Name that motor!!

[99ta]

lol @ speed density. wow.

 

whats wrong with SD? from what I have read on tech its a toss up when you get to cams that big. there are good and bad to both.

[Ry_Trapp01647545522]

whats wrong with SD? from what I have read on tech its a toss up when you get to cams that big. there are good and bad to both.

"Which Is Best?

In a perfect world, virtually all street-performance engines would use Mass Air, due to its superior accuracy and greater tolerance for engine changes. In the past there was a problem on high-horsepower engines because larger-capacity MAF sensors were scarce and prohibitively expensive. Nowadays, oversize MAF sensors are available..."

 

besides, if mass air is in place and operating fine, why in the hell would you change it??? i've never heard of any other shops doing this.

[Miller]

I would conclude that the engine's just a softy or you should try a more reputable tuner.

[Sam1647545489]

should try a more reputable tuner.

 

 

Reputable tuner? Eric has tuned one of the fastest vettes in the country along with many other cars. I am sure Eric rep is good enough for a mild cam car.

[Sam1647545489]

t56= broken diffs

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/gearhead559/100_4129.jpg

 

 

notice it has stock heads!

 

Broken diffs? How long did his diff last before breaking. Call Chris and ask how long his has been in his car without breaking. It hasnt broke yet. And on the corvette forum thread, I see 5 posts in that whole thread, not one of them from the OP saying he has stock heads.

[MrMeanGreen]

I will step in and say two things:

 

1) To reiterate Brian, enough with the putting IPS versus Gearheadz pissing match. They have been civil enough in the recent months, I don't need some random member adding fuel to an otherwise amicable relationship. I'm not having it.

 

2) I don't see why a mild H/C N/A LSX should need a speed density tune. None. I will say that there are times for running SD, take a look at my car. The '98 model year COULD NOT deal with a MAF and anything above 7-8psi of boost. In that year PCM, it was damned near impossible.

[BlackMess]

Damn I'm suprised White hasn't appeared trolling in this thread!

[Guest Removed]

Broken diffs? How long did his diff last before breaking. Call Chris and ask how long his has been in his car without breaking. It hasnt broke yet. And on the corvette forum thread, I see 5 posts in that whole thread, not one of them from the OP saying he has stock heads.

 

 

chris dont abuse his.... chris knows its limits...erik, breaks them just about every time he drives his. well i guess when someone says all stock but the cam, it must be someone claiming CR stock huh.

[Miller]

Reputable tuner? Eric has tuned one of the fastest vettes in the country along with many other cars. I am sure Eric rep is good enough for a mild cam car.

 

I wasn't aware Eric did it? I thought BlackMess was done with IPS before the car was finished so why would they have tuned the car? I used logic in thinking he tuned with someone else. I know Eric can tune well but IPS also tags their dyno sheets top and bottom.

[BlackMess]

Car wouldn't run/idle after the head/cam/injectors so IPS had their tuner dial it in. I blacked out the IPS header and footer on the dyno sheet so no feelings were hurt!

[Evolved8]

Cliffs??

[Sam1647545489]

chris dont abuse his.... chris knows its limits...erik, breaks them just about every time he drives his. well i guess when someone says all stock but the cam, it must be someone claiming CR stock huh.

 

Well you dont know chris that well. He beats the piss out of his cars as well and was/ has been making alot more power then eriks car. Who is claiming their car is stock. I dont see anyone saying that either.

[Linn1647545492]

Long tubes wont fit with the 4l60e, car is a 93 FD. No idea why they went speed density. Heads are 243 I believe which are ls6 heads???

 

My car is a SD car as well nothing to worry about.

[Linn1647545492]

"Which Is Best?

In a perfect world, virtually all street-performance engines would use Mass Air, due to its superior accuracy and greater tolerance for engine changes. In the past there was a problem on high-horsepower engines because larger-capacity MAF sensors were scarce and prohibitively expensive. Nowadays, oversize MAF sensors are available..."

 

besides, if mass air is in place and operating fine, why in the hell would you change it??? i've never heard of any other shops doing this.

 

 

Shops all over the country do it.

[Guest Removed]

Shops all over the country do it.

 

 

doesnt mean its right!

 

theirs a big difference from your motor, and his! your car would be better for SD..since 90% of the time its going to be WOT!

[Linn1647545492]

theirs a big difference from your motor, and his! your car would be better for SD..since 90% of the time its going to be WOT!

 

HA, very true.

[Guest Removed]

and btw, just to add, the stock stall on a 4l60e converter is 1800. not 1000.

 

you sure the converter isnt locked up all the time?

[Nate1647545505]

"Which Is Best?

In a perfect world, virtually all street-performance engines would use Mass Air, due to its superior accuracy and greater tolerance for engine changes. In the past there was a problem on high-horsepower engines because larger-capacity MAF sensors were scarce and prohibitively expensive. Nowadays, oversize MAF sensors are available..."

 

 

Wherever or whomever gave you that tidbit lacks understanding and experience behind engine controls. Consider the following:

 

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4035/7mafsdcomparisonclean.jpg

 

The data on the top trend line is MAP based, while the bottom is MAF based. The trend line (black lines) are representative of actual engine airflow - calculated from an external equation that is big and ugly with many inputs from external sensors on the engine dyno.

 

Notice the top data is much tighter to the trend line during low air flow? Hmmmmm, maybe this is why companies (e.g. GM) spend the extra $ to use both MAF and SD models to calculate cylinder airmass?

 

Better yet, maybe this is why MAF transfer functions are being split into sections based on operation range?

 

Modern day OEM's offer all three basic models and use them at different times, with variable valve timing and camshaft phasing being the defacto - many have moved to an instantaneous equation: or "parametric" VE. Instead of a predefined array, you have a system response curve that is, for lack of other words, calculated on the fly. You would need tables upon tables to do work with cam phasing/valve timing/etc.

 

Arguing SD vs MAF is so 90s....I hope you like math -- because you'll be arguing some of the ugliest equations when it comes to response curves.

[Ry_Trapp01647545522]

that awesome piece of potential misinformation was gathered from this article...

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/electronic_fuel_injection/index.html

 

and most of what i(think i) know was gathered from these articles...

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0607mmfp_ford_efi_system_tuning/index.html

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0612_ford_eec_efi_system/index.html

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0701_ford_mustang_efi_tune/index.html

 

if these are wrong/there are better sources to learn about this, please let me know so that i legitimately know what i'm talking about(lol). i obviously don't do this stuff for a living, so i gotta learn it from somewhere.

 

either way, there was still no need to switch this car over to SD at all.

[Nate1647545505]

that awesome piece of potential misinformation was gathered from this article...

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/electronic_fuel_injection/index.html

 

and most of what i(think i) know was gathered from these articles...

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0607mmfp_ford_efi_system_tuning/index.html

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0612_ford_eec_efi_system/index.html

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0701_ford_mustang_efi_tune/index.html

 

if these are wrong/there are better sources to learn about this, please let me know so that i legitimately know what i'm talking about(lol). i obviously don't do this stuff for a living, so i gotta learn it from somewhere.

I wouldn't call it misinformation, I would just politely comment the author hasn't spent much time on the engurneeeering side or with newer tech stuff.

 

Check into the SAE's online library, lots of good reads. Greg Banish's books are a great read as well. Lots of MECH300+ classes cover engine control, if you are that interested, try auditing one.

 

either way, there was still no need to switch this car over to SD at all.

Maybe Eric has reasons (e.g. HPT's pseudo Alpha N Table that isn't available with MAF support), maybe the customer requested it? Who knows...

[Nate1647545505]

To expand on the pseudo Alpha N Table (the lightbulb in some heads may glow after reading)

 

1 bar Speed Density Enhanced

Applications: 1999+ Gen3 V8 (Most Operating Systems)

This enhancement is designed to aid in tuning vehicles operating in speed density mode (MAF-less). It includes a re-enabling of the dual spark table operation and also a TPS/RPM referenced VE table modifier feature designed in co-operation with some of the worlds leading LS1 speed density tuners. This new table is designed to assist in tuning of very large camshafts and intake designs that lose a lot of MAP resolution and/or have very narrow MAP dynamic range during idle and cruise transitions. It allows for traditional SD tuning methods, Alpha-N (TPS vs. RPM) methods or a mix of both to achieve the optimum tuning result. Another feature of the Speed Density Enhanced option is the lesser resolution secondary VE table is not used when in speed density mode.

The 1bar Speed Density Enhanced option includes:

- Speed Density mode only

- Dual (High and Low Octane) Spark table support

- new VE Multiplier vs. TPS vs. RPM table, with non-linear TPS resolution and RPM resolution

- Secondary VE table not used (if applicable)

1 bar Speed Density Enhanced in action...

Here's an example of the advanced capabilities of the 1bar Speed Density Enhanced option in use on a large camshaft naturally aspirated stroker engine fitted with an 8 throttle body intake (courtesy Sam's Performance). This engine exhibits the classic symptom of a large duration (270+), sub 108 lobe center camshaft: low idle vacuum. It also shows erratic and fast moving MAP readings, where just 2-3% throttle application results in MAP heading over 80kPa even at substantial engine speeds. This results in similar zones of the VE table being hit under different driving conditions and also gives very little tuning freedom for fueling in the available MAP ranges. This is where the new VE Multiplier table plays an important role. The new VE Multiplier table adds throttle position as a new dimension to tuning these engines. You can now adjust the VE table result at different TPS and RPM conditions and therefore eliminate troublesome fueling issues.

"With this feature from HP Tuners I can make even the wildest naturally aspirated engines behave on the street. Fueling issues that create drivability and idle quality compromises are definitely a thing of the past." - Sam (owner Sam's Performance, Sydney, Australia)

 

Hmmmmmmmm :lurk:

[NTHER91]

You just destroyed this whole thread, Nate.

 

 

 

Back on track the iPhone is better than android

[Guest Spam]

"Which Is Best?

In a perfect world, virtually all street-performance engines would use Mass Air, due to its superior accuracy and greater tolerance for engine changes. In the past there was a problem on high-horsepower engines because larger-capacity MAF sensors were scarce and prohibitively expensive. Nowadays, oversize MAF sensors are available..."

 

besides, if mass air is in place and operating fine, why in the hell would you change it??? i've never heard of any other shops doing this.

 

Wrong. Spin again vanna. MAF sensors disrupt airflow on many cars. They have scaling issues and worst of all, any leaks cause major problems in your AFR's. For turbo cars or even NA, a MAP sensor and an iat is all you need. It bases the calculations from a table, you can reset scaling very easily, and allow for better off boost driving and on boost driving. Speed density ftw

[Nate1647545505]

blahblahblahblahblahblah

 

http://electivedecisions.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/hindenburg1.jpg

[RyM3rC]

Can someone re-title this thread already? I think it has gotten off topic.