An example of why I don't allign myself with christian faith.

[Guest DeeEinstein]

There were 42 failed attempts to kill Hitler…. If there is a God seated on his Royal Throne in Heaven, why did he not let [one of them succeed]?

 

Here are three possible answers:

 

1. God couldn’t do anything about Hitler. But if that’s true, what kind of God is he? And if he can’t do anything about anything, why pray or worship him?
   
2. God could do something about Hitler, but he chose not to. In other words, he would be the most evil being imaginable. If a man could easily stop the Nazis without any innocent deaths, but chose not to, wouldn’t he be evil?
   
3. God doesn’t exist.
   

I’ll go with #3.

 

 

I realize this is my first posting since I joined in July at the administrative hand of the elder Mr. Green. However, I've been lurking around the past few months and come across an old forum regarding Christianity and faith and found it intriguing and then happened to stumble across this one today. Although, I do not entirely agree with your take on the topic... I do understand your perspective. You could label me a devout Christian as it is that I believe in the Trinity being that of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, I just started attending church in my teenage years on up till now. I personally don't get the whole "free will" deal. As it's been brought to my attention quite a bit just within recent months that each individual has a free will I still just don't fathom why God would give us the ability to possibly chose the wrong path when He could so easily just allow us to take the path that is right. Such as in the Garden of Eden... if He already knew the choices that Adam and Eve were going to make... what then was He doing? Hoping they would change their will's and turn away from their sin? Was he falsely setting up His own hopes although He knew they would do wrong? I believe in God, I have faith although I have a lot of unanswered questions regarding Christianity and it's true meaning. It always appears to me that the questions I raise never seem to find answers. At times, I find it very easy to question the true reason as to why I even believe. There is that ultra thin line that could so easily be crossed between belief and unbelief which then leads to doubt. I do though see how His hand has guided me in certain situations. I'll be honest though, I still get angry at Him as well because I don't understand why if He's so powerful why He choses to not prevent things we all know He could so easily prevent such as the Hitler situation but then again that just goes round robin right back to the free will deal. Anyhow... just my 2 cents on the subjet.

[CRed05]

It puts the lotion on its skin!

 

http://www.lolwut.com/pics/frostedbutts.jpg

[CRed05]

Such as in the Garden of Eden... if He already knew the choices that Adam and Eve were going to make... what then was He doing? Hoping they would change their will's and turn away from their sin? Was he falsely setting up His own hopes although He knew they would do wrong?

 

Exactly. He knows before you were even born that you were going to go to hell, but gives you free will so that maybe you'll choose the right life and not go to hell, but since he already knows that you are going straight to satan's crib, you will make the decisions in life that has already been set up for you to make, therefor you have no free will.

[thorne]

wow, This thread did not go to the crapped. I've enjoyed reading others insite into this. Since I've accepted that I disagree with christianity I've had a much more enlightened view of things.

 

There are some things that just have to be accepted as a person.

 

1. Miracles can't be true or else god is a spitful SOB

2. Devine intervention again same thing.

 

 

I have no problem with people believing in things. People may say I attack christians on CR. You have the free will to not click a thread like this. Sometimes I think people don't really know why they believe something and that in itself is dangerous.

 

Then you have those who think if your not a christian your not a good person. I personally have been doing a christmas toy drive since I was 13 years old when I gave my bike away. At that time I was far from a christian. I allign myself as an agnostic and I challange those to question there faith and pose the questions. If your affraid of the questions then i think you need to question yourself.

 

Faith is not a bad thing, But its not required to be a good person. To many times I've met people who would consider there selves agnostic but never mention it in public because of the social norm is to be christian even if the person claiming it does not know what it means.

[sol740]

I do believe in Free Will and the fact that everyone can choose their own path, and their own actions. And blaming one's actions upon God, is quite worthless in that sense.

 

I also believe that, I just don't believe in a god.

 

That is why it is "FAITH"....If it was a scientific FACT there would be no Faith at all, and it would be pointless. This debate will never be answered until you are dead, or God chooses to come back and reveal himself. Until then, you just have to either have faith or don't have faith that there is A God, and only 1 true God.....

 

I appreciate your view, I agree that that's what faith is for. I just disagree with the idea of "faith" being a good thing. Radical muslims have faith that killing infidels (us) will get them into heaven. Radical christians have "faith" that blowing up an abortion clinic is ok because gods "working through them". These examples are obviously the extreme cases, but it is a natural by-product of having beliefs that cannot substaniated by anything but faith.

 

Faith is also almost entirely based on what part of the world you happened to be born in.

[Scotty2Hotty]

I also believe that, I just don't believe in a god

 

I believe that God made fritos so addicting, that I can't resist them.

[Guest DeeEinstein]

Exactly. He knows before you were even born that you were going to go to hell, but gives you free will so that maybe you'll choose the right life and not go to hell, but since he already knows that you are going straight to satan's crib, you will make the decisions in life that has already been set up for you to make, therefor you have no free will.

 

 

That's the part about God that baffles me the most. Before He even created us He knew the direction we would take in life. So, then how does the direction we take equal free will? Sure we can chose to go left when He desires for us to go right, however then we have consequences to suffer due to being out of His perfect will (differences between perfect and permissive wills = a whole other topic within itself). Although, why would it be His will for us to go right when all along He knew we'd chose left? Does that end in the result of us defying God altogether?

[sol740]

That's the part about God that baffles me the most. Before He even created us He knew the direction we would take in life. So, then how does the direction we take equal free will? Sure we can chose to go left when He desires for us to go right, however then we have consequences to suffer due to being out of His perfect will (differences between perfect and permissive wills = a whole other topic within itself). Although, why would it be His will for us to go right when all along He knew we'd chose left? Does that end in the result of us defying God altogether?

 

That also baffled me. When I was fifteen, I asked my pastor a similar question. He basically told me the devil was making me think these things. I was disrought for weeks. I talked to my family, specifically to my brothers (both now pastors), and they answered what they could. I was afraid the devil was using me. I did what my pastor told me to do, pray, and ask god for help restoring my faith. I prayed, and pleaded for answers, or direction. Later my pastor told me the answer to my prayers was simple. Stop asking questions. The little voice asking these questions was the devil (or one of his workers). I renounced my faith the very next day.

[Guest DeeEinstein]

That also baffled me. When I was fifteen, I asked my pastor a similar question. He basically told me the devil was making me think these things. I was disrought for weeks. I talked to my family, specifically to my brothers (both now pastors), and they answered what they could. I was afraid the devil was using me. I did what my pastor told me to do, pray, and ask god for help restoring my faith. I prayed, and pleaded for answers, or direction. Later my pastor told me the answer to my prayers was simple. Stop asking questions. The little voice asking these questions was the devil (or one of his workers). I renounced my faith the very next day.

 

You know, seriously leave it to the leaders of the "church" to cause one to denounce ones' faith. I ask my pastor questions that I consider simple then again I'm always told I have a complex way of thinking so maybe they're not as simple as I like to think... anyhow, he never seems to have the answers. I go to a select group of family members and they just tell me I over analyze things. They too suggest to just pray about it and the answers will come but that's not always the fixer. They say that I just need to accept things as they are, however I'm not one to take things for face value. Explain to me why the grass is green. Explain to me why the sky is blue. Explain to me why God destroyed the City of Sodom and Gomorrah due to it being full of perversion but then allowed one of the men and his two daughters to leave for the mountain and procreate amongst themselves. Doesn't that contradict the whole purpose of destroying the above mentioned city? I asked my pastor this question and not much to my suprise... he had no answer. I asked others as well and I'm again just told I read too much into things. However, if I can't get a fuller understanding to reading the Word then why read something I find at times to be a bit contradicting? This is where my faith then becomes tested because yes, I still do believe... I just at times don't understand why it is that I believe.

[smokin5s]

You know, seriously leave it to the leaders of the "church" to cause one to denounce ones' faith. I ask my pastor questions that I consider simple then again I'm always told I have a complex way of thinking so maybe they're not as simple as I like to think... anyhow, he never seems to have the answers. I go to a select group of family members and they just tell me I over analyze things. They too suggest to just pray about it and the answers will come but that's not always the fixer. They say that I just need to accept things as they are, however I'm not one to take things for face value. Explain to me why the grass is green. Explain to me why the sky is blue. Explain to me why God destroyed the City of Sodom and Gomorrah due to it being full of perversion but then allowed one of the men and his two daughters to leave for the mountain and procreate amongst themselves. Doesn't that contradict the whole purpose of destroying the above mentioned city? I asked my pastor this question and not much to my suprise... he had no answer. I asked others as well and I'm again just told I read too much into things. However, if I can't get a fuller understanding to reading the Word then why read something I find at times to be a bit contradicting? This is where my faith then becomes tested because yes, I still do believe... I just at times don't understand why it is that I believe.

The answer is simple... religion was created because people needed something to be affraid of in order to be controlled.... If you live your life believing that once you die, that's it, you become worm food and you don't have anywhere else to go to then you are going to do what you want.

 

Most of the strongest leaders were able to lead by making people fear them....

 

Organized Religion is a means of control... nothing more... nothing less.

[Guest DeeEinstein]

The answer is simple... religion was created because people needed something to be affraid of in order to be controlled.... If you live your life believing that once you die, that's it, you become worm food and you don't have anywhere else to go to then you are going to do what you want.

 

Most of the strongest leaders were able to lead by making people fear them....

 

Organized Religion is a means of control... nothing more... nothing less.

 

I don't necessarily agree. Even though I have my doubts or lack of understanding at times... I do know that the right thing for me is to have my religion to base my life upon and believe in. Then again with the mindset that Organized Religion is a means of control is within itself a belief. So, inevitably we all do believe in something. It's just a matter as to what that subject of belief is and to what extent we believe it. Although, I do agree as you said, "Most of the strongest leaders were able to lead by making people fear them". That alone is abosolute truth, understanding that it's most and not all strong leaders that this comment applies to. Power tends to offer a sense of superiority which in turn causes great fear for those that do not hold this same level of supreme. That is why there are different classes in society. You have those that rule by domination and then those that submit. Somewhere along the lines they felt the need to fear those in higher standing than to believe that they themselves could be on the same level.

[sol740]

I agree religion is a powerful form of control, but that's not nessesarily how it began. Its been argued back and forth how it all started, and why. (some say it was an evolutionary misfire) I think its a byproduct of being self-aware. We know that we are going to die, and nothing can prevent this. However if there was a way to "live on", after this life, that would naturally be attractive to most anyone. So someone made something up and passed it along, pacifying the herd and providing reward, or punishment for specific acts. Gods played the role of protector, punisher, and even life itself, or all of the above. Now seeing the power of religion, those who would look to better their own selfish positions would use religion as tool. Theres that old saying, '... the foolish believe in religion

, the wise question religion, and the powerful use religion ...'. Pretty much spot on in my opinion.

[Guest DeeEinstein]

Theres that old saying, '... the foolish believe in religion

, the wise question religion, and the powerful use religion ...'. Pretty much spot on in my opinion.

 

I gather then this constitutes me as wise seeing as how I question religion amongst my own beliefs. Thanks for the indirect compliment... however, does this make me a fool or my ways foolish as well seeing as how I do believe in religion to begin with? I think when it comes to faith and religion there are a number of diverse opinions. After all, a religious walk is generally one you walk alone even though you have others in the same sector as yourself who believe in the same things but it ultimately boils down to a personal relationship. Although something else that has struck my nerve is the fact that so many different denominations exist. I've attended a number of churches such as Methodist, Baptist, Church of Christ, Church of God (Pentecostal), Charismatic, as well as Missionary Baptist (I live in the South, there's a church on EVERY corner). I've pretty much settled my roots in the Pentecostal Church though for now. Although, if you were to ask me what denomination I belong to, I'll politely just respond that I'm a Christian and that's all you need to know. I don't find the labeling process all too impressive. As it is, we are all suppose to be unified as one Body of Christ. Therefore, declaring a denomination just labels me as it only gives you the basis of what that denomination limits the way of my worship. Being Pentecostal does not identify my intimate relationship with Christ no different than if I claimed to be Baptist. These are just man's ways of dividing the Church over all and saying ok, you Baptist go over here and worship this way and you Methodist go over there and worship another way. Why then do denominations even exist? Is it only to appease ourselves as to what form of comfort we desire in worshiping Christ if we even worship Christ at all?

[sol740]

Therein lies one of the most frustrating issues regarding christians, particularly the ones that biblethump the hardest. Its all in the interpretation. Do you believe in the godhead trinity ? Or is that polytheistic ? In my opinion it definitely qualifies as polytheistic, but proponents will argue up and down that the godhead is a single god, just three separate parts (which makes absolutely no sense at all). What is he ? Voltron ?

 

Also many denominations will argue what parts of the bible are literal, and what is metaphorical. Some, all, or a little. Than you can move into whether or not the Old Testament was cancelled out by the New Testament. Plus a host of countless other arguments that are open to human interpretation, therefore they are and will always be flawed. Which leads to the single biggest, and most ignored problem with religious texts. They were written by men. People defend the bible by saying "god inspired the writings", which is simply stupid, seeing as how the bible is a thousand or so page collection of how mankind constantly fucks up.

[caseyctsv]

Doubters in this thread should read the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. I have always believed there was a higher power but also had a lot of questions and have been fighting my skepticism for the last couiple of years. I joined a Christian church about a year ago and while I am no where near where I want to be someday it has changed my life for the better. So if there is truly no God what is the harm in living a good Christian life?

[Dr. Pomade]

I'm not sure omnipotency necessarily equals determinism, or the lack of a free will. Just because some higher power knows what you're going to do (i.e., is omnipotent) doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have a choice in the matter (i.e., that things are "predetermined" and there's no such thing as "free will").

[Guest DeeEinstein]

Also many denominations will argue what parts of the bible are literal, and what is metaphorical. Some, all, or a little. Than you can move into whether or not the Old Testament was cancelled out by the New Testament. Plus a host of countless other arguments that are open to human interpretation, therefore they are and will always be flawed. Which leads to the single biggest, and most ignored problem with religious texts. They were written by men. People defend the bible by saying "god inspired the writings", which is simply stupid, seeing as how the bible is a thousand or so page collection of how mankind constantly fucks up.

 

 

I've just recently encountered this similar debate amongst my own family. There was a discussion wherein both misunderstood the other about whether or not the New Testament wiped out the Old Testament. That alone is ridiculous because the basis of the Bible lies within the Old Testament and without it the New Testament would not exist. I never really thought to formulate my own opinion on the matter until current circumstances thwarted my mindset in this direction. I realize that it's known to just about any human who has ever heard of any tidbit about religion in general as to how the authors of each book was "inspired"... I do believe this in some ways only because I do know that God can work through people to deliver a message (hints pastors and other clergymen, etc.). However, I've just come to learn that there are actually books of the Bible that are not even included. They have just been left out and it makes me wonder how I, a Christian being one who attends church on a regular basis never knew of this. Who authorized for these books to not even be included? This raises my awareness that it really does boil down to just being a select group of people's interpretation. I guess overall, denominations are no different than the different varying Bibles that are offered. Christianity when it's fully speculated almost appears to be like choosing what you want for lunch. Do I wish to be Methodist, Baptist, or Pentecostal... do I desire to read the NIV, the KJV, or the Message? So many choices and so many decisions. Did God really intend for it to be this way?

[KillJoy]

Sooo..... if you KNOW your child is going to pick the Red Crayon, and not the Blue one....

 

 

????

 

KillJoy

[caseyctsv]

I've just recently encountered this similar debate amongst my own family. There was a discussion wherein both misunderstood the other about whether or not the New Testament wiped out the Old Testament. That alone is ridiculous because the basis of the Bible lies within the Old Testament and without it the New Testament would not exist. I never really thought to formulate my own opinion on the matter until current circumstances thwarted my mindset in this direction. I realize that it's known to just about any human who has ever heard of any tidbit about religion in general as to how the authors of each book was "inspired"... I do believe this in some ways only because I do know that God can work through people to deliver a message (hints pastors and other clergymen, etc.). However, I've just come to learn that there are actually books of the Bible that are not even included. They have just been left out and it makes me wonder how I, a Christian being one who attends church on a regular basis never knew of this. Who authorized for these books to not even be included? This raises my awareness that it really does boil down to just being a select group of people's interpretation. I guess overall, denominations are no different than the different varying Bibles that are offered. Christianity when it's fully speculated almost appears to be like choosing what you want for lunch. Do I wish to be Methodist, Baptist, or Pentecostal... do I desire to read the NIV, the KJV, or the Message? So many choices and so many decisions. Did God really intend for it to be this way?

 

Be careful...many the "missing books" of the bible have been found to be complete speculation with little if any documentation.

[Guest DeeEinstein]

Doubters in this thread should read the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. I have always believed there was a higher power but also had a lot of questions and have been fighting my skepticism for the last couiple of years. I joined a Christian church about a year ago and while I am no where near where I want to be someday it has changed my life for the better. So if there is truly no God what is the harm in living a good Christian life?

 

This question was presented to my step-dad one day and he didn't know how to respond. I don't believe there is any harm in it at all. In fact, if you are uncertain... then I find it better to believe than not to believe. Even though I have my concerns, the question is presented to me by my family, why then do I attend church. I answer with the response that I know it's the right thing to do. It helps me in areas that at times I would be unable to continue on if I didn't surround myself in the fellowship of church and the Word. Although, it does not eliminate my questions nor my attempts at trying to figure things out. I'll always be on that quest and in the meantime... I attend service and make every attempt possible to live that "good Christian life". Hopefully you, yourself will one day reach the level you desire within the walls of the church as well as within your daily walk.

[Guest DeeEinstein]

Be careful...many the "missing books" of the bible have been found to be complete speculation with little if any documentation.

 

That I did not know. Thanks for the info. Some times I really question the reality of things. I find out about the missing books... ask around and others know or have heard things regarding them... however, I never knew anything of them. You research things and it all goes right back to the uncertainty of it all. What website can you believe? Who do you believe? Everybody has their own interpretation of everything.

[sol740]

I'm not sure omnipotency necessarily equals determinism, or the lack of a free will. Just because some higher power knows what you're going to do (i.e., is omnipotent) doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have a choice in the matter (i.e., that things are "predetermined" and there's no such thing as "free will").

 

I would agree if the stated being was not toted as being omnipotent, and infallible. Otherwise we'd be getting into the before stated string theory, and extra-dimensional clusterfuck that would be multiple versions of god, or a single god ruling all possible dimensions. This would not be an issue if the bible itself made any reference to such things, which it of course, does not.

 

Be careful...many the "missing books" of the bible have been found to be complete speculation with little if any documentation.

 

As has most of the entire bible.

[caseyctsv]

 

 

As has most of the entire bible.

 

You really should read the Case for Christ. The number of items in the bible proven to be true (places, people, hitoric events) far outnumber the items brought into question.

 

For reference "The Case for Christ" was written by the former Legal Editor for the Chicago Tribune. He was also a lawyer and an atheist. His wife was a believer and, tired of arguing with her about it, decided to use his investigative training to prove Jesus Christ did not exist and that the stories from the Bible were nothing more than legend. A way for people to explain the unexplainable. After his 2 year investigation he walked away a believer. It is well written and straight forward. he questions experts around the country about recent "theories" including "missing gospels" and the plausability of Mormonism.

[sol740]

I will do your homework, however you must read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. In it is discussed the origins of christianity and the bible as a whole, and how you can only trace those origins back so far before the leads fall apart. I have yet to find anyone who can make an argument to dispute this, while showing non-speculative "evidence" for their points. Do you have a copy ? We can trade.

 

EDIT: ... Uh-Oh ... not looking too good ...

 

I'll still read it, but sounds like more of the same standard Christian "pat on the back" reading ...

 

http://www.bidstrup.com/apologetics.htm

[caseyctsv]

I will do your homework, however you must read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. In it is discussed the origins of christianity and the bible as a whole, and how you can only trace those origins back so far before the leads fall apart. I have yet to find anyone who can make an argument to dispute this, while showing non-speculative "evidence" for their points. Do you have a copy ? We can trade.

 

EDIT: ... Uh-Oh ... not looking too good ...

 

I'll still read it, but sounds like more of the same standard Christian "pat on the back" reading ...

 

http://www.bidstrup.com/apologetics.htm

 

lol....the power of the internet.