Spartan Custom Leathers

[Moto-Brian]

Lizard, you're a close minded fool that thinks quality is always representative of price. You have never seen one of these suits in person yet you bash them on many forums with no factual basis. Odd how basically everyone on the WERA forum told you to get lost because you were talking out your ass. If you've seen one of these in person, seen what happens in crashes then you can speak with some degree of confidence. You ripping on a suit from a picture, where the most you can tell is the seams did not bust, and there is discoloration. That discoloration could be abrasion, it could be dirt and asphalt, and even if it is abrasion, you must have an amazing eye to tell how much abrasion the leather has received. Get off your high horse, you are not the all knowing god to motorcycle gear you think you are. Time will tell how good the suits are. You ripping on them with no real world evidence only reveals your ignorance. Later dude.

Not sure as we have covered this, but nobody on the WERA forum is a hard core racer. A lot of those guys are hacks or track day riders that don't know any better. Dave and I talked via PMs and after we did, there hasn't been anything stated from anyone. The followers like yourself are the ones that have argued and tried to say I am "talking out my ass", but none have even remotely the history of suits that allow them to say the suits are top notch and yet when someone says otherwise, they got offended (Gee, just like you) and yet they have almost zero track time to even try and use other suits as examples of why the Spartan IS a good suit. But, I never said it was a bad suit...

Again, if you go back and read, I have cited NUMEROUS examples of my background and what I know concerning leather suits and street apparel. You have yet to cite anything other than seeing these "in person".

It's like a car guy that has tons of knowledge about a certain category of cars - they can see things in pictures and listed specs and know what the quality is.

I'm not a god to motorcycle gear, but I definitely know more than you do and the average guy. Most people appreciate me giving my advice as it can help them in deciding about their purchase. Unfortunately, you bought one of these suits so, you're either pissed you did or you cannot take someone saying the suit you have is poor quality when stood up against other suits.

Look, a Yugo was a car that was cheaper, got good gas mileage and for some people, lasted and stayed together for thousands and thousands of miles. However, when stacked up against say a Honda Civic, it fell short. Not to mention if it were stacked up against a BMW. Price reflects the quality and the sum of the parts used. You seem to think otherwise, but have yet to provide any examples. This is what, the second or third time in me doing this for you? Yet you cannot understand that the saying you get what you pay for rings true in this industry...

Point is that there are always winners and losers. Some items are better than others. There is no proof of leather quality, there is no product used in the building of the suit (other than Schoeller, but they do not use the tags and thus, cannot be proven unless tested) that is of known quality or known performance, there is the MINIMUM seam use (Dave showed an example of their seam use and it is the minimum used in suits for safety - others use a higher standard), the build of the suit is not as such as seen in other higher end suits.

All of these things and more do NOT need to be physically seen in order to evaluate. Not sure why you keep standing on those principles. Do everyone a favor and provide me with your suit and let me look it over. Leave it with a neutral party and I can look it over, take some pics and do an evaluation. If it is as good as any other $600-$1000 suit out there, I will eat pie on this site and tell everyone you were right. I won't cut or tear it apart in any way.

Or, you can call Alexa at Spyder Leather Works and ask her HONEST opinion... She's had these in person and has done work on them. I've talked with her and you can too. But, you'd rather keep saying I am an idiot, I'm a fool, that I don't know anything, that I need to have something in hand to make a judgement on and keep telling everyone on here the same thing.

You are a guy that shouldn't be arguing in the case of this because you haven't owned enough suits, held enough suits in your hands, haven't owned enough gauntlet gloves to know quality, a guy who is going to buy arguably one of the best gloves (Held) on the market and use them with the cheapest suit you can buy. This is based on your mentality of having to own or have in hand these things...

Please tell me when to stop. If credentials are what you require, you've proven nothing. The guys who know me know what I do and my experience. All I can say is that nowhere have a bashed these guys and their suits. I've said time and time again that you get what you pay for and you seem hell bent on using that as a basis of your comebacks. Now, me wanting to bash you? Well, you make the bed so...

Do us all a favor. One, either shut up and quit bashing my background and saying things that you have no basis or start using proper examples. Two, get me that suit. You can leave it with Nick who is a Mod on here, Bornsinner, Casper, anyone. Once they give it to me, I will get you the exact proof you are asking. Then maybe you'll see I know a few things... Until then, understand that I have resources and experience that nobody else is going to have. If they do, they will echo the same things I am saying. But, as usual, it sometimes comes across as arrogance and cocky. To those that get it, it is informative and helpful.

[Moto-Brian]

Isn't true that all suits fail at some point it all just depends on the circumstances of the crash. I've seen cases where some really expensive suits fail in the seems and left the rider pretty beat up but nothing that he couldn't heal up fairly quickly from. The point is they protected the rider to a certain extent.

You are correct and from an example that I stated a LONG while ago - I had a really close friend killed in a race at Putnam Park. He was wearing an Arai helmet and the chin bar broke cleanly off and it ripped off his head. Killed him instantly... A Vega helmet would have done the same thing...

Also, I have seen numerous guys with plastic shelled helmets fall at high speed and they were fine. Seen guys fall at slow speeds with expensive helmets and get a concusion. No two accidents are the same and while they are the best choices to protect a rider, I look at the materials used, the tests performed and the way they are constructed as the basis of what I feel is good or poor quality.

I look at things based on these factors - some do not. Batch testing in helmets is better than not doing so. SNELL ratings on helmets is no indicator of quality. Seam construction has a minimum and a better way of doing it. Which would you prefer when crashing. Knowing you have the best in terms of safety or the best you can afford is something that may not save your life, but it is one less thing you need to worry about.

I am not willing to sacrifice safety when I ride the track. These suits are not going to be seen on the top club racers, the top National racers nor the privateers and pro riders from the AMA. Sure, you can say it has to do with money, but in the end, it is a safety deal... Now, it isn't to say they are shit suits. It is to say they are good for the entry level rider. They are and shouldn't be considered an alternative for other suits like even the Celtic or a good used high end suit...

[DrummerDave]

Hey Guys,

Dave *Owner of Spartan* here.

Somebody suggested I join up as there was some discussion. . . little did I realize it was Lizard again.

Lizard may mean well, but working for a gear manufacturer, Lizard has a dog in this fight, so it is in his best interests to make me look as bad as possible, whether or not what he asserts is true.

That being the case, I would be happy to discuss my suits, the leather, the seam construction, etc. with anyone who would like.

Lizard, again, as I said in one of my PMs on wera, I have access to a guy who can do abrasion testing for me, and if you genuinely want to help, rather than just put down my suits, how about a 12"x12" sample of your superior Brazilian leather to compare results against?

Oh, and regarding no good riders being in my suits, here are a few who are:

1) Dan Jasa - CCS Expert - Won 1st in 2 of his classes.

2) This year Ron Hix - CCS Expert who won 1st in ALL 4 of his classes on his GSXR1000 will be wearing Spartan, and he will be doing some AMA rounds, as well as some national events.

3) James Ellis - LSTD Control Rider & racers Minis, so he'll likely be on the ground a lot this year.

Anyway guys, let me know if you've got any questions. I'd be happy to assist.

[exSRAaron]

I'd be glad to wear one of ur suits while racing, if you'd give me one. I guarantee it'll be crash tested many times

Aaron

Edited February 20, 2009 by exSRAaron

[Moto-Brian]

Hey Guys,

Dave *Owner of Spartan* here.

Somebody suggested I join up as there was some discussion. . . little did I realize it was Lizard again.

Lizard may mean well, but working for a gear manufacturer, Lizard has a dog in this fight, so it is in his best interests to make me look as bad as possible, whether or not what he asserts is true.

That being the case, I would be happy to discuss my suits, the leather, the seam construction, etc. with anyone who would like.

Lizard, again, as I said in one of my PMs on wera, I have access to a guy who can do abrasion testing for me, and if you genuinely want to help, rather than just put down my suits, how about a 12"x12" sample of your superior Brazilian leather to compare results against?

Oh, and regarding no good riders being in my suits, here are a few who are:

1) Dan Jasa - CCS Expert - Won 1st in 2 of his classes.

2) This year Ron Hix - CCS Expert who won 1st in ALL 4 of his classes on his GSXR1000 will be wearing Spartan, and he will be doing some AMA rounds, as well as some national events.

3) James Ellis - LSTD Control Rider & racers Minis, so he'll likely be on the ground a lot this year.

Anyway guys, let me know if you've got any questions. I'd be happy to assist.

Great. Now we get two for the price of one...

Again, please tell me where I bash the suits. Your buddy Alex who I am sure cried and tattled to you to come on board implied what I stated to you that would happen. He implies that your suits are as good as more expensive suits on the market. You also still imply that on your site...

Let's cut the shit and do something about it. Your buddy who does abrasion tests... Forget him. Let's send suits to RRW and have them do a shoot out. Let them get an expert to help them do the tests. Take a Taichi suit, a Dainese suit, an off the rack suit from SS, one from AStar, SHIFT, Hein Gerricke and yours. Let the expert in the field determine what the best suits are.

Now, let's also ask them to compare a suit with the same basic visual features as your suit and compare them. Essentially, it would be $1000 +/- suit vs. your $475 suit. How's the SS suit at $799 compare? Things like that...

What that would allow is a direct comparison and show everyone what it tests out as. Because the deal is that if you do that, you'll be comparing apples to apples and can then say or imply your suit is better than many of them out there...

The issue will be that we will have to believe that you'll be noble and actually use a suit that is the same as what you sold a customer and not one that is custom built to have the best features and seams you can get for just the test... No way to really prove that, but we would have to take your word for it...

Get on the line with JU at RRW and get it set up. The bottom line will be if anyone will actually sign up for the competition, but until they do, comments like "Better than many, but not as good as others." will be implying that "MANY" is exactly what it is saying. What are the "MANY" suits your suit is better than? Please explain because you have brain washed guys like Alex into thinking that the suit is better than AStar's suits, better than Hein Gericke suits mentioned here, better than SHIFT's suits, and better than MANY others out there.

It's a play on words and I appreciate your marketing and salesmanship. However, as opposed to over at the WERA board where a lot of casual riders who buy your suits chime in and make it nearly impossible to remotely criticize someone they know, here we can talk out loud and make you prove your points.

I have stated nothing but facts and use proper info to base my responses. You cannot provide true tests of the leathers at time of production nor here after the fact. Abrasion tests are not going to be the end all conclusion to what type or quality of leather you are using.

Look, it is a $475 suit that is out there. It's great as I HAVE STATED OVER AND OVER AGAIN for those with a budget minded situation at hand and great for the track day guys who use the suits once in a while. Giving guys who are mini racers and CCS racers at the club level is great. However, why have you not called Alexa and asked for a quote you can use? That would really help you out and allow you to show that you DO have a suit better than many...

Good luck. I am done. I was told by a good number of people to give up and drop it as it was fighting an uphill battle. I was even told by Alexa that it wasn't worth it to argue over there at WERA... She's a good source for those interested to ask what her opinion is of the suits. Just call her and ask how they would stack up against suits that are common at the track like AStar, SS, Hein, SHIFT, etc... She's pretty honest and she's had enough suits apart and worked on enough that she knows what she is talking about...

Oh, I do work for a gear company and so, maybe Alex can now understand where I get my knowledge. I also know what it takes to get things produced and what our guys do like going to the actual plant to overview production. The fact that our company uses one of the top ranked factories in China for production. The fact that our guys go to Brazil and Argentina to evaluate and choose the leather they want to use. They also see the way the leather is processed and compiled...

But, what do I know...? How many times has Dave been to Pakistan? How many times has he over viewed the leather process? How many times has he done QC at the point of production? These are legit questions as it is easy to get a completed product. VERY easy. But when the people that want to buy something and want to know why it is better than many, they deserve to hear from the "many" people as to what they do when they build their product. When someone says they are better, they should have to prove that... Haven't seen that yet.

I'm cool with the Spartan suits. I have always been cool with them. You DO get what you pay for. It's like a Swiss built watch vs. a watch made in China. They look the same. They keep time almost the same, but the internal components are night and day. You pay for the components and the process by which it is built.

Arai has a new ad campaign. "We know you wish an Arai cost less. It can't" Makes a lot of sense if you understand it. Some get it. Some don't...

[DrummerDave]

Actually, it was somebody over at SVRider that referred me - but I dont know what his name is. If it's Alex, he didnt tell me.

Listen, you keep wanting me to do a direct comparison to suits, many of which are well over $1000. I dont expect to win that battle. My suits are not $1000+ suits. I never claimed they were. Nor are the $1000+ suits even my competition. My competition is the entry to mid range level suits from your name brand manufacturers.

You want to do an apples to apples comparison, how about comparing it to AGV, Fieldsheer, Cortech, Teknic, etc, particularly those in it's price range?

I looked at 3 Fieldsheer suits at the Dealer Expo last wkd, and they all still used Stretch cordura! Some (ie "Radar" suit) had only double stitched seams in the butt, a MAJOR impact area! That's pathetic! Even their $1000 Rufus suit uses "Elasticized stretch panels" (aka stretch cordura) for their stretch panels. Even Teknic was using Stretch cordura for some of thier stretch panels on their higher end suits - why? Cause it's cheaper. It certainly isnt better. And yet, if somebody said they were buying a Fieldsheer suit or Teknic suit, would you say it was crap? What about their materials? But Im sure you wouldnt say anything, because they're a big company who surely has employees overseeing the production at the site.

I literally average 10 suits per month. Now tell me how it is even possible to make regular trips to PK (not even considering the security issues), or pay someone to do it, and oversee the operation when I make less in a year than that 1 trip would likely cost me?

And since were comparing apples to apples, do you think Barnacle Bill, or ZCustoms, or Syed does batch to batch testing of the leather they use? No? They must be terrible suits! Poor quality leather! [Note heavy sarcasm] I am a VERY SMALL suit manufacturer. I do not have the budget for that, as those other custom suit builders likewise do not have the budget for it.

But it's ok, you dont have to send me a leather sample - even though my leather quality was your #1 issue you brought up - I'll STILL have my stuff abrasion tested.

Since we're talking about materials, in our PM discussion you asked about the Keprotec. I verified that it is actually THE Schoeller brand Keprotec. Yet, on here you imply that Im lying about it, that it isnt really keprotec. Not exactly honest and upfront.

And now, tell me - WHO has said my suits were BETTER than A'Stars? Have I said it? Have I ever said my suits were better than Hein Gericke? Have I ever said they were better than any particular suit? If anyone said it, it is customers who compared it to their suits at home. I wont make that claim for 2 reasons. 1) I dont know that I couldnt be sued for making the claim. 2) There could be some aspect of that suit design that could be better than something on my suit. So then, somebody (you) would say - "Not true! This is better!"

I stand that my suits are better than many others on the market, especially after looking at my competition's suits. All of which were more expensive than mine.

How about seam construction?

I use a triple stitch like this for impact areas - Butt, side seam, back of arms. This seam is the best seam to use for high impact areas, and is the same seam as is used by most manufacturers in the butt (that center seam).

But then they (including Alpinestars) go to a double stitch for their other seams (given, for many one of those stitches are hidden)..

In areas that are not impact areas, I use a standard double stitched seam like this:

So tell me, what is inferior about my seams?

Could I go to a double seam where one is hidden? Probably. I may even do that, but if it's not an area that is likely to see asphault, it wont make a difference.

In your watch scenario, you're right. You do pay for the internal components on a watch (as well as the manufacturing costs thereof). But you also pay the employees salaries, and their healthcare plans, and their retirement plans, and for the offices and warehouses of the company selling them. You also pay the middleman markup when you buy that watch at (name a place).

With my "watch", you only pay for the internal components & manufacturing, and a modest markup for the one guy who oversees the entire business, designs the product, inspects the finished goods, resells them etc. And as I make a living other than via Spartan, I have not taken $1 in pay for the many hundreds of hours I've worked at this. It all goes back into the business to make my product better, and develop new products. The result of all that is a watch of comparable value for less money.

[DrummerDave]

Very similar design and features as the Spartan and when you total up the costs, they are almost identical. Designs are VERY similar if not in some cases the same...

I would probably wager a large sum of money they are the same factory pumping these out as Spartan. Goes to show that these aren't as direct as some people claim they are...

Hmmmmmm...

I know the guy doing these (at least, I've had some discussions w/ him), and I've seen some of his stuff first hand.

He does not have the same manufacturer as I do, and My designs are my own. I designed them myself. He sells the designs his manufacturer provided to him.

In addition, main seams on his suits are double-stitched, not triple.

[Moto-Brian]

Listen, you keep wanting me to do a direct comparison to suits, many of which are well over $1000. I dont expect to win that battle. My suits are not $1000+ suits. I never claimed they were. Nor are the $1000+ suits even my competition..

Better than many implies many suits out there. You don't say better than many entry to mid level suits. You say many suits... You need to be less vague and thus, some of my issues with your advertising. The company I work for tells people who we compete with and what suits we compete against. We are not vague and we do not issue vague statements...

My competition is the entry to mid range level suits from your name brand manufacturers.

You want to do an apples to apples comparison, how about comparing it to AGV, Fieldsheer, Cortech, Teknic, etc, particularly those in it's price range?

We can do that if you want, but that's not many of the suits out there... Many are average $700 and above. The entry level and mid level suits are not going to be targeting racers and aggressive track day riders.

I looked at 3 Fieldsheer suits at the Dealer Expo last wkd, and they all still used Stretch cordura! Some (ie "Radar" suit) had only double stitched seams in the butt, a MAJOR impact area! That's pathetic! Even their $1000 Rufus suit uses "Elasticized stretch panels" (aka stretch cordura) for their stretch panels.

Are they calling it elasticized panels due to not using Schoeller product or like you guys where they are not paying to use their name, but using the product and not using the badges? I am not sure what materials they are using...

I also know that Fieldsheer will use taped seams internally. I came from product development ties with Fieldsheer YEARS ago (so take that with a grain of salt) and they taped their seams. That adds strength and allows for less stitching to be used... I do not know that for sure with what they use now...

I'd have to see the seam in which you refer to. I can go look at a shop next week to see and even snap some pics... I will take a look and get back on this...

Even Teknic was using Stretch cordura for some of thier stretch panels on their higher end suits - why? Cause it's cheaper. It certainly isnt better. And yet, if somebody said they were buying a Fieldsheer suit or Teknic suit, would you say it was crap? What about their materials? But Im sure you wouldnt say anything, because they're a big company who surely has employees overseeing the production at the site.

The thing is that they are able to verify QC and oversee production. You never say it in writing or typed form that you cannot, but you have yet to go to Pakistan and oversee production and oversee the leather process, correct? Are they curing the leather with urine as typically seen in many Pakistan based leather factories? One reason why there is a certain "smell" to the leathers from some Pakistan based factories. Can you verify the leather at all? The thing is that these companies may cut corners on seams and materials and I wouldn't recommend an entry level or even a lot of mid level suits to guys on the WERA board or even aggressive track day riders... It's a moot point in you trying to argue concerning that... I wouldn't recommend the base model Fieldsheer, the entry level Teknic, etc... Why? Because you are right. They sometimes lack proper seam construction. They have seams exposed in areas of impact and are prone to being ripped and exposed too much in a crash...

My overall point is that you are now saying things that make sense. Your Spartan suits are competing against $595-$699 suits. That's fair enough. For $100-$200 less, you can get something a little more custom and with better service by yourself, etc. But to use the word "many" is like when you stated that a majority of suits are made in Pakistan. Even though I stated it was not true, you waited until Brian Van from STG stated the same thing.

I literally average 10 suits per month. Now tell me how it is even possible to make regular trips to PK (not even considering the security issues), or pay someone to do it, and oversee the operation when I make less in a year than that 1 trip would likely cost me?

But that's the thing. Because you cannot or will not, you cannot expect people to think that's fine. If you cannot go over and overview production or overview the leather process, you are simply guessing or trying to convince people to take your word for it. Other companies go over regularly and check things out. When the 2009 stuff comes out for most companies (usually around September or later in 2008), those companies have already developed and set into motion their 2010 product line. They are usually 2 years ahead in terms of product. They make numerous trips to factories for fabrics, for tooling, for production information, etc. You do not do that. Not saying you are lying or telling falsehoods. Just simply saying you cannot verify things and give a 100% factual scope of what is actually done...

And since were comparing apples to apples, do you think Barnacle Bill, or ZCustoms, or Syed does batch to batch testing of the leather they use? No? They must be terrible suits! Poor quality leather! [Note heavy sarcasm] I am a VERY SMALL suit manufacturer. I do not have the budget for that, as those other custom suit builders likewise do not have the budget for it.

I cannot speak for BB, but I bet I can email him and ask and he can tell me. My guess is he has a leather supplier that is able to give him exacts on the leather he buys from them. I also know there are still some US based leather processing plants here. I almost bet he gets them from there, but I cannot confirm. I will ask next week and let you know....

But it's ok, you dont have to send me a leather sample - even though my leather quality was your #1 issue you brought up - I'll STILL have my stuff abrasion tested.

I can send you a leather sample, but what will that prove? How can you prove that your leather is what it is and is processed the way you say it is? Most companies have that as proprietary in form and will not provide the samples, but you can buy them easily enough and go through the process. However, they can supply their sources and you can go there and verify the leather process at the factories like they do. Maybe you can source some leather on a trip there...

As far as the abrasion test, how do you do that? what is the process you use? How do you rate in terms of the industry? Have you used other companies and their leather and did an exact comparison or do you test your leather and tell people you do? There's a standard used and there are only a handful of companies that do this under the set standards. Who do you use?

Since we're talking about materials, in our PM discussion you asked about the Keprotec. I verified that it is actually THE Schoeller brand Keprotec. Yet, on here you imply that Im lying about it, that it isnt really keprotec. Not exactly honest and upfront.

You stated you use Schoeller's stuff, but that you do not use their tags. The reasoning I am sure is because you don't want to pay them for that tag as other people and companies do. However, because there are no tags, can you confirm that it is being used in the process at production? Since you don't go to the factory, are you basically taking the factory's word that they are using it and not a cheaper material? There are many companies that have similar material that is very much the same and tests out the same, but are cheaper. You do pay for that name, you know...

And now, tell me - WHO has said my suits were BETTER than A'Stars? Have I said it? Have I ever said my suits were better than Hein Gericke? Have I ever said they were better than any particular suit? If anyone said it, it is customers who compared it to their suits at home. I wont make that claim for 2 reasons. 1) I dont know that I couldnt be sued for making the claim. 2) There could be some aspect of that suit design that could be better than something on my suit. So then, somebody (you) would say - "Not true! This is better!"

I stand that my suits are better than many others on the market, especially after looking at my competition's suits. All of which were more expensive than mine..

"Better than many" is a quote. Above you stated that it is now just entry to mid-level. Is it most of those? Is AStar only one of the few that are better than yours? You say not as good as others... Does AStar fit into that "others"?

Not busting your balls too much, but man, here's the drill. I am not worried about the leather as much as I am about the fact that you NEVER go to the factory, you NEVER go and verify the leather process, you NEVER go through and validate QC and how the suit is built at time of production. That's the thing. You are a good salesman, for sure and I appreciate you have something to offer the entry level guys.

The thing is now that you have stated you compete with entry level and mid level suits, I am less upset. I think that's important and not deceiving...

Good luck on your venture. Just be more up front with everyone. There's a LOT of "green" or inexperienced buyers out there that can easily think something is better than what they need...

[DrummerDave]

Are they calling it elasticized panels due to not using Schoeller product or like you guys where they are not paying to use their name, but using the product and not using the badges? I am not sure what materials they are using...

They're definitely not using Keprotec. It's pretty easy to see the difference between Keprotec and stretch Cordura. Some suits will have both, and you can see the difference (I think Fieldsheer's $1000 suit had both).

But to use the word "many" is like when you stated that a majority of suits are made in Pakistan. Even though I stated it was not true, you waited until Brian Van from STG stated the same thing.

Well, I didnt know you from Adam, and Brian has a solid reputation. No offense.

I did still see alot of suits made from PK at the dealer Expo. But again, I concede that I was WRONG about that statement. It wasnt done to intentionally deceive, but it was wrong nonetheless.

I cannot speak for BB, but I bet I can email him and ask and he can tell me. My guess is he has a leather supplier that is able to give him exacts on the leather he buys from them. I also know there are still some US based leather processing plants here. I almost bet he gets them from there, but I cannot confirm. I will ask next week and let you know....

I was speaking Hypothetically, as I have no clue as to what each builder does, nor do I know where they source their leather. But I would assume that the small builders simply do not have the resources to have their leather batch tested.

I can send you a leather sample, but what will that prove? How can you prove that your leather is what it is and is processed the way you say it is? Most companies have that as proprietary in form and will not provide the samples, but you can buy them easily enough and go through the process. However, they can supply their sources and you can go there and verify the leather process at the factories like they do. Maybe you can source some leather on a trip there...

As far as the abrasion test, how do you do that? what is the process you use? How do you rate in terms of the industry? Have you used other companies and their leather and did an exact comparison or do you test your leather and tell people you do? There's a standard used and there are only a handful of companies that do this under the set standards. Who do you use?

The guy I spoke to works for a place that does all kinds of material testing, including abrasion testing. He said he had 2 abrasion testing machines. I dont recall what they were called. All a leather sample from you would do is give me something to compare against. You're obviously very confident in the leather your company imports/exports. This would allow me to have some sort of baseline. If (totally made up) your leather survived 1000 cycles before destruction, and mine survived 900 cycles or whatever, it's just something to compare against.

You stated you use Schoeller's stuff, but that you do not use their tags. The reasoning I am sure is because you don't want to pay them for that tag as other people and companies do. However, because there are no tags, can you confirm that it is being used in the process at production? Since you don't go to the factory, are you basically taking the factory's word that they are using it and not a cheaper material? There are many companies that have similar material that is very much the same and tests out the same, but are cheaper. You do pay for that name, you know...

I personally dont really want the tags sticking out of hte arms and stuff - I hate that. I guess I could have them put the tag inside the suit.

"Better than many" is a quote. Above you stated that it is now just entry to mid-level. Is it most of those? Is AStar only one of the few that are better than yours? You say not as good as others... Does AStar fit into that "others"?

Not busting your balls too much, but man, here's the drill. I am not worried about the leather as much as I am about the fact that you NEVER go to the factory, you NEVER go and verify the leather process, you NEVER go through and validate QC and how the suit is built at time of production. That's the thing. You are a good salesman, for sure and I appreciate you have something to offer the entry level guys.

The thing is now that you have stated you compete with entry level and mid level suits, I am less upset. I think that's important and not deceiving...

I looked at A-stars, and it was well made stuff. I have nothing bad to say about it, as opposed to some of the other brands I looked at. I think I do a couple things a little better than their lower end stuff honestly, but I wouldnt go as far as to say my suits ARE better. Without doing side by side, in depth study of each particular suit, I wouldnt make that claim . . . On the other hand, some suits, like those FS suits I looked at, I would definitely say mine are made better, from both a construction, and feature standpoint.

[jagr]

Your buddy Alex who I am sure cried and tattled to you to come on board implied what I stated to you that would happen.

Actually i sent him an invite a while ago.

I do that quite a bit.

Is that all right with you?

And i actually didnt even mention you.

Which in hindsight was something i should've done.

So get off your high horse.

[Lost1888]

Actually i sent him an invite a while ago.

I do that quite a bit.

Is that all right with you?

And i actually didnt even mention you.

Which in hindsight was something i should've done.

So get off your high horse.

Good looking out Jagr!

I just saw this thread and was going to do the same thing. Dave has every right to defend his suits and is obviously not hiding from the debate. Witch makes me more inclined to think of him before some other big company that could really give a f*ck. Personally I would rather support the little guy than the big guy. Hell maybe I might be able to help him with opinions and such to make his product better. Witch in the end will benefit me and any other person who ends up buying his suits. Not that I do track days or race but if I do in the future Spartan will be the first place I look. Besides he is a helpful SVR member and I will always support someone who helps out people with the respect they deserve.

[Moto-Brian]

Actually i sent him an invite a while ago.

I do that quite a bit.

Is that all right with you?

And i actually didnt even mention you.

Which in hindsight was something i should've done.

So get off your high horse.

Are you Alex? Nope... So... the comment wasn't for you. If you invited him, that's cool. He has every right to defend.

I also think that people need to understand things about how things are made and the process by which they are made. He says he designs them and they are "his" suits. Another guys posted a similar suit made in the same area of the world... He can offer "custom" as well...

Thing here is simple. Buy what you feel will work best for you. Just understand that it is fine to support the "little guy", but the big company that really doesn't give a F%ck as mentioned does in fact go and make sure things are being done as planned.

Saying they are your suit designs is fine. Saying they are built to your standards is something he cannot say as he cannot nor doesn't go to the factory with any regularity to make sure things are done correctly.

Few questions:

1) What is the leather process? How is the leather cured and where is it from? Is it cured in cow urine? Can he even tell? What visits have allowed him to make sure they are cured in a proper fashion?

2) Although there is a difference between Schoeller and other Keprotec style materials, there are also some companies that offer similar products that even when looking at them vs. testing can be mistaken for Schoeller's. However, much cheaper... Can he prove that the material is actually Schoeller?

3) CE approved armor is an easy to get standard. Where is that armor from and what are it's qualities? Meaning, does it incorporate memory foam in the suit? Is the armor thin plastic on standard foam? CE approved simply means that a sharp object doesn't pass through it. Well, it is one test... But, anything plastic can get CE approval. $10 sunglasses at Speedway have the same CE approval as a pair of Oakley sunglasses...

4) What are the QC standards for the factory and are they being met? Has he been to the factory to make sure that issues are being addressed and are implemented? Or, is he getting the changes done weeks after seeing issues and having to get ahold of the factory and get the changes then made? How fast can changes occur? How many trips are taken to make sure the suits are being built and assembled the way he expects?

5) The leather is touted as full grain, but there are grades of full grain. Has he been to the leather tanneries and checked the quality of the leather before it is finished? Has he been able to test them at a leather quality control facility that is QLL Certified? Not just someone that has an abrasion testing machine that can tell you how many times it rubs before tearing vs. someone else's leather... The company in comparison may be using thinner leather and using dual layers in certain areas common for impact. Same result, thinner everywhere else for a lighter weight suit...

Look, AGAIN... These are great suits and as he stated, but somehow gets not listed on his site - THESE ARE GREAT ENTRY LEVEL TO MID-LEVEL GRADE SUITS. Simple. Cool.

Fieldsheer isn't regarded as a top choice for suits or a top choice for leather/textile street gear. Top companies are as follows:

AStars

Icon

Hein Gericke

Joe Rocket

SS

SHIFT

Coretech

Teknic

Dainese

Taichi

Komodo

Arlen Ness

Fieldsheer

Probably more that I cannot remember, but you get the idea...

The other thing to consider here is that Dave goes to the dealer show to see the competition. As I stated earlier, most companies doing this have their 2010 stuff done and working on 2011 already. They also make NUMEROUS visits to factories in different countries to validate and get with suppliers for their materials. At that time, it is usually a time where they can see what the competition is doing. Ever wonder why companies come out with similar designs and patterns usually at the same time? They all see each others' stuff before it is released. You can visit the AStar factory or the Icon factory, etc...

It is also a deal where a lot of the top companies can have changes made when the riders (who typically develop the suits and safety components and processes WAY before release) find something that needs addressed.

The company I work for can actually make a change in production at any time and have in the past. The reason they can is because they use test riders and pro athletes to garnish feedback and that will put their product through the paces.

One thing that echoes every time with the "smaller guys" is the "I don't pay wages, pay for warehouses, pay for offices, etc..." Well, the bigger guys who don't give a shit as you all seem to say actually have pro athletes helping with development. You want guys like Matt Mladin, Roger Hayden, Josh Herrin, Neil Hodgson and many others testing and giving feedback to you rather than Bob who rides the Dragon or Chuck who races club events.

It isn't that those guys cannot give great feedback, but the pro guys and even test riders are at the track, on the road, testing and testing and testing. They have more seat time and have better input abilities than most people out there. They have only a few short months where they are not testing and the environment they test in is the most extreme and toughest you'll find. It helps develop a product a lot more than you think.

Here's an example. A company I know a buddy works for has a great boot they have had on the market. Had some serious criticism as to how it fit, how it worked on the bike, etc. The company then signs one of the most aggressive, most winningest riders in the world. First time wearing the boot was at a race at the beginning of the year. The company had the development team at the race taking notes. After the event, they had over 8 pages of notes to make the boot work better and perform better and be better at protecting the rider. They had numerous riders on board, but when the boot was redesigned, it became one of the best boots out there...

Another better idea is that AStar works with a LOT of racers. It's really all they do. They do this and take crash test suits and research what they did in that particular crash. In an effort for safer suits and safer processes, they take that info and make their suits better. I know the person who did this with AStar for over 5 years. The companies that can do this are not simply going to copy what others are doing and will lead rather than follow.

That payroll and that marketing budget and all those "extras" lead to great product. That marketing budget allows to sign riders that are not only going to validate a product, but it most cases, it helps that company make their product better.

I just hate when I hear the "big guy vs the little guy" BS speeches... Give some credit where it is due. Lost and Jagr - what bikes do you guys ride? The "Big guy who doesn't give a shit" or something from a smaller guy like MZ or UM? Is that SV better than the UM or MZ version?

What helmets do you guys wear? How about jackets? What about tires? What gas? What grocery store do you shop?

See where I am going? There's room for ANYONE and ANY type of product out there. Just don't sit and say that UM 650 is better than many twins on the market. Many includes a LOT of twins like Suzuki and Kawasaki. Don't say that Shinko race compound tires are better than many race compound tires used out there. That's a LOT of tires like Dunlop, Michelin, Pirelli, BStone.

Spartan suits are a great entry level or mid-level suit when compared to the others in it's class. Saying you do things a little better than even the AStar entry level suit is cool, but better is a tough measure. Many includes a lot of companies I listed above. When talking suits, that list is rather short and sure, maybe better than FS, but that's not many...

[DrummerDave]

Hey Guys, I've got more crash results:

One of my riders crashed 5 times in his Spartan suit this weekend.

1 highside, 4 lowides.

The suit still held together completely.

That makes 6 crashes in this suit.

He posted pics in my forum:

http://www.spartanleathers.com/Forums/index.php?topic=31.0

[Moto-Brian]

Motard crash I assume? On a mini no less in the wet??

Also, how thin is the leather where it was rubbed on the wet pavement? Looks awful thin and the color went away REALLY easily, huh? Looked like they held up which is cool. Again, great for an entry level suit.

Just not sure how a crash on a big bike on a road course would result in. Probably hold up well enough to protect, though.

[DrummerDave]

Motard crash I assume? On a mini no less in the wet??

Also, how thin is the leather where it was rubbed on the wet pavement? Looks awful thin and the color went away REALLY easily, huh? Looked like they held up which is cool. Again, great for an entry level suit.

Just not sure how a crash on a big bike on a road course would result in. Probably hold up well enough to protect, though.

I asked him that as well.

He says and I quote:

"Yes, we still have some more crashes to go.. I feel that the color has only been removed and the leather is roughed up, no real wear. That spot is padded and I am not even sore in that area! The suit held up great and did it’s job for sure!!! "

[DrummerDave]

Hey Guys,

Here's a writeup from Jim Marcum of Jim's Leathers in the Chicago area:

"I have been in the leather industry for over 22 years now. Having extensive experience in all aspects of racing leathers, I was asked to take a look at some new leathers coming to market.

After thoroughly examining these leathers I can with all confidence say that they are made of top quality materials ... from the leather ,to the armor to the lining & threads. Not only are they made of good stuff, but they are designed for comfort & saftey.

I will recommend these suit to anyone looking for a top quality suit, best of all at the price they are asking it seems that most riders could buy 2. Having a back up suit in a pinch always helps.

James Marcum

EXPERT LEATHER CRAFTSMAN"

[Moto-Brian]

Yawn...