Tractor Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Again your flawed because your thinking that the rich guy is gonna pull his money at some point and buy something and what he buys is gonna be less valuable than 160 workers buying things. Only a lotto winner blows 8 million dollars. The rich guy blows millions because he can afford to just like you blow hundreds. That same flawed thinking is making you think we should make only what we can spend. You still come to the same problem of who decides how much I can spend? Maybe I want to swim in money. Why can't I if I have the ability to get the money to fill a pool? Your the one taking the snap shot. I'm thinking much bigger picture. I even spelled it out for you "smart money" and your liberal mind can't grasp it. Even if it were in a swiss bank. Its still an account and smart money still invests it. Sure it may not be directly in US stock markets, but if the swiss smart money people are "smart" it would be in a lot of key US businesses and indexes. Once these guys get a hold of your money that you put in your very own checking account we ain't talking 1.4% interest anymore. We're talking 10 to 100% compounded monthly and thats not a joke. Myself I'm up 17% this month because I played the bad media vibes during the holiday about black friday numbers and I'm just "dumb money." Evan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractor Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 One more major thing. Please explain very simply how I'm suppose to only make what I can spend? You get a cookie if you can make that not sound commi. Evan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 The economy, and therefore the nation, is better off with more people controlling the wealth. not true. the vast majority of the folks breathing air can't manage their own paycheck to paycheck lives, let along be given more "resources" and money to mis-manage. if everyone was more equal and life were more "controlled" the ambitious folks would be angry a large majority of the middle class would then become complacent and the only ones enjoying life the most would be the ones would have the lowest education, skill set and drive to improve the undermentioned. No thanks. Pay the performers is what I prefer. The non performers should focus on further their skills if they want to keep up with the rest. "No one should have more than they need". I'm saying that no one should have more than they can spend. You still get your profits, you still get your capitalism, you still get your freedom. But you also have the responsibility to maintain the economy that has supported you. Define need. Need for what period of time? So if my spouse and I grow old and get sick you're saying we shouldn't have a savings or investment account to tap into and use to fund our new budget requirements? Doesn't make sense. Life and money don't grow on trees to where we can just pick off what we need. Besides, drug dealers and folks who are spending money they didn't have to "earn" and work for would hardly make sound choices. Shit they can't manage the few nickels they rub together now. Just look at how many poor people have big TV's, shit box cars with $2k rims and cable TV and what not. Again, no thanks. You want something....go earn it. Million dollar PROFIT, not just earning a million dollars over time. Get yourself a million cash-backed dollars of spending power (no credit). counting all of our investments and savings, and I'll play....I bet we're well over half way there. my parents are and have been for years as is my one brother. considering we have three doctors in our family and I'd say the count in our bloodline is pretty good....and the three doctors and one lawyer are from the sticks in Caldwell, Ohio raised on a farm. Welfare rats aren't good, but they aren't as detrimental as the blue bloods. The welfare money stays within our boarders. yes and no...the real problem is that it's typically spent on the trash that is built in China and outside the US. look at how much of what you have that's made over seas. some of the money spent by all of us stays here, but most goes overseas at some point in the transactional process. Regarding winners and losers: There are none. This isn't a game, this is a system. Everything you do effects everything that everyone does. Why should winners help the losers? Because if they don't, they will end up losing too. History repeats itself. Survival of the fittest also happens. There will always be survivors. Those that don't either didn't have the will to or couldn't. Ni ether is a bad thing, it's a natural event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Science Abuse Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Define need. Proof that you're not paying attention, and you wont because you don't want you to. You even quoted half a sentence to make yourself look better. The whole sentence: It is not communism because I'm NOT telling you that "No one should have more than they need" In light of this obvious twisting bullshit, this thread is a waste of time. Your trying to twist things to make them bend to an unrelated argument that you want to make. You opinion say that the rich are good and welfare is bad, but math says differently, and math is the only truth in existence. Evan, you and I should hang some time. I'll leave on chest thumping, since that is where this is going: http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1664/fuzzyup2.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 614Streets Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 You forgot political contributions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 So you mad because I pointed out several people that I know who have or are very much on their way to making a million bucks and fit according to your quote without credit? sorry, didn't know you didn't want anyone to chime in with an actual answer I'm also not trying to twist anything or arguing a point that I want to make. I'm arguing points that you're making. In the end, you think that the CEO of GM making $8.2M is wrong simply because the line workers put their pants on the same way he does? Sorry, I completely disagree that when you reivew their respective resumes and accomplishments side by side that your point is valid at all. Shit, what do you think Fred Ricart makes. I bet he brings home a huge amount of coin.....but hell, he has the largest privately held company in Ohio. Last I have noted he was ranked at over $600M and that was back in 2001. Tell me he doesn't deserve what he has. My guess, he brings $6-$10M yr. in to his own pocket/investments. You want to believe welfare is good for the economy...sure, call your local gov't representative and ask them to push that argument for you I snipped this from another site but it is classically true and right in line with the type of help I bet you're looking to have put in place. "Indeed, the folks in Washington, D. C., are so charitable that they want to extend unemployment payments another six weeks. I have personal knowledge how intensely important this kindhearted gesture is. Why, I know a woman who was laid-off from her job and whose severance package is about to expire. She has spent the last six months at home with her small children while her husband worked. But never fear! She has six more months of unemployment payments coming! Even though she has no desire to look for a job! Because she wants to stay home with her kids! And all she has to do is make two job inquiries a week to qualify! So she'll apply for jobs she knows she has no chance of getting! And now she'll receive yet another six weeks to not-look for employment she doesn't want! Is this a great society or what???" Proof that you're not paying attention, and you wont because you don't want you to. You even quoted half a sentence to make yourself look better. The whole sentence: It is not communism because I'm NOT telling you that "No one should have more than they need" In light of this obvious twisting bullshit, this thread is a waste of time. Your trying to twist things to make them bend to an unrelated argument that you want to make. You opinion say that the rich are good and welfare is bad, but math says differently, and math is the only truth in existence. Evan, you and I should hang some time. I'll leave on chest thumping, since that is where this is going: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Proof that you're not paying attention, and you wont because you don't want you to. You even quoted half a sentence to make yourself look better. The whole sentence: It is not communism because I'm NOT telling you that "No one should have more than they need" In light of this obvious twisting bullshit, this thread is a waste of time. Your trying to twist things to make them bend to an unrelated argument that you want to make. You opinion say that the rich are good and welfare is bad, but math says differently, and math is the only truth in existence. Evan, you and I should hang some time. I'll leave on chest thumping, since that is where this is going: http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1664/fuzzyup2.jpg Are you saying people should spend all of their money to fluff the economy? While I agree that spending money does help the economy, it doesn't help a person's financial security if they spend all they've got. It only makes sense to have a reserve in case the bottom falls out. If I had 8.2million, I could easily spend it. It wouldn't make a bit of sense to do so, but I could if I had to. I know someone's already asked you this, but, how does one determine how much they 'could spend'? I don't see any practical way of implementing this short of socialism. Should we divy up all of the U.S's money, distribute it evenly amongst the people, so that everyone has to spend as much as the next guy to survive, thus feeding the economy? Cause they sure sounds like what you're saying. That doesn't work. I think it's been said (maybe on this board) that if you did infact redistribute all of the money evenly, it would eventually fall right back into the same hands it was in before. Why? Because the financially smart, driven folks will make the money, and the folks with poor managament and drive will lose it. I see no good way to do implement what you're inferring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I think it's been said (maybe on this board) that if you did infact redistribute all of the money evenly, it would eventually fall right back into the same hands it was in before. Why? Because the financially smart, driven folks will make the money, and the folks with poor managament and drive will lose it. I see no good way to do implement what you're inferring. Exactly! you can give all the money you want to whoever you want, they will most all eventually end up right back in the gutter. isn't it enough of an example to look at the NFL. Thugs, hoods and punks with money don't make a good citizen. Lots fit the stereotype I mentioned before. No real shock that Sean Taylor suffered the fate he did given his background and problems. Proof that you can't solve those problems simply by redistributing wealth. My point...fix the underlying social problems that don't have anything to do with the wealth of the upper ends of society. Benz is looking to band aid a severed artery of poor education, low skills, low ambition and blame it on the wealthy who he thinks are taking from the poor. I just happen to disagree. If you don't like that the CEO of the largest auto maker pulls down $8.2M and you don't....then go get the fuck out of your working class world, stop bitching about things you don't have and what others do and go get what it is you really want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 BTW, Eric. I'm not arguing that hoarding money is good for the economy. It's just a fact of life, and there's nothing we can do about it. Your ONLY option for a better life is to do it yourself and ignore everyone elses situation. Can't save the world, only yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Science Abuse Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 pdqgp: Proof that you're not paying attention, and you wont because you don't want you to. How can you be so far off, you didn't even try to address what I was saying. I said was pissed because you weren't paying attention, your retort was "So you mad because I pointed out several people...". The hell, man, can you read? And no, you didn't post several anything that fit anything, again you probably didn't read the criteria. You are stupid, so you speak loudly/strongly in the hope of drowning out arguments, rather than debating them. Wouldn't be so bad if you didn't suck so bad at spin doctoring. While I agree that spending money does help the economy, it doesn't help a person's financial security if they spend all they've got. It only makes sense to have a reserve in case the bottom falls out. YES! This man gets it, you get a pint! We cannot afford to stimulate the economy, and we damn sure cant afford to set appreciable amounts of money aside for investments. If the 160 people made 10g more a year and maintained their consumption, they could have over $2mil a year in available investment money or screwing around money, either way, it's blood back into the system. This comes from displacing pay, it comes from the top and brings up the bottom. or Do what the Romans did, sack a country when you need cash, stimulate the economy with plunder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractor Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 If you don't like that the CEO of the largest auto maker pulls down $8.2M and you don't....then go get the fuck out of your working class world, stop bitching about things you don't have and what others do and go get what it is you really want. That is the truth. I'll only add that realizing a goal, hard work towards that goal, and a little luck is all that is needed to get out of what we call poverty in this country. If a person isn't willing to do it then they will never do it. Its just that simple. I really like these discussions. Its great fun talking all these points and hearing different views. Yes even the really ignorant ones as long as no one corrects my spelling:-) Evan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Feel free to start fresh in your next post and I'll try an answer it the way you want You can call what I'm preaching spin doctoring all you want, I call it the truth without simply bitching about not having what my neighbor does. From your original post it's clear you have issue with the haves and have nots of the world living together but haven't offered a realistic solution to helping the have nots other than saying they should be given money without earning it or that the rich should have less just because they don't need more money in your eyes. That's what I see anyway. I'm sure you'll correct me. $10g a year will save the world eh? I think not. Again, pouring water into a pipe that leaks and can't hold water isn't helping fill the tub dude. The working class that aspire to be better need to man up and go to school, work the system and gather and then use the skills it takes to be whatever it is they want to be...which I'm guess isn't what they are doing now. There's no free lunch, never will be and given the world a dollar isn't going to make this a better place. I'd love to see what the average working class GM worker would do with a $10k bonus. My guess is there wouldn't be too many spending it on making themselves more competitive in the marketplace so they could compete for a better job today or be seen as more valuable in the future. They'd prolly go buy a car that defines who they want to be without actually earning the money to really afford that lifestyle. It's very ironic that there are a lot of MBZ and BMW's being driven by folks who barely W2 what the MSRP of their car is listed at....but hey, they are living the large life and fronting a good impression pdqgp: How can you be so far off, you didn't even try to address what I was saying. I said was pissed because you weren't paying attention, your retort was "So you mad because I pointed out several people...". The hel, man, can you read? And no, you din't post several anything that fit anything, again you probably didn't read the criteria. You are stupid, so you speak loudly/strongly in the hope of drowning out arguments, rather than debating them. Wouldn't be so bad if you didn't suck so bad at spin doctoring. This man gets it, you get a pint! We cannot afford to stimulate the economy, and we damn sure cant afford to set appreciable amounts of money aside for investments. If the 160 people made 10g more a year and maintained their consumption, they could have over $2mil a year in available investment money or screwing around money, either way, it's blood back into the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Science Abuse Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I don't need to offer a solution, history has already pointed it out. There isn't one. You have build up and revolution, redistribution, then build up and revolution, etc. I'm just pointing out that it is accelerating as a result of legislation that promotes it. It's just like weather. An imbalance builds and builds until there is a storm, then things are nice for a while. I can't stop it, and you don't want me to. Equilibrium is what you would call communism. Also, your wrong in saying that I want the have-nots to be given money that they don't earn, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that they are worth more than they are earning, and the top tiers are worth much less than they are earning. like the image said "you need us more than we need you". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam1647545489 Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 BTW, Eric. I'm not arguing that hoarding money is good for the economy. It's just a fact of life, and there's nothing we can do about it. Your ONLY option for a better life is to do it yourself and ignore everyone elses situation. Can't save the world, only yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin R. Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I love when people propose an argument on CR and think no one will have a conflicting opinion. Get over it, not everyone agrees with you Dr. Rick Jr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAOLE Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I love when people propose an argument on CR and think no one will have a conflicting opinion. Get over it, not everyone agrees with you Dr. Rick Jr. Dont drag me into this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin R. Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Dont drag me into this one. That was quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAOLE Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I am surprised no one has mentioned this family. They have more to do with the centralized wealth in this country than any CEO. They are responsible for how our economy works today, ie The Federal Reserve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I don't need to offer a solution, history has already pointed it out. There isn't one. You have build up and revolution, redistribution, then build up and revolution, etc. I'm just pointing out that it is accelerating as a result of legislation that promotes it. It's just like weather. An imbalance builds and builds until there is a storm, then things are nice for a while. I can't stop it, and you don't want me to. Equilibrium is what you would call communism. Here's where we disagree again...you're saying you don't need to offer a solution and that history has dictated the answer for you. I call BS and say that's complacency and that isn't contributing anything positive anyone rich or poor. There's a solution, but it needs put in place and we can't go around complaining and saying it can't be done. Bullshit. That's exactly what keeps the working class where they are. They don't care enough or know enough to try and eventually, usually quickly, stop trying. It's not at all that I don't want to reach equilibrium. Weather society does or not or even if society can or can not isn't the point I'm looking at....I'm looking at the fact that you've given up and accepted a cycle that you think can't be stopped. If you really believe that, then go right ahead. If you think you will fail or can't do something, you're already more than on your way to and that's a fact and you will always be who you are now. I don't believe that nor will I be who I am today in five years. You seem to get mad when I quote things like this but I've never made the same or less money year over year for going on 15 years now. My wife is of the same mindset now and while at first she didn't care so much, but now that we have kids, she does and is on board 100%. I'm not bragging....I'm making a point that I don't accept complacency and that I'm constantly working to better myself financially and in other ways because I'm the only one looking out for me. I don't expect donations nor do I covet what I don't have and others do. I go get it by exercising a plan. I just wish that others who constantly complain about the "classes" in this country would finally understand and work to do the same. Also, your wrong in saying that I want the have-nots to be given money that they don't earn, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that they are worth more than they are earning, and the top tiers are worth much less than they are earning. like the image said "you need us more than we need you". Worth: the value of something measured by its qualities. The problem with that word in your usage is you're the one defining the value of someone who is rich and one that is poor. Everyone on this board will define the monetary value of two people differently. Unfortunately your worth or salary isn't related to the society in which you live. It's based on your contribution to your company or the folks who pay you. They set the value not he worker bees on your assembly line. The main problem in these discussions is that they center around thoughts like you've made here. CEO's aren't worth that much and laborers are worth more. Bullshit, you're worth what you go out in the world and get. Don't like making $45hr. then get a real job that pays a salary and carries you into a skill set that evolves so that in five years you can leap to the next level. I really get fired up when folks say "Damit, I'm worth more than the $XX I make per hour" Fine, if you are then it's up to you to go get that money. Get educated, learn a real skill, sell yourself and convince someone to pay you what you want. I am changing jobs and literally have been negotiating my salary and commissions with my new employer since Tuesday. Tomorrow is our final meeting to firm up the details over lunch. Do you honestly think I am letting them dictate what I'm worth or being paid? FUCK NO....I am showing them what I'm worth, and have a strong history and story to show that I absolutely am. This job leapfrogs me in income and responsibility too but I had to earn it and ask for it. Promotions come to those that can prove they are capable and usually to those already doing the job. Very few companies will pay someone big bucks on the hope they can do something. You have to come to the negotiation table with proof you've done it already. Don't for one minute ever expect anyone to give you something without your asking...and if you ask...you better back it up with facts as to why you're worth it. So show me in dollars and facts why GM's CEO is worth less and the line workers are worth more. Now that's a rhetorical question....but the workers at GM, are going to be out on their ass or will continue to suck tailpipe from their CEO's exhaust if they don't stand up and make that happen. That's all basic gegotiations 101. You don't get what you don't ask for and you don't get what you don't prove you're worth. Another tip....bitching about it anywhere on the net or to your boss won't get you shit either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinman Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Your right Eric. On the same note, I went to great effort to build a car with a lot of horsepower, much more than the average man's car. I should have spent my time and effort making horsepower for everyone. If they aren't going to take the initiative to do it, it must be my problem and my goal to do it for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Chew on this for a while and come back to me http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/news?slug=ap-paterno-salary&prov=ap&type=lgns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Beast Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 These posts are way too wordy for me. I'll reply after my butler reads through it and tells me whats going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Science Abuse Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Your right Eric. On the same note, I went to great effort to build a car with a lot of horsepower, much more than the average man's car. I should have spent my time and effort making horsepower for everyone. If they aren't going to take the initiative to do it, it must be my problem and my goal to do it for them Ahh not the same context, though. -First off, you're talking about generating power, not using it up. If you were to present the same thing as "I spent lots of time and money on something that consumes allot of fuel", then it would be along the same lines. You'd be accounting for a large amount of a resource for recreation, while lower power cars could use to do work. Thus, we Americans are paying more for fuel. The worlds markets are making it harder for us to acquire the resource. -There isn't a finite amount of horsepower. When you make more horsepower, it's not coming from anyone else's engine. When you lose horsepower, it doesn't go to some one else's engine. This is all hypothetical, though. We all know that FCs don't make shit for power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevethepirate Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 this is a lot of reading... so im just going to throw out a quick idea to think about. someone making 1m plus has also invested a lot in order to reach that salary. Im not expecting to make that much... but ive already invested A LOT into my mind. 4 years of college @ 41k/year= 164k, plus all of my expenses. college education is at least 180k for me, and im not even at that great of a school... 4 years of highschool @ 25k/year = 100k 3 years of middleschool @ ~16k/year = 48k just from tuition from middle school on, my parents have invested 330k into my mind. how many people making 50k/year have that much invested into them? this post is not meant to piss anyone off or anything, its just some food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin R. Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 You are an idiot. If you were rich you wouldn't have a problem with it so why should they? I hope one day I can help fuck up the economy with my insanely rich ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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