a little (despite the fact that the average american is something like $30k in debt between college, house, car, etc.) should also be continuing his education which is one of the most expensive things you can do? You're arguing for the impossible(is it?). Especially because there is a whole new generation of employable people who are more familiar and easily trained in new technology that are easier to hire than someone who is older and has to be retrained, and to be honest can't always adapt as readily. And what about when there is no replacement technology. Assembly line workers who have been trained to punch car parts can't all of a sudden learn to operate, program, and repair precision robots to do their old job(Things like that don't usually happen 'all of a sudden'. They probably knew it was coming. They could do it if they prepared by educating themselves). Your idea of pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps is very much in line with upper-middle class Americans, but a lot of times that simply isn't a possibility for the poor/losers in the market/whatever you want to call them.

 

Just critiquing.

[Science Abuse]

If it wasn't for rich people there wouldn't be jobs for everyone else.

Wrong. People will always need to eat and stay warm, therefore there will always be occupations.

 

You guys are (almost) all missing the point entirely, meaning that I will type for hours and hours and make no headway. You're so caught up in what you believe that you cannot see the data.

The economy, and therefore the nation, is better off with more people controlling the wealth.

It is not communism because I'm not telling you that "No one should have more than they need". I'm saying that no one should have more than they can spend. You still get your profits, you still get your capitalism, you still get your freedom. But you also have the responsibility to maintain the economy that has supported you.

 

Million dollar PROFIT, not just earning a million dollars over time. Get yourself a million cash-backed dollars of spending power (no credit).

 

Welfare rats aren't good, but they aren't as detrimental as the blue bloods. The welfare money stays within our boarders.

 

Regarding winners and losers: There are none. This isn't a game, this is a system. Everything you do effects everything that everyone does. Why should winners help the losers? Because if they don't, they will end up losing too. History repeats itself.

 

On the subject of history: I'm not a communist, neither are any of you, but if this keeps up, our grandkids will be. This isn't new, follow the same lines of economic progression throughout history and tell how well it's worked out....? It doesn't matter if it's an aristocracy of nobles or one of "income elite", they all get their heads cut off when the masses hit rock bottom and get pissed. The distribution of wealth will continue along these lines until it is corrected, either by those controlling the money or those who loot their mansions.

Vilfredo Pareto says so.

 

I'm done, youkids have fun with this one.

 

 

(Re: my work, I kept this open in a word doc and added to it as the day went on. I multi-task )

[Guest Subjugator]

we should tax everybody and let the goverment deal it all out equally, that way, nobody will have shit. i hate socialism.

[Tractor]

Very well thought out points Eric. Very informative too and I definitely agree that the exec making big bucks has less of an effect than the 160 works in the local economy.

The main flaw is with "the rich guy investing." You say he doesn't invest it all and even gave some numbers. If by that you mean he hides it in his mattress or in a safe deposit box then you'd be correct, but I'm willing to bet he's got savings and checking accounts.

If this is true than he's investing much more than your accounting for and growing the national economy much more than your accounting for since once his money enters the bank account it becomes numbers. These numbers then get used by what economists call the "smart money people." These guys have the job of studying and investing smartly all day long. A lot of small time investors even watch these guys moves to see if they can spot a bargan.

 

It also looks like your saying that everyone should make the same amount? Care to tell us what amount that should be? Care to explain why anyone would bother to excel in their job/life if they only get that amount determined by you? I think I'd take the job with the least possible responsibility and get paid the same as surgeons and smart money guys because it wouldn't matter. I bet they all would to and I"m sure they wouldn't take their jobs seriously.

 

Myself I believe in a 100% free market and "Buyer Beware" should be lived by, but thats just me and I'm nuts.

 

Evan

[Dave1647545494]

flat tax for the win

[Science Abuse]

The main flaw is with "the rich guy investing." You say he doesn't invest it all and even gave some numbers. If by that you mean he hides it in his mattress or in a safe deposit box then you'd be correct, but I'm willing to bet he's got savings and checking accounts.

This is true...but where are they? Nevermind that the saved money isn't befitting the economy nearly as much as it would if spent, just ask yourself: If I had to put 8.2 million dollars somewhere, would I put it in the Delaware County bank?"

Chances are, it would end up in Switzerland or the Cayman Islands.

 

If this is true than he's investing much more that your accounting for and growing the national economy much more than your accounting for since once his money enters the bank account it becomes numbers. These numbers then get used by what economists call the "smart money people." These guys have the job of studying and investing smartly all day long. A lot of small time investors even watch these guys moves to see if they can spot a bargan.

But you're focusing on a snapshot, what it's doing now. At some point, that money is going to be pulled, as well as any intrest and profit made from it.

Secondly, the X% that some one is making off of that $8mil is nothing compared to the benefit of 160 people spending $7.6mil of it.

 

It also looks like your saying that everyone should make the same amount?

Absolutely not, and I addressed this at the end of my last post. The way I put it was, "you make as much as you can spend." You still have every motivation to make money, with the exception of "I want to swim in cash like a McDuck." You want to make millions so you can buy a private jet and live on an island? Do it! For the love of god spend it, so people can keep making private jets and islands.

 

Think of wealth like a resource, because it absolutely is. Just like air, everyone needs some of it to survive. Suppose people began compressing and storing the earths air, sucking it out of the sky and tanking it some where. If some one was holding more air than they could breath while you struggled to get enough O's to pressurize you house, would you think that he deserved all that air because he could afford a big enough compressor to obtain it?

He worked hard on that compressor, he should have the right to as much air as he can get!

Beleive it or not, there is the same amount of wealth on earth today as there was during the hunter gatherer days. The difference between now and then is simply marketing.

"Oog need, meat, Oog need pelts, Oog need FIRE! What me must do is sell Oog a shiny rock that he not need, me must make him want it, then me get his pelts!"