Spartan Custom Leathers

[alexchannell]

Custom fitted for $475 www.spartanleathers.com

I'm waiting on mine to arrive

[Moto-Brian]

Custom fitted for $475 www.spartanleathers.com

I'm waiting on mine to arrive

Those look VERY sub-par...

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

Those look VERY sub-par...

ditto....

[alexchannell]

Those look VERY sub-par...

How about you break that down with quantifiable reasons?

They like them a lot on the WERA forum, a few have been crash tested and held up with no issue, I have not heard any complaints.

[Moto-Brian]

How about you break that down with quantifiable reasons?

They like them a lot on the WERA forum, a few have been crash tested and held up with no issue, I have not heard any complaints.

The guys who have said they like them are street guys and not racers. Crash tests? Where have you seen any posted pics and actual info stating they have?

I've talked to Dave who sells them and have agreed to keep away from bashing his product. I will tell you this - you get what you pay for #1. #2, his mentioning of 90% of suits are made in Pakistan is wrong and in me pointing that out, he has removed that information from his site. He also is implying the suits are as good or better than more expensive suits. They are not. He knows this and should be more clear as to not mis-lead people.

Few things:

1) US Nationals are told to not travel to Pakistan for reasons relating to the crisis in the Middle East. Companies that build their suits in China travel CONSTANTLY to check on the assembly, the testing of the leather, and the quality control while being built. Dave has to wait until they are produced in a batch to check for issues. He can change them, but it isn't to say you won't be the guy with the suit that should have had changes made.

2) The leather in Pakistan is not tested and there is no way to prove it at time of assembly. Dave says it is a certain grade, but has no way to prove that. Most companies like SHIFT and AStar and others import their leather from Brazil and Argentina. These places produce what is viewed as some of the best leather in the world. The leather is tested and verified and as stated, companies travel to China to verify before production.

It is important to note that if it is stated as Full Grain leather, it can and should be proven. You can test it later as in taking it to a place here, but I know he doesn't do that...

3) Products that make the suit up are important and relative to the quality. Komodo is a Pakistan built suit and while considered a good suit, they also import into Pakistan certain products that they have put into the suits. I believe (cannot verify) they import the leather, as well...

Spartan only uses one brand that is stated - Schoeller Keprotect. A VERY good source for the stretch panels, but one thing I am worried about and not sure if Dave can prove as he doesn't go to Pakistan is the fact that they do NOT run the Schoeller tags. It COULD be Schoeller as you pay extra for those tags, but it could also NOT be Schoeller and he'd really never know otherwise...

The brand name products increase the costs and why a lot of entry level suits exclude them... CE approved armor is like SNELL for helmets. If Vega helmet has a SNELL rating and is only $70, then it MUST be as good as a SNELL approved Arai, no? We know the answer to that...

4) Thread and seams. They do not know the brand of thread other than it is nylon. That's not good. But, they also use the bare minimum in terms of seam assembly to protect the rider. Butt seams and such aren't as important as the ones on the hip, shoulders, forearms, etc. He talks about a crash that was on the butt area - that's sliding at slow speed and not tumbling. I need to see forearms and hips to understand how they crash...

Buy what you want, but PLEASE understand that these suits are sub par when compared to other suits out there. The Celtic suit KILLS this Spartan suit toe to toe. But, that $475 price point is going to attract people who are just getting into track days and such. It certainly isn't acceptable to those who know what to look for and what they want in terms of safety...

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

How about you break that down with quantifiable reasons?

They like them a lot on the WERA forum, a few have been crash tested and held up with no issue, I have not heard any complaints.

maybe looks can be deceiveing.

[alexchannell]

The guys who have said they like them are street guys and not racers. Crash tests? Where have you seen any posted pics and actual info stating they have?

I've talked to Dave who sells them and have agreed to keep away from bashing his product. I will tell you this - you get what you pay for #1. #2, his mentioning of 90% of suits are made in Pakistan is wrong and in me pointing that out, he has removed that information from his site. He also is implying the suits are as good or better than more expensive suits. They are not. He knows this and should be more clear as to not mis-lead people.

Few things:

1) US Nationals are told to not travel to Pakistan for reasons relating to the crisis in the Middle East. Companies that build their suits in China travel CONSTANTLY to check on the assembly, the testing of the leather, and the quality control while being built. Dave has to wait until they are produced in a batch to check for issues. He can change them, but it isn't to say you won't be the guy with the suit that should have had changes made.

2) The leather in Pakistan is not tested and there is no way to prove it at time of assembly. Dave says it is a certain grade, but has no way to prove that. Most companies like SHIFT and AStar and others import their leather from Brazil and Argentina. These places produce what is viewed as some of the best leather in the world. The leather is tested and verified and as stated, companies travel to China to verify before production.

It is important to note that if it is stated as Full Grain leather, it can and should be proven. You can test it later as in taking it to a place here, but I know he doesn't do that...

3) Products that make the suit up are important and relative to the quality. Komodo is a Pakistan built suit and while considered a good suit, they also import into Pakistan certain products that they have put into the suits. I believe (cannot verify) they import the leather, as well...

Spartan only uses one brand that is stated - Schoeller Keprotect. A VERY good source for the stretch panels, but one thing I am worried about and not sure if Dave can prove as he doesn't go to Pakistan is the fact that they do NOT run the Schoeller tags. It COULD be Schoeller as you pay extra for those tags, but it could also NOT be Schoeller and he'd really never know otherwise...

The brand name products increase the costs and why a lot of entry level suits exclude them... CE approved armor is like SNELL for helmets. If Vega helmet has a SNELL rating and is only $70, then it MUST be as good as a SNELL approved Arai, no? We know the answer to that...

4) Thread and seams. They do not know the brand of thread other than it is nylon. That's not good. But, they also use the bare minimum in terms of seam assembly to protect the rider. Butt seams and such aren't as important as the ones on the hip, shoulders, forearms, etc. He talks about a crash that was on the butt area - that's sliding at slow speed and not tumbling. I need to see forearms and hips to understand how they crash...

Buy what you want, but PLEASE understand that these suits are sub par when compared to other suits out there. The Celtic suit KILLS this Spartan suit toe to toe. But, that $475 price point is going to attract people who are just getting into track days and such. It certainly isn't acceptable to those who know what to look for and what they want in terms of safety...

Thanks for the input, lets hope mine works well enough.

I do have some doubts though, I mean my alpinestars GP Plus gloves should be of good quality (materials, manufacturing, etc) however in one season they are now useless. The fingers had open seams that split, the leather is very weak too. This is not the first time I've seen a "high end" product crap out. I went with the Held Phantoms...hopefully they will do better. Basically my point is, Alpinstars is great at marketing however I have been let down by their product in the past (hell their SP1's held up far better than the GP plus). Fieldsheer leather pants failed quickly too. The only piece of gear I have that has held up well is my jacket, a hein gericke (sp) and it was $130... I don't subscribe to the "you get what you pay for mentality" due to past experiences. Hopefully these leathers last, if they don't hold up I'll be putting up a nice scathing review

Frankly is seems as though you do take more risk with Dave's suits, however that doesn't mean they won't be better than other more expensive brands. Just because there is not a certification label doesn't mean much, they probably go and check 1 out of every 10 or hundred leathers and if it passes, they say it's certified. Heck look in the difference in quality in things made in the US, just because we have all that information doesn't = better quality and design.

I guess it can be related to "kroger" or "wallmart" branded items. Could be just as good as the brand name but cost less due to no marketing/advertising/recognizable name.

In reguards to the thread, nylon is a chemical, only differences between brands will be small, now if one suit used something that is acutally abrasion resistant (aramid fiber) then I would definatly say it is superior. All nylon scraped on the ground will seperate, it sucks for abrasion resistance.

Have you seen one of these in person? I'm curious for an outsiders review from actually seeing one, naturally the people who buy them want them to be great and it sways their opinion. Then again you get the others with their brand name suits and want to rip on ones that may be a better deal.

Edited January 28, 2009 by alexchannell

[Moto-Brian]

I do have some doubts though, I mean my alpinestars GP Plus gloves should be of good quality (materials, manufacturing, etc) however in one season they are now useless.

The GP Plus gloves are by no means AStar's top end gloves. Also understand that thinner gloves are something that some riders like (myself included) and you give up legth of use for feel. Thicker will last longer, but feels like shit - to me...

I went with the Held Phantoms...hopefully they will do better.

You have Held gloves and a $475 suit???

Alpinstars is great at marketing however I have been let down by their product in the past (hell their SP1's held up far better than the GP plus).

You are right about their marketing, but understand that AStar makes some really good products and they do an exceptional job at making sure the high end stuff does what it is supposed to do. It isn't marketing BS and they certainly have a great R&D department. I know the lady who was responsible for the AStar top end suits from 2007 back to 2002. They did a good job making stuff and still do.

"you get what you pay for mentality" due to past experiences.

But, you do. And, you have proven that it is true. You bought the Plus gloves and not the best glove of choice. A good entry level track day glove, but not the best Astar has. The Held glove is a HUGE step up and costs more money. There's a reason...

Your Fieldsheer pants - entry level pants. Buy a better or higher end pant and they would hold up better. Don't subscribe (sounds like you have, however) to the sales pitch that Spartan shoots to you. You DO get what you pay for. Like I stated, is a Vega $70 helmet the same as a $500 Arai???

however that doesn't mean they won't be better than other more expensive brands.

Yes it does. Spartan suits are not going to be a better suit than the Celtic, the AStar anything, the SHIFT Vertex, the Held suits, Dainese, etc... It's a $475 suit because it is worth that. If you think that it is fine that he CANNOT travel to Pakistan, he CANNOT test the leather to verify the level of quality, that there are no brand named products that are constantly tested and having to meet standards, then you'll be fine with the Spartan.

Just because there is not a certification label doesn't mean much, they probably go and check 1 out of every 10 or hundred leathers and if it passes, they say it's certified.

Trust me when I tell you that you are wrong on this. Companies test the quality of the leather. If Spartan states it is Top Grain or Full Grain or whatever, Dave is simply having to trust that it is being used and is what they say it is. Other companies (read as ANY of the companies like AStar, SHIFT, Hein Gericke, Teknic, etc.) go TO THE COUNTRY AND THE FACTORY and quality check the leather they are to use in their suits. Most typically import the leathers and field test the leather for quality. Just that step alone is VERY important to your safety and the quality of the garment. They will also travel at different times (un announced) to verify quality control and processing standards. It isn't batch testing, but it allows them to make sure the standards they require are being met. Dave looks at suits when they get to him AFTER they are made. He has a waiting period to make changes. The people that get suits that need something changed? They either have to send them back and wait weeks for them to get repaired or updated or they are out of luck.

I guess it can be related to "kroger" or "wallmart" branded items. Could be just as good as the brand name but cost less due to no marketing/advertising/recognizable name.

No, it can't. Again, I am upset at the fact that Spartan makes it seem that way even though Dave says he never says it. People like yourself that do not know any better believe him. The suit you have may never give you any problems. You may only really use it sparingly. For someone like myself that goes to the track over 20 times a year, my suit is going to hold up. The Spartan will implode should I put it through the same thing.

Spartan suits are $475 at full pop retail. Not close out or discontinued pricing. Spartan suits are NOT at the same level as most out there. If you feel they are, I am sorry. You then have fallen for the pitch and cannot be told otherwise.

In reguards to the thread, nylon is a chemical, only differences between brands will be small, now if one suit used something that is acutally abrasion resistant (aramid fiber) then I would definatly say it is superior. All nylon scraped on the ground will seperate, it sucks for abrasion resistance.

Actually, there are different types of thread out there that are used in higher end suits. Saying all "nylon" is the same is the same as saying all plastics are the same. They aren't. They can coat or use different thread types depending on the quality and level of protection the company wants. Nylon is a cheap alternative. Like I stated, they use the minimum in terms of how they make their seams. That's the bottom rank for seam joining. Other companies use a much more technical and elaborate way to meet seams and in doing so, it is more protection, but also more money. Again, you get what you pay for. Spartan would increase costs by using DuPont products, Italian armor, Schoeller products, Kevlar panels, different thread, better seam construction, and having leather imported for production of their suits. All those things would make the suit much higher in retail. Probably at minimal, $700-$1000...

Have you seen one of these in person? I'm curious for an outsiders review from actually seeing one, naturally the people who buy them want them to be great and it sways their opinion. Then again you get the others with their brand name suits and want to rip on ones that may be a better deal.

[alexchannell]

The GP Plus gloves are by no means AStar's top end gloves. Also understand that thinner gloves are something that some riders like (myself included) and you give up legth of use for feel. Thicker will last longer, but feels like shit - to me...

You have Held gloves and a $475 suit???

You are right about their marketing, but understand that AStar makes some really good products and they do an exceptional job at making sure the high end stuff does what it is supposed to do. It isn't marketing BS and they certainly have a great R&D department. I know the lady who was responsible for the AStar top end suits from 2007 back to 2002. They did a good job making stuff and still do.

But, you do. And, you have proven that it is true. You bought the Plus gloves and not the best glove of choice. A good entry level track day glove, but not the best Astar has. The Held glove is a HUGE step up and costs more money. There's a reason...

Your Fieldsheer pants - entry level pants. Buy a better or higher end pant and they would hold up better. Don't subscribe (sounds like you have, however) to the sales pitch that Spartan shoots to you. You DO get what you pay for. Like I stated, is a Vega $70 helmet the same as a $500 Arai???

Yes it does. Spartan suits are not going to be a better suit than the Celtic, the AStar anything, the SHIFT Vertex, the Held suits, Dainese, etc... It's a $475 suit because it is worth that. If you think that it is fine that he CANNOT travel to Pakistan, he CANNOT test the leather to verify the level of quality, that there are no brand named products that are constantly tested and having to meet standards, then you'll be fine with the Spartan.

Trust me when I tell you that you are wrong on this. Companies test the quality of the leather. If Spartan states it is Top Grain or Full Grain or whatever, Dave is simply having to trust that it is being used and is what they say it is. Other companies (read as ANY of the companies like AStar, SHIFT, Hein Gericke, Teknic, etc.) go TO THE COUNTRY AND THE FACTORY and quality check the leather they are to use in their suits. Most typically import the leathers and field test the leather for quality. Just that step alone is VERY important to your safety and the quality of the garment. They will also travel at different times (un announced) to verify quality control and processing standards. It isn't batch testing, but it allows them to make sure the standards they require are being met. Dave looks at suits when they get to him AFTER they are made. He has a waiting period to make changes. The people that get suits that need something changed? They either have to send them back and wait weeks for them to get repaired or updated or they are out of luck.

No, it can't. Again, I am upset at the fact that Spartan makes it seem that way even though Dave says he never says it. People like yourself that do not know any better believe him. The suit you have may never give you any problems. You may only really use it sparingly. For someone like myself that goes to the track over 20 times a year, my suit is going to hold up. The Spartan will implode should I put it through the same thing.

Spartan suits are $475 at full pop retail. Not close out or discontinued pricing. Spartan suits are NOT at the same level as most out there. If you feel they are, I am sorry. You then have fallen for the pitch and cannot be told otherwise.

Actually, there are different types of thread out there that are used in higher end suits. Saying all "nylon" is the same is the same as saying all plastics are the same. They aren't. They can coat or use different thread types depending on the quality and level of protection the company wants. Nylon is a cheap alternative. Like I stated, they use the minimum in terms of how they make their seams. That's the bottom rank for seam joining. Other companies use a much more technical and elaborate way to meet seams and in doing so, it is more protection, but also more money. Again, you get what you pay for. Spartan would increase costs by using DuPont products, Italian armor, Schoeller products, Kevlar panels, different thread, better seam construction, and having leather imported for production of their suits. All those things would make the suit much higher in retail. Probably at minimal, $700-$1000...

Have you seen one of these in person? I'm curious for an outsiders review from actually seeing one, naturally the people who buy them want them to be great and it sways their opinion. Then again you get the others with their brand name suits and want to rip on ones that may be a better deal.

GP Plus are only below their GP Pro gloves, to me, they should have held together better. (especially better than their SP1's)

Nylon is a type of plastic, yes you can have slightly different formulations but there is not a big difference. I agree nylon sucks, but no thread I've seen does very well against the asphalt (even kevlar) the trick is to have exposed seams in areas that are unlikely to get hit (or have the hidden all-together).

Certifications: You believe the 150 point certified used car inspections mean anything? Nope, just a marketing ploy to make people feel safe.

I certaintly can believe his suits are crap, however I have seen no information that actually proves that. Most of the information you have given is dubious and in reguards to brand naming, certifications and the like.

I agree the fieldsheer is not very good, however the jacket, at about $150 should be crappy by the logic you get what you pay for. I've crashed in it numerous times and never busted a seam. I've worn through the first leather layer in a couple places but it still protects well.

Helmets: Again, people pay for the name quite often. Does a KBC really not protect as well as an Arai? Possibly, but the KBC could perform better and we don't have access to the tests done to determine this.

Will the spartan suit be a piece of trash? possibly, however it seems you are basing that conclusion almost solely upon the fact it's not a big name brand and the leather hasn't been inspected before use (or at least not by the owner). I think we've discussed this enough though

I'm sure I'll run into you at the STT days, I doubt I'll keep it off the pavment throughout the year so we will see some first hand results from a crash (or 5)

[Moto-Brian]

GP Plus are only below their GP Pro gloves, to me, they should have held together better. (especially better than their SP1's)

They are below the Pro and the Tech. They are (again...) their entry level gauntlet glove...

Nylon is a type of plastic, yes you can have slightly different formulations but there is not a big difference. I agree nylon sucks, but no thread I've seen does very well against the asphalt (even kevlar) the trick is to have exposed seams in areas that are unlikely to get hit (or have the hidden all-together).

You are right about the seams, but again, there are better levels of nylon and better types of threads. What does Spartan use? Nobody knows...

Certifications: You believe the 150 point certified used car inspections mean anything? Nope, just a marketing ploy to make people feel safe.

Huh? Are you seriously comparing 150 point car inspection by a mechanic vs. batch testing and safety testing to meet a government standard? Dude... This isn't marketing and if you think it is, then you don't know anything about the industry. I know you don't, but quit making assumptions...

I certaintly can believe his suits are crap, however I have seen no information that actually proves that. Most of the information you have given is dubious and in reguards to brand naming, certifications and the like.

Dubious? How's this - I WORK for a company that makes and distributes street apparel and MX apparel. They have a VERY high standard by which they operate and they are regarded as one if not THE top of the heap in the motorcycle industry. So, the people I KNOW and TALK to on a regular basis have some pretty good facts that you the general public never hear about. Stuff like I have shared here. Don't go drinking the fucking Cool Aide from what Spartan may be selling you. I know you bought one of their suits and maybe have been feeling like you need to defend your purchase, but dude, you are really getting on my nerves with the whole seemingly knowing it all about the industry.

You sharing this via email with Dave at Spartan???

I agree the fieldsheer is not very good, however the jacket, at about $150 should be crappy by the logic you get what you pay for. I've crashed in it numerous times and never busted a seam. I've worn through the first leather layer in a couple places but it still protects well.

How'd you crash? I have seen people crash and break bones and end up in the hospital and their $100 mesh jacket held up fine. Others barely crash at 30 mph and blow out a hip seam on a $2k suit. What's the point of this?

Helmets: Again, people pay for the name quite often. Does a KBC really not protect as well as an Arai? Possibly, but the KBC could perform better and we don't have access to the tests done to determine this.

Again, your lack of knowledge is what is killing me. People like you spread mis information to the public and they end up believing (why, I don't know) your thoughts and buy junk stuff. An Arai is tested and developed and has features that overwhelm any KBC feature and testing. You are one of those guys that think more along conspiracy thoughts instead of reality...

Will the spartan suit be a piece of trash? possibly, however it seems you are basing that conclusion almost solely upon the fact it's not a big name brand and the leather hasn't been inspected before use (or at least not by the owner).

Do you think if other companies test and verify their leather and Spartan doesn't that it isn't case for concern? The fact that they use minimal tactics in their seams when others do better isn't a concern to you when buying a suit? I point out things that make the suit what it is - a $475 suit. Buy it if you want, but don't go thinking it is the same quality as other suits out there for more money...

[exSRAaron]

Alright enough arguing, get back to work on that HESD!!

[Moto-Brian]

Alright enough arguing, get back to work on that HESD!!

No arguing - I just hate when people debate w/o any real basis for their stance...

[alexchannell]

No arguing - I just hate when people debate w/o any real basis for their stance...

Lizard, I have been polite with you, you have started personal attacks and been completely oblivious to things I have said. Have I once said his suits are good? NO you on the other hand have never seen one and feel the need to trash them. I read your comments on the WERA board, you came across as an arrogant jerk, hence why many people there attacked you.

You sell apparel, thats great, you have no idea my background and I am not going to go into it. I would certainly say I am qualified to make an unbiased judgment of materials, especially considering the flaming you have done on various boards regarding these suits (strong bias against them). I don't assume the suit is great or terrible (unlike you are doing) without personal inspection.

Btw, I don't think the GP tech gloves existed when I bought mine. Also, maybe you should look at the SP series (my sp1's were gauntlet), they are lower end than the GP gloves...well, less expensive.

No I have not shared anything with Dave, what is this question for?

My lack of knowledge of testing helmets? Okay, why don't you find the testing specs and results from each manufacturer? You won't find that comparison as it's proprietary and could destroy certain companies. My open mindedness trumps you're vague opinions.

Government testing standards for safety of leathers? Show me those standards. Until you do there "testing and certification" means nothing. They could very well go and touch, smell the leather and call it "certified".

Never once did I say I know everything about this industry, I am however challenging your "know it all" attitude just because you work for an apparel company.

Whatever man, I'm done, you can believe whatever you want. I'm not sure why you have this vendetta for Spartan leathers, maybe personal issues, I don't know. Hopefully you can be civil on the track when I ride with STT this year. Goodluck man. I'm done discussing this with you.

[alexchannell]

Alright enough arguing, get back to work on that HESD!!

Working on it man, working on it!

(stop stalking me!!! )

[Moto-Brian]

Lizard, I have been polite with you, you have started personal attacks and been completely oblivious to things I have said. Have I once said his suits are good? NO you on the other hand have never seen one and feel the need to trash them. I read your comments on the WERA board, you came across as an arrogant jerk, hence why many people there attacked you.

You sell apparel, thats great, you have no idea my background and I am not going to go into it. I would certainly say I am qualified to make an unbiased judgment of materials, especially considering the flaming you have done on various boards regarding these suits (strong bias against them). I don't assume the suit is great or terrible (unlike you are doing) without personal inspection.

Btw, I don't think the GP tech gloves existed when I bought mine. Also, maybe you should look at the SP series (my sp1's were gauntlet), they are lower end than the GP gloves...well, less expensive.

No I have not shared anything with Dave, what is this question for?

My lack of knowledge of testing helmets? Okay, why don't you find the testing specs and results from each manufacturer? You won't find that comparison as it's proprietary and could destroy certain companies. My open mindedness trumps you're vague opinions.

Government testing standards for safety of leathers? Show me those standards. Until you do there "testing and certification" means nothing. They could very well go and touch, smell the leather and call it "certified".

Never once did I say I know everything about this industry, I am however challenging your "know it all" attitude just because you work for an apparel company.

Whatever man, I'm done, you can believe whatever you want. I'm not sure why you have this vendetta for Spartan leathers, maybe personal issues, I don't know. Hopefully you can be civil on the track when I ride with STT this year. Goodluck man. I'm done discussing this with you.

First, no vendetta. Dave and I have talked via outside the board. I am trying to educate people and folks like yourself are seemingly arguing with me on stupid points in an effort to justify the buying of these suits.

My goal is to educate and unfortunately (as what happened on the WERA board) people who have bought the suits, have been friends with the seller, or are just plain ignorant argue against my solid and truthful points.

You say you are qualified, but you mention things that make no sense and indicate that you are not aware of what goes on in the textile industry regarding the building of street apparel. Doesn't make you an idiot, stupid or a moron, but just simply isn't a base by which you understand. I can point out comments you've made that have pretty much pushed me over the edge.

Points that make no sense and are pure grasping of straws. If you are trying to debate, that's fine, but use facts and not opinions. My basis of debate against these suits are simple:

1) The seller makes claims (got him to remove the 90% of suits are made in Pakistan) that he himself has stated he didn't research more on. He's been noble and removed tags that were not true. He then states that these suits are as good as other suits in that price range. Nobody mentioned (Astar, Tknic, Hein Gericke, etc) even makes a sub $500 one piece suit, but using them as examples and trying to put Spartan suits up higher in terms of how they are viewed, it gets misleading and people like yourself feel it is worth the cost when they could have bought a gently used suit of higher quality for less or equal money...

2) I know what goes into getting suits and street apparel designed and built and controlled. I know that Spartan doesn't travel to Pakistan to verify QC and the leather quality. Again, that's important because if the Pakistan company states it is full grain leather and it is never tested, who really knows? It could be for a few batches, it could also be poor grade for others. Meaning, some may be fine in a crash while others may be VERY bad in a crash and cause injury. You need QC and proper testing methods...

3) People buying these suits are typically street riders or newer track day riders. The people bitching against me on the board weren't accomplished racers and certainly not too educated as to what was available to them and understanding of the differences in suits and how they are made. The Komodo thing is simple - they use a LOT of higher end parts in building of their suits. I suspect they also import their leather. However, I cannot verify as I don't know anyone other than racers associated with Komodo... They are not top sellers around the US.

4) There are a lot of people like yourself that feel things are similar and that marketing, brand awareness, fancy paint jobs and better distribution are the only reasons why a KBC helmet is considered lesser than a RX-7RR Arai. You feel they are both the same. If anything, the marketing is being done on the other end where KBC or Vega in my example, use that SNELL rating to promote to the consumer that their helmets meet the same standards and should be worthy of your consideration. The comment "If you have a $10 head, buy a $10 helmet" was constructed because there are so many low end helmet companies out there that have the same SNELL rating and yet are inferior in design. Do you know the difference between a thermal molded plastic shell with basic EPS vs. a Kevlar/fiberglass shell with an advanced EPS interior? Significant. Both meet a basic standard, but that's where it stops. That's why a lot of people like BSI rated helmets as they are batch tested. Know how many KBC and Vegas are batch tested? None.

5) I am passionate about this sport and this industry. It is my job to educate people because I want them to enjoy it with me. I want them to be armed with the best info they can get as many out there are not able to get the whole story on a bunch of different items. I can tell you I have tried on and even worn in action suits from AStar, AGV, Vanson, Spyke, SPIDI, Fieldsheer, Joe Rocket, Hein Gericke, SHIFT and even a suit similar to what Spartan has now. Yes, my first suit was a cheap entry level suit that I had no idea about... I can tell you also what the differences between the AStars, the SHIFTS, the Fieldsheers, the SSs, the Joe Rockets and others currently on the market. It's my job and I am around that stuff. Same with boots, with helmets, with gloves, etc.

Bottom line is that apparel is very exclusive at times to each buyer and person who wears it. I can only give opinions based on what I LIKE. However, in this case, people are unsure what Spartan is all about. My feelings are that if they are armed with proper information and understand that this is a safety deal, they can go and buy what they feel is good for them. People will buy Spartan purely based on price. Others will hopefully go out and check things out that I have stated and make an assestment and buy accordingly...

I am not trying to be a dick and anyone who knows me knows I am VERY civil in person and a nice guy. I just get pissed when people who have tid bits of information try and justify their side of things. When they face someone who has first hand knowledge, they get pissed and work the asshole side of things to detract from the reality they are trying to avoid.

I haven't said anything negative towards Spartan or Dave. I wished him luck and even stated that the suits will fit a certain demographic of people. I am not sure where stating facts is bashing. I also don't understand why everyone thinks I need to see one and try one on in person to evaluate the suit. From the pictures, the product list and from the specs, I can tell you a LOT about the suits...

The Government standards was in reference to the CE approval of the armor. That's a standard set in a governmental way. The leather testing is something that is done BEFORE the suits are assembled and advertised as such. That way should ANYONE actually test the leather post production they are sure it is what they stated it was. If you batch tested the leather from Spartan, it is likely that it will be inconsistent and not always exactly what is advertised. If you test a batch from say AStar and they have imported and tested it prior to production, it is VERY likely that it will test the same post production. Do you understand where I am taking this? I can say anything as long as you don't challenge my comments, right? Companies like AStar are established and have created a brand name in the industry. They are not going to toss it away by stating mistruths. One test and they could be sunk... There are tons of independent labs that test textiles.

Oh, and back to the helmet thing. Companies DO know what helmet companies do with their helmets. It isn't any secret at all. Test results can easily be found by testing the competition and helmet companies do use it when selling their product. It isn't a secret and guess what? I have been working with a pretty well known helmet company for about 10 years now. I know what the other companies do and how they go about dealing with SNELL. my comments are NOT opinion as they are based on some facts that with some searching on your part, can easily be found.

But, I have only been around this industry for over 12 years...

[Moto-Brian]

I also have had the honor of testing and helping in the developement of a few suits. Doesn't make me an expert, but it did allow me to understand the design and change process concerning the changing of suits and apparel to make it better as it progressed...

[alexchannell]

Here's a spartan suit that was crashed in. Granted it's only one example but the results are pretty good.

http://forums.13x.com/showpost.php?p=2387980&postcount=195

[Moto-Brian]

Here's a spartan suit that was crashed in. Granted it's only one example but the results are pretty good.

http://forums.13x.com/showpost.php?p=2387980&postcount=195

In the rain at 80mph. Not a good example. A textile mesh jacket and street jeans would have held up in that scenario. I want to see a guy who highsides at the track (where most 1 pieces are used) coming out of a 100 mph corner.

I want to see up close seam shots, too.

One thing of note - better leather would not have had those abrasions. Each crash can be totally different (I can show you a lady who crashed in a JR Airborn jacket at 60 mph into a guardrail) and walked away with literally what looked to be tar on the mesh surface...

Point is that crash tests are usually done by inspecting racers and what they put things through. When I worked with a company field testing their suits, I had to send back any crash suits. I also had to let them know of injury, etc.

For example, in 2005, I crashed in a certain popular company's suit and I fractured my left elbow. High speed high side at Grattan. The suit failed because it twisted on my arm and the seam where it met the Schoeller material came apart and I also got a burn from where it was exposing my skin. That was a $800 at retail suit at the time...

But, I have crashed at over 100mph and the suit held up fine before that. Ass slides and even a little forearm impact is common and usually never results in busted seams and exposures. It's the hips, elbows, shoulders, etc that take sever crashes and show damage and protection at the same time.

I'm done arguing. If you want to compromise safety, go for it. If you have a budget, there are a ton of suits out there under $600. If saving $125 and getting new is what you want, Spartan is your Huckleberry.

If you are an advanced track day rider or racer, buy something that will protect you in what you do...

[nochknstrps]

I just want whatever makes me looks fast!

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

I just want whatever makes me looks fast!

how bout a bike....

[nochknstrps]

how bout a bike....

don't you worry about that, with the right suit and a big wheel I'd look quicker than you guys in coshocton.

Edited February 5, 2009 by nochknstrps

[alexchannell]

In the rain at 80mph. Not a good example. A textile mesh jacket and street jeans would have held up in that scenario. I want to see a guy who highsides at the track (where most 1 pieces are used) coming out of a 100 mph corner.

I want to see up close seam shots, too.

One thing of note - better leather would not have had those abrasions. Each crash can be totally different (I can show you a lady who crashed in a JR Airborn jacket at 60 mph into a guardrail) and walked away with literally what looked to be tar on the mesh surface...

Point is that crash tests are usually done by inspecting racers and what they put things through. When I worked with a company field testing their suits, I had to send back any crash suits. I also had to let them know of injury, etc.

For example, in 2005, I crashed in a certain popular company's suit and I fractured my left elbow. High speed high side at Grattan. The suit failed because it twisted on my arm and the seam where it met the Schoeller material came apart and I also got a burn from where it was exposing my skin. That was a $800 at retail suit at the time...

But, I have crashed at over 100mph and the suit held up fine before that. Ass slides and even a little forearm impact is common and usually never results in busted seams and exposures. It's the hips, elbows, shoulders, etc that take sever crashes and show damage and protection at the same time.

I'm done arguing. If you want to compromise safety, go for it. If you have a budget, there are a ton of suits out there under $600. If saving $125 and getting new is what you want, Spartan is your Huckleberry.

If you are an advanced track day rider or racer, buy something that will protect you in what you do...

Calm down, did you see I said the crash was only one example, it's not definative. It held up in that particular scenario. If you think leather at 80mph will not be scuffed...well that is just silly.

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

don't you worry about that, with the right suit and a big wheel I'd look quicker than you guys in coshocton.

well then i would just have to find a bigger hill to make my big wheel faster!

[Moto-Brian]

Calm down, did you see I said the crash was only one example, it's not definative. It held up in that particular scenario. If you think leather at 80mph will not be scuffed...well that is just silly.

I said in the rain and scuffed like that is pictured... That leather for wet conditions and such a crash seemed to wear poorly considering....

[Casper]

I just want whatever makes me looks fast!

how bout a bike....

don't you worry about that, with the right suit and a big wheel I'd look quicker than you guys in coshocton.

well then i would just have to find a bigger hill to make my big wheel faster!