Turbotrio Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 So, no one told you about this "bad" clutch when you left the shop? I am pretty sure Eric already went over the cause/effect of every little bump and dip and wiggle in the graph with AJ. Eric thought the clutch was new since the engine was just out and freshened up so he was doing what he could to take it easy on it. I don't know that it ever actually slipped during a pull on the dyno (Where you could see it on the graph) but you could smell it a little bit after back-to-back pulls. I wouldn't call the clutch "Bad" but that is why the graph looks the way it does at the beginning of each pull. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricZ06 Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 So, no one told you about this "bad" clutch when you left the shop? When tuning the car I could smell the clutch and figured it was new. AJ and I talked about this after the car had been tuned. The clutch does not slip on the street, but I figured I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to a customer car.... Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltboostin Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Yikes! Got the whole crew involved. Well, sounds good I suppose. Its not my car, so I don't feel I'm the one needing the explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 like both jeff and eric said the clutch does not slip (yet, after i get to beat on it this summer it might lol) and i am 110% happy with the work they did for me and would recomend them for anything. they are going to get more of my business for this car, my TBSS and the girfriends CTS-V. Eric did go over everything with me, what i think the smell was from was the engine. i rebuilt it, put oil in it and started it and drove it right to IPS to have it tuned so it had all of 20-30 miles on it by the time they got it so nothing really had time to burn off. i did have a coolant leak issue and didn't clean it off before i took it over to them. there is no smell now and it has been put through its paces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Its not my car, so I don't feel I'm the one needing the explanation. But instigate is another thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpfiend Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Because the clutch is not very healthy and we were rolling into the throttle slightly, you can prove this with TPS logs. Next theory. That explains the 2200 rpm step and the A/F ratio seems to correspond- but does that also explain the 2750-3200 rpm dip as the A/F ratio looks appropriate at that point? Does the TPS output show that the throttle was put down halfway, lifted and then stepped back down? A slipping clutch would explain that I suppose but when a clutch starts slipping and the load is maintained or increased does the clutch normally grab at that point? That clutch has what 10-15K miles on it right with the use and abuse of a 346 right AJ? And it was factory designed to handle the torque output of a 505 hp 427. AJ is your heel toe procedure that bad to have won ASP? ;-) It very well could be a bad clutch as !@$ happens but I don't know if that grab under load behavior is typical of a failing clutch. Coolant that was on the disc that burned off could do this however... I am by no means an expert but something does not look right in that window and curiosity killed the cat. Were there any other runs that were "cleaner"? Any timing output vs rpm in the 2750-3200 region? It sounds as if the car is very strong and the owner is pleased but I wonder if it could be even better if this dip were explained- it is going to be running against my similarly cammed '03 z this year you know hehehe ;-) Edited March 4, 2009 by hpfiend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbotrio Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 It sounds as if the car is very strong and the owner is pleased but I wonder if it could be even better if this dip were explained- it is going to be running against my similarly cammed '03 z this year you know hehehe ;-) I could get with Eric and we could both waste a hour of our lives posting more of AJ's graphs and over-lays of any one of a few hundred other lsx graphs (Both tuned by Eric and others) and on and on but we don't have that hour to waste. We don't owe you or anyone else an "Explanation" about any little dip or wiggle or anything for that matter on a graph on somebody else's car. Eric already explained everything to AJ and if you are that concerned with his car then ask him directly. Eric didn't start tuning LSx car's yesterday (I think his resume of big power / fast cars speaks for itself) so there is zero wrong with the tune or the car or the set-up or anything else. I spent 10 seconds searching but why don't you post asking Tony M. why one of his project cars has a weird "Dip" in the torque curve from 4-4500rpm and again from 5-5500rpm: http://guerragroup.com/PG6-14-07dyno2.jpg Surely one of the most well-known and respected persons in the LSx-world realizes how much better the car "Could be" if they were not there. Cam sizing and how well it works with the heads and over-all set-up is no excuse. Why does this car have the same weird drop at the beginning of its torque curve from 2200-2500rpm? http://guerragroup.com/2000TA_CheaTRvsTRak_dyno.jpg Like I said, I could do this all day long but the 10 minutes I have wasted with this is 10 minutes too long already. If you would like to critique / analyze / question anything else please ask AJ directly. Thanks, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpfiend Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 I inquired into the dip in the curve mainly out of curiosity and consideration of my friendship with AJ. With your response I get the feeling that you and your company feel threatened by these curious inquisitions. The curves you showed are indeed bizarre and I would question those just as much as anyone elses for personal education and an intrinsic automotive curiosity that I believe I share with a lot of others members on this forum. Linn's curve which is also LSX based looks to me as a v8 torque curve should look and I have numerous other curves of my personal modified LT1 and 5.0 cars that look the same way. Frankly I do not care to discuss this any further as the spark of my curiosity has been doused with your bad attitude, AJ currrently seems pleased, and your defensiveness only reinforces the fact that I will be taking my LS6, my father's LS3, my father-in-laws LS2, and my brother-in-laws LS1 elsewhere should I ever need work performed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbotrio Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Frankly I do not care to discuss this any further as the spark of my curiosity has been doused with your bad attitude I don't have a bad attitude at all (If you are friends with AJ then ask him or anyone else for that matter) but when he tells me he already talked to you about the questions you had last night and you keep asking the same questions today it does not come off as being inquisitive. To me, you come-off as trying to imply or insinuate that something was not done correctly or could have been done better. I responded showing you a couple other examples of graphs with "Odd" looking dips tuned by very respected and well-known shops to show you that dyno graphs are not always a nice smooth curve (Dyno smoothing aside). Jeff EDIT: Also, if you look a little closer Linn's graph he has almost the exact same "Dips" -- they are just less pronounced due to the scaling of the print out. Look at his drop off from 22-2400rpm and then again at 26-2800rpm. If we scaled the print-outs the same they would look virtually identical. EDIT EDIT: If I questioned something on one of Brian's graphs and he explained it and I questioned it again and again I would be flamed off the site for about 67 pages for insinuating he did something wrong with the tune. If you don't believe me, I will sign-up with a different screen-name and show you lol. Edited March 4, 2009 by Turbotrio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpfiend Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 I likely shouldn't respond to this but I will as practice in conflict resolution. I do not see how my private conversations with AJ have any bearing on this matter but cut and paste as you may they will not discredit me. I voiced the same concerns to him. In fact, I posted these same questions yesterday and then decided to edit them out and ask about Dan Pop instead as I figured if AJ was pleased then it's a done deal. However, 3 hours later yesterday you responded to MY original inquiry with the clutch explanation which I felt needed further clarification on how that would work with the second dip. I was not aware of these dips being present in so many v8 torque curves as you have seen many more torque curves that I have- and will agree on closer inspection that if the scales were the same on Linn's curve there could be a similar dip. The fact that it exists in other curves still does not explain the dip, however. I wonder if Linn also had a poorly behaving clutch? lol only joking :-). I asked if the TPS data backs up the second dip, I suggested the coolant on the disc could cause that, I asked if the timing looked strange in that region, etc, I ask doctors questions about their procedures even though I dont have an MD, I ask contractors daily about their work though I am not a licensed contractor, I question my wife on legal aspects and do not have her JD. I have learned that people that truly enjoy and comprehend what they do typically do not have issues with questioning and actually enjoy discussing it and illuminating others. In my work life and personal life I have chosen to only deal with contractors, doctors, tuners, etc that entertain these questions and this has proven a successful venture for me so far. Perhaps you are having a bad day and would be more responsive to my inquiries another day- I will talk with AJ this autox season about you and your coworkers as I also know other people on this forum personally who have used your shop and have had good results with their cars. There is no reason to waste any more bandwith on this matter and if you would like to discuss theories on what you think may cause momentary dips in torque curves please private message me as I would like to learn. Thank you for your time and have a nice day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbotrio Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Thank you for your time and have a nice day! You do the same and I look forward to talking to you in person at an Auto-X event soon Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 wow this went off topic quick. and your defensiveness only reinforces the fact that I will be taking my LS6, my father's LS3, my father-in-laws LS2, and my brother-in-laws LS1 elsewhere should I ever need work performed. i'm sorry to hear that. however i do think you should get all those cars out to the track this year, that would be a fun time. jeff, i did notice one problem with my car. it seems the cold and the rubber on the tires do not agree with each other. this will require more testing on my part to narrow the problem down;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltboostin Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 :confused: I don't have a bad attitude at all Hi, Im Coltboostin. Obviously, Im new here..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpfiend Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 You do the same and I look forward to talking to you in person at an Auto-X event soon Jeff Awesome! Will you have a car(s) there to look out for Jeff or just spectating? ...however i do think you should get all those cars out to the track this year, that would be a fun time. I will see what I can do- my dad is tempted and his paddle shift torquey LS3 would be ideal but he is being difficult- he and my mom autoxed and did a few hpdes with the porsche club a lot before I was born and a little after that until he remembered vettes were better than those status symbols on wheels. He sold the 67 vette he bought new to get his first p-car the 77 924 that we bastardized in my sig many years later. AJ- are you still on 295s all around or did you upgrade to 315s in the back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbotrio Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Awesome! Will you have a car(s) there to look out for Jeff or just spectating? I have a MR2 Turbo I never drive that I can bring out and toss around lol. I will try to get my brothers to bring their EVO's out for giggles (Im sure a 600awhp 35R EVO should be magical around a tight Auto-X course). I plan to come out and spectate for sure and play unofficial photographer if nothing else as often as possible Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 I have a MR2 Turbo I never drive that I can bring out and toss around lol. I will try to get my brothers to bring their EVO's out for giggles (Im sure a 600awhp 35R EVO should be magical around a tight Auto-X course). I plan to come out and spectate for sure and play unofficial photographer if nothing else as often as possible Jeff White cars + Jeff = never driven. They need to be red lasers to really get some action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbotrio Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 (edited) White cars + Jeff = never driven. They need to be red lasers to really get some action. Funny thing is that one is 100% by choice lol. I don't think it has broken or been "Down" the entire time I have owned it -- going way back to '95. I still don't think it even has 45K miles on it yet Maybe I shouldn't be looking at a white C6Z then Jeff Edited March 5, 2009 by Turbotrio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 295's on the street. 315/18's all the way around on the the track you should be able to find jeff around my car some at the track since eric wants to log some data during runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Funny thing is that one is 100% by choice lol. I don't think it has broken or been "Down" the entire time I have owned it -- going way back to '95. I still don't think it even has 45K miles on it yet Maybe I shouldn't be looking at a white C6Z then Jeff Put a red stripe on it, by logic it should at least get out every once in a while then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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