U.S. Bankrupt?

[copperhead]

WOW lots of anti Obama in here. Is this a tea party convention or something, haha. I don't even know where to start with all of this fail but first of all we need MORE taxation, not less. The Bush TEMPORARY TAX cuts are expiring....This is in no way equal to Obama raising taxes. Look at the tax rates over the last 100 years and you will notice we have some of the LOWEST tax rates in our history. We had tax rates over 85% in the 40's and 50's. Notice how lowering taxes and spending more is equal to higher deficits? I am no economist but all of the discussions I have had with people seem to indicate that the national deficit is hardly a pressing issue right now as most of it is owed to China and they really can't do shit about it because of how our economies are tied together. Now don't get me wrong I am not in love with Obama as there a quite a few promises he has made that still have not come to fruition but I do believe that he is doing the best with what hes got. What we need to do is focus on renewable energy, education, and make things to sell instead of the military industrial machine that only benefits the top 3% of the population and shits on everyone else.

 

Renewable energy is expensive. Until this economy gets fixed we need cheap energy, then when we can afford it we can work on renewable.

 

Lower education is always a high priority. Higher education is out of control. Too many people are blowing thousands of dollars they don't have to get an education that isn't getting them past working at the local burger joint. When everyone has a degree in underwater basket weaving, it really does turn into just a scrap of meaningless paper. Which leads me into your next point...

 

To bring manufacturing back into the country we need more blue collar workers. Everyone in the U.S. these days sees themselves as a high paid cubicle jockey. These two things don't really add up so well. My point during the "stimulus" was that they are trying to throw money at infrastructure, and I don't really see too many out of work bankers going to work building roads.

 

And lastly, letting tax cuts expire raises taxes, there's no way around that. It may be indirect but it's still happening. I'm sure this well help out all the people that are barely scraping by on their mortgage, or all of the underemployed people out there.

 

Honestly, the only thing that can truly fix this economy is to force the baby boomers into retirement, then deny social security to anyone that has a pension or private retirement fund. Once the younger workforce is fully employed and the pork gets cut, things will start to right themselves.

[wagner]

Renewable energy is expensive. Until this economy gets fixed we need cheap energy, then when we can afford it we can work on renewable.

 

Lower education is always a high priority. Higher education is out of control. Too many people are blowing thousands of dollars they don't have to get an education that isn't getting them past working at the local burger joint. When everyone has a degree in underwater basket weaving, it really does turn into just a scrap of meaningless paper. Which leads me into your next point...

 

To bring manufacturing back into the country we need more blue collar workers. Everyone in the U.S. these days sees themselves as a high paid cubicle jockey. These two things don't really add up so well. My point during the "stimulus" was that they are trying to throw money at infrastructure, and I don't really see too many out of work bankers going to work building roads.

 

And lastly, letting tax cuts expire raises taxes, there's no way around that. It may be indirect but it's still happening. I'm sure this well help out all the people that are barely scraping by on their mortgage, or all of the underemployed people out there.

 

Honestly, the only thing that can truly fix this economy is to force the baby boomers into retirement, then deny social security to anyone that has a pension or private retirement fund. Once the younger workforce is fully employed and the pork gets cut, things will start to right themselves.

 

Would you like to run for office with me? I think we could fuck some shit up...

[Billiumss]

We are well beyond fucked. Corporate greed is killing this country. We need to stop outsourcing our jobs to other countries.

 

Not if but when there is World War 3, the USA will be screwed because a good part of manufacturing is done outside the USA, no more cheap clothes, electronics, etc since it all comes from China and other countries we will be at war with.

 

We have a lot of blue collar workers that need jobs more than ever, just look at unemployment. Sure there are jobs posted but if they were really hiring, unemployment would be down, its a political game companies are playing. I've heard from my financial guy that small companies are holding off on hiring full time to see what the govt will do on taxes, I've been hearing that for 2 years now, what a bunch of BS.

 

We need to have a flat tax for everyone but the rich will complain.

 

We also need to stop the BS of people being on death row for 20+ years. If you have 100% proof that a person killed someone then put them to death within 30 days. it costs the tax payers way to much money to have 10s of thousands of people on death row for all those years.

[Brandon]

You are an economics guru from reading Forbes,... yet we are the idiots?

 

I wasn't aware current taxes couldn't afford public service workers, thanks for the clarification. Your theory of taxing more until the budgets are met is genius. I'm sure there would be no negative repercussions from such a move......

 

I agree.

 

But the public sector is full of people who frankly are over paid and under perform, not everywhere but there are little to no incentives in the public sector for greater performance. So to keep expanding the social programs and bring back the tax rates seems counter productive.

 

Also how about the new stiumuls bill which saved the teachers, where does that money come from this? Other social programs, kiss food stamps good bye (which is fine) public housing, and a few other programs. NObama stole from the very people he promised to help, which is traditional. I mean we cant keep robbing Peter to pay Paul...

[Slowbalt]

Renewable energy is expensive. Until this economy gets fixed we need cheap energy, then when we can afford it we can work on renewable.

 

Renewable energy is only expensive because it is not subsidized by the government nearly as much as fossil fuels. Get the government to back it and the prices go down. The more people that adopt it, the cost in general goes down. The more it spreads, the more JOBS CREATED and the more people employed. It's a domino effect.

 

Lower education is always a high priority. Higher education is out of control. Too many people are blowing thousands of dollars they don't have to get an education that isn't getting them past working at the local burger joint. When everyone has a degree in underwater basket weaving, it really does turn into just a scrap of meaningless paper. Which leads me into your next point...

 

I don't know if I can quite agree with lower education always being a "high" priority but I do agree with most of the rest of this. I don't know a single person that has graduated college and then pursued and has a job in the same field as their degree. This could be addressed in many ways. I mentioned we need to "make things to sell" and that can be translated as creating "blue collar" jobs. These could be in the field of renewable energy, public works projects, or just simply not outsourcing so many jobs to other countries.

 

 

 

To bring manufacturing back into the country we need more blue collar workers. Everyone in the U.S. these days sees themselves as a high paid cubicle jockey. These two things don't really add up so well. My point during the "stimulus" was that they are trying to throw money at infrastructure, and I don't really see too many out of work bankers going to work building roads.

 

I don't think everyone in the US seems themselves as "high paid cubicle jockeys". Not even everyone that works in a cubicle thinks they are high paid. I am unsure of why you dislike cubicle jobs as they do tend to pay at least somewhat decent wages and isn't that what we want? More jobs that pay well? To go over the point you made about bankers not going into construction, I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. I can only really speak for Ohio but working for the state makes bank. The average job pays about 20.00 per hour. These aren't the highest rates but easily and comfortably liveable.

 

And lastly, letting tax cuts expire raises taxes, there's no way around that. It may be indirect but it's still happening. I'm sure this well help out all the people that are barely scraping by on their mortgage, or all of the underemployed people out there.

 

I understand as a result of the tax cuts going away, taxes for a small amount of the population will go up. They would be up whether Obama was president or Alf. They go up as no direct result from Obama and it is at least one of the few things that is in line with what he promised. If my tax rates go up that means I am making over 250,000 dollars per year (reported of course:)) If I am "barely scraping by on my mortgage" I need to get a more reasonable and sustainable home as I am living beyond my means. I hear a lot about small businesses will be hurting by this. This is a Republican "sneak attack" move as *some* business owners who report their income as personal income and make over 250,000 taxes will go up, they are still making over 250,000 dollars. In addition to this 98% of the population makes less than 250,000 AND people making up to 1 million dollars will still see lower rates than pre 2001 tax rates. What is wrong with this?

 

 

Honestly, the only thing that can truly fix this economy is to force the baby boomers into retirement, then deny social security to anyone that has a pension or private retirement fund. Once the younger workforce is fully employed and the pork gets cut, things will start to right themselves.

 

This does not sound like the best method as who is paying for all the retirees? Businesses or the government? Isn't this going to cause business to go over seas? Taxes to go up? Besides that, isn't "forcing" people to retire a bit strong language? I like the idea of encouraging individual savings by tax benefit. There are many things that may not "fix" the economy but will surely help it grow and become more efficient. Public works projects focusing on clean and renewable energy production, not just sustainable but over production, a plateauing of population growth based on education, a fair implementation of taxes, more efficient and effective government spending and less government and big business interfering with my life. The pork will never get cut so long as big business controls the power in this country. Its not Democrats VS. Republicans, its big business VS. The People.

 

 

We also need to stop the BS of people being on death row for 20+ years. If you have 100% proof that a person killed someone then put them to death within 30 days. it costs the tax payers way to much money to have 10s of thousands of people on death row for all those years.

 

The idea of "Government Homicide" for the fiscal benefit has been laid to rest a long time ago. It simply costs more to kill someone on death row than to keep someone in prison for life. We would have to WANT to do this regardless of cost and this to me is a bit maniacal. I am unsure of how anyone can certify this 100% proof of crime without at least making a .0001% chance of error. I would much rather change prisons into "correctional facilities" that actually provide rehabilitation, not just incarceration. Needless to say if we go down that road we need to reform the reasons why we place people in these institutions and also address why prison building is a current money making opportunity. Speaking of all these money saving talks why doesn't anyone ever bring up agricultural reform since that would have the absolute largest impact on healthcare spending and healthy living.

 

Discuss

[copperhead]

Renewable energy is only expensive because it is not subsidized by the government nearly as much as fossil fuels. Get the government to back it and the prices go down. The more people that adopt it, the cost in general goes down. The more it spreads, the more JOBS CREATED and the more people employed. It's a domino effect.

 

I guess you've not heard of the cap and trade that the dem's have been wanting for a while now. What's the point in trying to enact a tax on energy use when they could just stop subsidizing?

 

I don't know if I can quite agree with lower education always being a "high" priority but I do agree with most of the rest of this. I don't know a single person that has graduated college and then pursued and has a job in the same field as their degree. This could be addressed in many ways. I mentioned we need to "make things to sell" and that can be translated as creating "blue collar" jobs. These could be in the field of renewable energy, public works projects, or just simply not outsourcing so many jobs to other countries.

 

Why wouldn't K-12 education be a high priority? We are lagging behind other countries, we are producing people incapable of reading and simple math, yet this shouldn't be a large focus of ours?

 

As for outsourcing jobs - this is simple economics that goes along with what I've been saying. The U.S. population is so addicted to cheap goods that it's not possible to make things here when the minimum wage rate is climbing as high as it is and still make any attempt at competing with the Asian companies. It doesn't help that China has been manipulating the currency trade values for years in order to drive up their exports.

 

 

I don't think everyone in the US seems themselves as "high paid cubicle jockeys". Not even everyone that works in a cubicle thinks they are high paid. I am unsure of why you dislike cubicle jobs as they do tend to pay at least somewhat decent wages and isn't that what we want? More jobs that pay well? To go over the point you made about bankers not going into construction, I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. I can only really speak for Ohio but working for the state makes bank. The average job pays about 20.00 per hour. These aren't the highest rates but easily and comfortably liveable.

 

The New American Dream has changed from being able to bust your ass out there to buy a house and support a family into how you somehow deserve to have a desk job in a huge office building making a ton of money doing nothing so you can buy a mcmansion. THIS is what is destroying the middle class - everything thinks they are worth more than they are and aren't willing to settle for more blue collar jobs at average pay. The companies that are employing these people are the ones realizing they don't need nearly as many as these kinds of people and cutting the unnecessary jobs. These white collar workers who are now unemployed think that jobs like you are suggesting, such as public works jobs are below them and therefore would rather stay unemployed that go get burned by the bright sun that they aren't use to seeing while doing work requiring muscles that they never bothered to develop. Oh, and these jobs aren't .gov jobs, they always outsource to private construction companies, and once the work dries up the workers go on unemployment anyway so its still not a great gig. Our taxes are paying for this every step of the way. I'd also like to point out I've seen a couple roads get repaved this year that had been done less than 3 years ago and were already in perfect shape. What a waste of money.

 

I understand as a result of the tax cuts going away, taxes for a small amount of the population will go up. They would be up whether Obama was president or Alf. They go up as no direct result from Obama and it is at least one of the few things that is in line with what he promised. If my tax rates go up that means I am making over 250,000 dollars per year (reported of course:)) If I am "barely scraping by on my mortgage" I need to get a more reasonable and sustainable home as I am living beyond my means. I hear a lot about small businesses will be hurting by this. This is a Republican "sneak attack" move as *some* business owners who report their income as personal income and make over 250,000 taxes will go up, they are still making over 250,000 dollars. In addition to this 98% of the population makes less than 250,000 AND people making up to 1 million dollars will still see lower rates than pre 2001 tax rates. What is wrong with this?

 

Nope, sorry, these tax cuts affect EVERYONE that pays taxes. Period. Small example - the bottom tax bracket, 10% tax, goes away and everyone there moves up to 15%. That, and the child tax credit gets slashed in half.

 

http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/22/expiring-bush-cuts-affect-personal-finance-taxes.html

 

Now then, Obama and his blue Congress has every chance in the world to extend these farther down the road. By not making any attempt to do so, they are willingly increasing the taxes on everyone in this country. Including for those poor people that he sooooo cares about (but not so much that he doesn't mind taking away their food stamps LOL).

 

 

This does not sound like the best method as who is paying for all the retirees? Businesses or the government? Isn't this going to cause business to go over seas? Taxes to go up? Besides that, isn't "forcing" people to retire a bit strong language? I like the idea of encouraging individual savings by tax benefit. There are many things that may not "fix" the economy but will surely help it grow and become more efficient. Public works projects focusing on clean and renewable energy production, not just sustainable but over production, a plateauing of population growth based on education, a fair implementation of taxes, more efficient and effective government spending and less government and big business interfering with my life. The pork will never get cut so long as big business controls the power in this country. Its not Democrats VS. Republicans, its big business VS. The People.

 

The retirees would be paid for by their pensions or retirement plans. Just like they would be anyway. The ones that didn't bother with that would get SS like they would anyway. And yes, force was a bit of a strong term, encourage would be better. Lower the retirement age and convince the holders of pensions or retirement plans to allow early retirement with no penalty. This will open up many jobs for younger people who will work for a lower wage which in turn allows companies to open more jobs than they had before. This wouldn't affect taxes in any way. And with people being able to work cheaper, there is no reason why businesses would leave the country. There is plenty of workforce available here right now. This also would CREATE many more jobs in the service industry, since new retirees like taking vacations and rewarding themselves for all the years they put in to finally make it to retirement.

 

Oh, and as for all this talk of .gov funded clean energy - why not let the private sector tackle that one? Use incentives of tax breaks on companies willing to dive into the project, rather than taxing more the ones that don't. Also, focus on the states whose income comes from dirty power. The state of West Virginia employs a huge percentage of its population in the coal industry. As bad of shape the state is in now - imagine it tripling its unemployment rate over night if coal were to be banned for use.

 

 

 

 

The idea of "Government Homicide" for the fiscal benefit has been laid to rest a long time ago. It simply costs more to kill someone on death row than to keep someone in prison for life. We would have to WANT to do this regardless of cost and this to me is a bit maniacal. I am unsure of how anyone can certify this 100% proof of crime without at least making a .0001% chance of error. I would much rather change prisons into "correctional facilities" that actually provide rehabilitation, not just incarceration. Needless to say if we go down that road we need to reform the reasons why we place people in these institutions and also address why prison building is a current money making opportunity. Speaking of all these money saving talks why doesn't anyone ever bring up agricultural reform since that would have the absolute largest impact on healthcare spending and healthy living.

 

Discuss

 

Ag reform would be a painful process that no side would want to be responsible for. To be fixed it needs deregulated and subsidies for sitting around not working all year needs to go away. This in turn would allow the market to correct itself, although the first couple years would mean HUGE overproduction and crashing prices. Many farmers would be ruined and sell off their farms to megafarms, who in turn would be able to produce what is needed to keep a certain market price, while remaining competitive with the other megafarms. This situation would hurt a lot of workers yet it would

mean ending dependence on the .gov to fix market prices, reduce .gov spending (OUR TAX MONEY), and ultimately bring down prices that have been on the rise lately due to companies being able to truly be competitive, while still having strict quality control since the USDA will still be watching.

[copperhead]

Would you like to run for office with me? I think we could fuck some shit up...

 

Sure, just keep in mind I'm about as good behind the mic as good ol Joey Biden

[wagner]

Sure, just keep in mind I'm about as good behind the mic as good ol Joey Biden

 

You can be the brains and I will be the mouth. It worked for Bush right?

[thorne]

Things that need to happen for a turn around:

 

1. Quit collecting Social Security. It was a short term plan for a short term issue back in the 1930s. Never intended as a longterm solution to anything, and as such it has been doomed to fail. Allow tax payers to create their own retirement/investment accts with this money as proposed by G.W. Bush (shot down by congress I believe).

 

------------ Maybe

 

2. Allow people to pay their mortgage on a pre tax basis. This gives citizens a tax shield while also promoting people paying their mortgage, which seems to be quite the issue right now. Also gives incentive to mop up some of this housing glut/surplus we have hanging around, boosts home value.

---------------- Killer fucking idea.

 

3. No capital gains tax.

----------------------- I dunno if your making money on money you should have to be taxed but not as hard as its being done now

 

 

4. Cut welfare.

-------------------------- I disagree. You think crime is bad now

 

 

5. Spending freeze. Quit fucking spending. No more pork, no more projects. Stop.

------------------- Unfeezable.

 

6. Get out of debt with nations around us.

------------- Yeah

 

Some ideas good some bad

[Dave1647545494]

 

 

 

 

The idea of "Government Homicide" for the fiscal benefit has been laid to rest a long time ago. It simply costs more to kill someone on death row than to keep someone in prison for life. We would have to WANT to do this regardless of cost and this to me is a bit maniacal. I am unsure of how anyone can certify this 100% proof of crime without at least making a .0001% chance of error. I would much rather change prisons into "correctional facilities" that actually provide rehabilitation, not just incarceration. Needless to say if we go down that road we need to reform the reasons why we place people in these institutions and also address why prison building is a current money making opportunity. Speaking of all these money saving talks why doesn't anyone ever bring up agricultural reform since that would have the absolute largest impact on healthcare spending and healthy living.

 

Discuss

 

a bullet costs about a quarter stand those assholes in a line and I'll shoot every single last one of them for free

[copperhead]

You can be the brains and I will be the mouth. It worked for Bush right?

 

Worked great actually. Is it cool if we run as the pirate party?

[xlr8tn]

We are well beyond fucked. Corporate greed is killing this country. We need to stop outsourcing our jobs to other countries.

 

Not if but when there is World War 3, the USA will be screwed because a good part of manufacturing is done outside the USA, no more cheap clothes, electronics, etc since it all comes from China and other countries we will be at war with.

 

We have a lot of blue collar workers that need jobs more than ever, just look at unemployment. Sure there are jobs posted but if they were really hiring, unemployment would be down, its a political game companies are playing. I've heard from my financial guy that small companies are holding off on hiring full time to see what the govt will do on taxes, I've been hearing that for 2 years now, what a bunch of BS.

 

We need to have a flat tax for everyone but the rich will complain.

 

We also need to stop the BS of people being on death row for 20+ years. If you have 100% proof that a person killed someone then put them to death within 30 days. it costs the tax payers way to much money to have 10s of thousands of people on death row for all those years.

 

I agree....this is our number 1 problem. We don't make anything anymore. We're a country devoted to service industries. Back when I was in the 8th grade (1984) an economics teacher told us that eventually we'd all be sitting around a table selling insurance to each other. At the time it was funny......now it seems more like a reality.

[wagner]

Worked great actually. Is it cool if we run as the pirate party?

 

Does the pope wear a funny hat? God, Guns, Guts, And Glory will be the slogan for the Pirate party.

[Slowbalt]

I guess you've not heard of the cap and trade that the dem's have been wanting for a while now. What's the point in trying to enact a tax on energy use when they could just stop subsidizing?

 

I don't understand your point here. I never mentioned anything about cap and trade. Government should subsidize more of the desirable and renewable energy and move away from non renewable and dirty but I do not know if cap and trade is the best way of doing it. I'm not sold on it yet.

 

Why wouldn't K-12 education be a high priority? We are lagging behind other countries, we are producing people incapable of reading and simple math, yet this shouldn't be a large focus of ours?

 

I'm sorry for the confusion here. I am saying that k-12 has not had the priority that it should have. We are training kids to be lazy and have poor eating habits as well as other intellectually dishonest teachings. There should be more focus on k-12 and a reduction in the cost to go to a university so that it is available to everyone. The more we can educate the next generation, the better ideas and innovation we will see.

 

As for outsourcing jobs - this is simple economics that goes along with what I've been saying. The U.S. population is so addicted to cheap goods that it's not possible to make things here when the minimum wage rate is climbing as high as it is and still make any attempt at competing with the Asian companies. It doesn't help that China has been manipulating the currency trade values for years in order to drive up their exports.

 

While I do not want to compete for "lowest possible wage" against Asian companies we most definitely can make high quality products and pay a decent wage. Not everyone purchases the absolute cheapest product as there are other variables when you buy something. Minimum wage climbing as high as 7.30 an hour? This doesn't exactly seem "through the roof", haha. I made more than this cleaning up after people at AMC Easton. I guess I don't really understand what your point is here. You are pointing out a problem but not offering a solution. This is indicative of tea party thinking.

 

The New American Dream has changed from being able to bust your ass out there to buy a house and support a family into how you somehow deserve to have a desk job in a huge office building making a ton of money doing nothing so you can buy a mcmansion. THIS is what is destroying the middle class - everything thinks they are worth more than they are and aren't willing to settle for more blue collar jobs at average pay. The companies that are employing these people are the ones realizing they don't need nearly as many as these kinds of people and cutting the unnecessary jobs. These white collar workers who are now unemployed think that jobs like you are suggesting, such as public works jobs are below them and therefore would rather stay unemployed that go get burned by the bright sun that they aren't use to seeing while doing work requiring muscles that they never bothered to develop. Oh, and these jobs aren't .gov jobs, they always outsource to private construction companies, and once the work dries up the workers go on unemployment anyway so its still not a great gig. Our taxes are paying for this every step of the way. I'd also like to point out I've seen a couple roads get repaved this year that had been done less than 3 years ago and were already in perfect shape. What a waste of money.

 

You seem to have a very specific view of people in the US. I am not sure exactly where this comes from but just because this is how you see the US, doesn't quite make it so. The statements that you use are statements about the world and should be statements about yourself. You are generalizing an entire diverse population into one specific category of employment and worldview. This is ludicrous and simply not correct. While I agree with you that many people may "overvalue" themselves and under perform, this is simply not everyone. If I lost my job I would take what I could get and then look for better jobs making more money. This is logical. I lost my job and since I can't find another job that pays an artificially high wage, I will just do nothing. This is not logical. Since this is Columbus Racing I have a hard time with your statement about "one road being paved". I don't know where you live but I can't fill up my tank without driving through a construction zone.

 

 

Nope, sorry, these tax cuts affect EVERYONE that pays taxes. Period. Small example - the bottom tax bracket, 10% tax, goes away and everyone there moves up to 15%. That, and the child tax credit gets slashed in half.

 

http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/22/expiring-bush-cuts-affect-personal-finance-taxes.html

 

I completely agree that the tax cuts affect everyone. It would be silly to not acknowledge this but this is not the point. The point is how does the tax expiring affect the average person? the article you linked speaks to the tax cuts just vanishing but that is not what Obama is proposing. Here are some more articles on how it is planned (since nothing has been finalized yet)

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20100803/OPINION/100809947?p=1&tc=pg

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/27/stephen-hayes/so-called-wealthy-are-actually-small-business-owne/

http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2010/aug/08/johnny-isakson/isakson-warns-end-tax-cuts-will-result-historic-in/

 

Now then, Obama and his blue Congress has every chance in the world to extend these farther down the road. By not making any attempt to do so, they are willingly increasing the taxes on everyone in this country. Including for those poor people that he sooooo cares about (but not so much that he doesn't mind taking away their food stamps LOL).

 

Obama and congress would be making the best decision with the information that we have by not extending these tax cuts. I have been unable to find any source that says extending tax credits will hurt the average person and provides correct, check-able info. What congress and Obama have talked about it only stopping the tax credits for the high earners. They have entertained the idea of extending many of the other provisions in the Bush Tax Cut so to say that not extending it will "raise taxes on everyone" is not accurate.

 

 

 

The retirees would be paid for by their pensions or retirement plans. Just like they would be anyway. The ones that didn't bother with that would get SS like they would anyway. And yes, force was a bit of a strong term, encourage would be better. Lower the retirement age and convince the holders of pensions or retirement plans to allow early retirement with no penalty. This will open up many jobs for younger people who will work for a lower wage which in turn allows companies to open more jobs than they had before. This wouldn't affect taxes in any way. And with people being able to work cheaper, there is no reason why businesses would leave the country. There is plenty of workforce available here right now. This also would CREATE many more jobs in the service industry, since new retirees like taking vacations and rewarding themselves for all the years they put in to finally make it to retirement.

 

I think I saw this plan in a chain email last year. Every company that has a pension or retirement (not all of them do) facilitate it differently. Some are based on contributions only while some are based on stocks and shares of the company. This option doesn't directly create jobs as you are exchanging people, not adding to the jobs available. This "government takeover of retirement", to use conservative terms, would not fix the issue as many people who are eligible for retirement can't afford to retire due to depending on the system for care. This is also not assuming time and money spent to train all these recycled workers as well as the company in most cases would not be hiring people of the streets to fill in the newly vacated spots, they would promote people (which doesn't agree with the idea that this plan will cost business less and encourage hiring).

 

Oh, and as for all this talk of .gov funded clean energy - why not let the private sector tackle that one? Use incentives of tax breaks on companies willing to dive into the project, rather than taxing more the ones that don't. Also, focus on the states whose income comes from dirty power. The state of West Virginia employs a huge percentage of its population in the coal industry. As bad of shape the state is in now - imagine it tripling its unemployment rate over night if coal were to be banned for use.

 

I am hoping the private sector would take this on more. More government subsidies directed towards renewable energy would make R&D cost less for the private sector and help the spread of renewable energy. I never stated that we should tax companies more that do not adopt clean energy. Might be a good idea, actually. As far as West Virginia, lets focus on them. They are primarily a coal state because they have large amounts of coal available, obviously. Renewable forms of energy can be implemented ANYWHERE, that is part of the beauty of them. We could gradually switch those coal mines and refineries into wind, solar, thermal, and even nuclear. I also never stated we should "Ban" the use of coal. We do need it for now but lets get started in reducing our dependence on it. We have to start sometime, why not now?

 

 

 

Ag reform would be a painful process that no side would want to be responsible for. To be fixed it needs deregulated and subsidies for sitting around not working all year needs to go away. This in turn would allow the market to correct itself, although the first couple years would mean HUGE overproduction and crashing prices. Many farmers would be ruined and sell off their farms to megafarms, who in turn would be able to produce what is needed to keep a certain market price, while remaining competitive with the other megafarms. This situation would hurt a lot of workers yet it would

mean ending dependence on the .gov to fix market prices, reduce .gov spending (OUR TAX MONEY), and ultimately bring down prices that have been on the rise lately due to companies being able to truly be competitive, while still having strict quality control since the USDA will still be watching.

 

I now understand that you have no idea how the agricultural system works here in the US. There are HUGE subsidies on corn which is why it is in just about everything that we eat. The mega farms took over awhile ago and radioactive chemicals are used for fertilizer. The food we eat in the US is slowly killing us. We produce way too much meat which is why fast food restaurants came around in the first place. There are like 2 companies that own pretty much all the food production in the US. we need to get back to producing real, edible food that is high in nutrition as well as encourage people to eat it instead of cheap junk food(subsidized by the government).

[hpfiend]

There is a lot of thought and good points made in this thread but everyone is making it too complicated... it is not obama/bush/clinton or specific policies to blame. If anyone is to blame it is ourselves.

 

Our country needs more accountability (consequences for actions in all realms), practical education (actually have the skills or knowledge to be able to create or produce something tangible/marketable/ or of some intrinsic value), and less media focus (we have empowered them to their absurd levels of control)

 

let us not watch/talk/complain/point fingers but do and accept that there will be consequences for our actions (positive and negative), once again we will have to get our hands dirty literally and figuratively, and the media and our country will be brought back under control.

[Slowbalt]

a bullet costs about a quarter stand those assholes in a line and I'll shoot every single last one of them for free

 

But then who determines if/ when someone should die? Capital punishment has too much room for error. Your choice of words is already assuming the people are guilty and that is one of the major issues with the court system as it is. If you were the one on trial I'm sure you would want a fair chance to plead your case. Capital Punishment does have a *slightly* larger deterrent effect than just life in prison alone, but are the potential outcomes worth it? A person getting off when guilty is less of a concern to me than a person being killed that was completely innocent. No need for government sponsored personal retaliation.

 

 

There is a lot of thought and good points made in this thread but everyone is making it too complicated... it is not obama/bush/clinton or specific policies to blame. If anyone is to blame it is ourselves.

 

Our country needs more accountability (consequences for actions in all realms), practical education (actually have the skills or knowledge to be able to create or produce something tangible/marketable/ or of some intrinsic value), and less media focus (we have empowered them to their absurd levels of control)

 

let us not watch/talk/complain/point fingers but do and accept that there will be consequences for our actions (positive and negative), once again we will have to get our hands dirty literally and figuratively, and the media and our country will be brought back under control.

 

I can totally agree with this. Blaming Bush or Obama gets us nowhere because in the end Big Business is writing the checks for either one. We need to start from the ground up with governors, senators, and representatives to make any type of real change. The op gave the opening for a debate on politics and government and I like to take advantage of those opportunities when they are around. My views come from wanting the best for our county, our people, and our planet. If what I say is incorrect, I am happy to learn something new. If the tea party ran on real change, dropped Jesus and the anti Obama and anti reform sentiments, and proposed some good ideas for increasing government efficiency and lowering deficit, I would totally sign up.

[copperhead]

I don't understand your point here. I never mentioned anything about cap and trade. Government should subsidize more of the desirable and renewable energy and move away from non renewable and dirty but I do not know if cap and trade is the best way of doing it. I'm not sold on it yet.

 

 

 

I'm sorry for the confusion here. I am saying that k-12 has not had the priority that it should have. We are training kids to be lazy and have poor eating habits as well as other intellectually dishonest teachings. There should be more focus on k-12 and a reduction in the cost to go to a university so that it is available to everyone. The more we can educate the next generation, the better ideas and innovation we will see.

 

 

 

While I do not want to compete for "lowest possible wage" against Asian companies we most definitely can make high quality products and pay a decent wage. Not everyone purchases the absolute cheapest product as there are other variables when you buy something. Minimum wage climbing as high as 7.30 an hour? This doesn't exactly seem "through the roof", haha. I made more than this cleaning up after people at AMC Easton. I guess I don't really understand what your point is here. You are pointing out a problem but not offering a solution. This is indicative of tea party thinking.

 

 

 

You seem to have a very specific view of people in the US. I am not sure exactly where this comes from but just because this is how you see the US, doesn't quite make it so. The statements that you use are statements about the world and should be statements about yourself. You are generalizing an entire diverse population into one specific category of employment and worldview. This is ludicrous and simply not correct. While I agree with you that many people may "overvalue" themselves and under perform, this is simply not everyone. If I lost my job I would take what I could get and then look for better jobs making more money. This is logical. I lost my job and since I can't find another job that pays an artificially high wage, I will just do nothing. This is not logical. Since this is Columbus Racing I have a hard time with your statement about "one road being paved". I don't know where you live but I can't fill up my tank without driving through a construction zone.

 

 

 

 

I completely agree that the tax cuts affect everyone. It would be silly to not acknowledge this but this is not the point. The point is how does the tax expiring affect the average person? the article you linked speaks to the tax cuts just vanishing but that is not what Obama is proposing. Here are some more articles on how it is planned (since nothing has been finalized yet)

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20100803/OPINION/100809947?p=1&tc=pg

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/27/stephen-hayes/so-called-wealthy-are-actually-small-business-owne/

http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2010/aug/08/johnny-isakson/isakson-warns-end-tax-cuts-will-result-historic-in/

 

 

 

Obama and congress would be making the best decision with the information that we have by not extending these tax cuts. I have been unable to find any source that says extending tax credits will hurt the average person and provides correct, check-able info. What congress and Obama have talked about it only stopping the tax credits for the high earners. They have entertained the idea of extending many of the other provisions in the Bush Tax Cut so to say that not extending it will "raise taxes on everyone" is not accurate.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I saw this plan in a chain email last year. Every company that has a pension or retirement (not all of them do) facilitate it differently. Some are based on contributions only while some are based on stocks and shares of the company. This option doesn't directly create jobs as you are exchanging people, not adding to the jobs available. This "government takeover of retirement", to use conservative terms, would not fix the issue as many people who are eligible for retirement can't afford to retire due to depending on the system for care. This is also not assuming time and money spent to train all these recycled workers as well as the company in most cases would not be hiring people of the streets to fill in the newly vacated spots, they would promote people (which doesn't agree with the idea that this plan will cost business less and encourage hiring).

 

 

 

I am hoping the private sector would take this on more. More government subsidies directed towards renewable energy would make R&D cost less for the private sector and help the spread of renewable energy. I never stated that we should tax companies more that do not adopt clean energy. Might be a good idea, actually. As far as West Virginia, lets focus on them. They are primarily a coal state because they have large amounts of coal available, obviously. Renewable forms of energy can be implemented ANYWHERE, that is part of the beauty of them. We could gradually switch those coal mines and refineries into wind, solar, thermal, and even nuclear. I also never stated we should "Ban" the use of coal. We do need it for now but lets get started in reducing our dependence on it. We have to start sometime, why not now?

 

 

 

 

 

I now understand that you have no idea how the agricultural system works here in the US. There are HUGE subsidies on corn which is why it is in just about everything that we eat. The mega farms took over awhile ago and radioactive chemicals are used for fertilizer. The food we eat in the US is slowly killing us. We produce way too much meat which is why fast food restaurants came around in the first place. There are like 2 companies that own pretty much all the food production in the US. we need to get back to producing real, edible food that is high in nutrition as well as encourage people to eat it instead of cheap junk food(subsidized by the government).

 

Jesus fuck you spew a lot of incomprehensible shit. The only point you made that I care to reply to is this:

 

There are like 2 companies that own pretty much all the food production in the US.

 

So I guess all the friends I have that grew up on farms are all part of some big faceless company? Yeah....

[I Eat Rice]

So I guess all the friends I have that grew up on farms are all part of some big faceless company? Yeah....

 

I don't think this is what he is necessarly saying. When looking at the big picture the vast majority of farms in Ohio (refering to your friends that grew up on farms) are not very large farms thus not producing a very vast amount of goods when compaired to the farms that you see out in Iowa, Kansas, and the other parrie states. Less wood lots equal alot more land to farm on. I go out to Kansas to phesant hunt with my dad every year and alot of the field sizes out their are as large as some farms in Ohio. And we are only talking about one field that the farmer owns not counting all the others as well. Im not knocking on Ohio farmers because my grandfather recently retired from a life of farming and made a good honest living, but his farm was blown out of the water in comparision to the size of farms out west. I cant find the over all percent of national harvest that the western states make up, but I can promise you this its a great deal if not the vast majority, and Im willing to bet that of those farms out west a great deal of them are owned, managed, or affiliated with a couple of big names out that way.

[Slowbalt]

Jesus fuck you spew a lot of incomprehensible shit. The only point you made that I care to reply to is this:

 

 

 

So I guess all the friends I have that grew up on farms are all part of some big faceless company? Yeah....

 

Ok, now your side of the story makes a bit more sense to me. If you have one small example of something, you just assume that EVERYTHING else MUST be just like that. If you would kindly let me know what part of the links I posted or what I said was "incomprehensible" I could try drawing a diagram or explaining in more simpler terms for you. Ieatrice got it right. Your friends constitute an amazingly small minority of farmland in the US. What did I say that is incorrect? Please let me know so I can better understand how the US works.

[copperhead]

The problem with being a shitty troll is when you contradict yourself

 

P.S. nobody likes you, that was evident in the muslim thread

[I Eat Rice]

The problem with being a shitty troll is when you contradict yourself

 

P.S. nobody likes you, that was evident in the muslim thread

 

Unfortunatly I myself am having a hard time understanding this post. Haven't seen much contradiction in his points made and last time I checked in the muslim thread more and more people are on the side of its their constitutional right to have the mosque even if we don't compleatly agree with its placement... I love how when people become baffled or seem to not have much else to say on the topic at hand they turn to e bashing and name calling to in some way make themselves feel better, when actually it just makes you look like an idiot. This is why I try to stay out of debates that pretain to religion or politics, because no one ever wins and usually everyone loses... The main reason why I am in these discussions is because they are over the web so you can say whatever you want with little or no backlash and people usually don't judge you by how you act over the web, because it is usually far from how the person acts in real life.

[Slowbalt]

The problem with being a shitty troll is when you contradict yourself

 

P.S. nobody likes you, that was evident in the muslim thread

 

a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response

 

Nothing I have said is meant to be inflammatory however the same can not be said about yourself. I have added to the conversation by trying to explain not only my viewpoint but to also provide information as to why I believe the things that I do. All you seem to be able to muster is name calling and grade school remarks. You and I are alike that when we enter a debate, we feel that we are right. The difference is that I am not afraid of being wrong, this is why I am better than you at debating. I do it often and with many different segments of the population (both inside the US and out). It is becoming increasingly apparent that you do not. I am sure that you are a nice guy, just misled a bit and a bit misinformed. I do not blame you for this but I do blame you for not trying to find the truth when it is out there. Luckily I do not get my sense of self worth from online forums so don't worry, I'll be able to sleep soundly tonight.

 

If by "no one likes you" you mean that I have no problem debating a large segment of people on an issue even though I am far outnumbered, thanks for the compliment.

 

P.S I'm still waiting for what I have said that is incorrect and now I am also waiting for you to let me know of what statements I have made that contradict what I believe.

[Dave1647545494]

But then who determines if/ when someone should die? Capital punishment has too much room for error. Your choice of words is already assuming the people are guilty and that is one of the major issues with the court system as it is. If you were the one on trial I'm sure you would want a fair chance to plead your case. Capital Punishment does have a *slightly* larger deterrent effect than just life in prison alone, but are the potential outcomes worth it? A person getting off when guilty is less of a concern to me than a person being killed that was completely innocent. No need for government sponsored personal retaliation.

 

 

 

 

 

we have a court system

 

we could even put the executions on pay per view to cover the cost of the ammunition the pine box and the labor to dig the hole

 

and yes while the occasional innocent may get executed call it a sacrifice to the greater good when people stop commiting violent crime becuase they know if they get found guilty they are going to get shot at dawn

[Slowbalt]

we have a court system

 

we could even put the executions on pay per view to cover the cost of the ammunition the pine box and the labor to dig the hole

 

and yes while the occasional innocent may get executed call it a sacrifice to the greater good when people stop committing violent crime because they know if they get found guilty they are going to get shot at dawn

 

Again this has already been disproved. I can't even imagine what it would be like to know that I am innocent and be put to death by the state. Isn't this totally against the idea of life and liberty? At the very least if I am in prison i could be released. I will grant that the death penalty does have a *slightly* larger deterrent effect than life in prison but it is not nearly as much as the "perfect society devoid of all violent crime" that you speak of. Suicide bombers KNOW they are gonna die but still choose to commit crimes. Why are they not deterred? someone escaping punishment for a crime they committed> someone's life being ended by the government for doing nothing wrong. I used to be for the death penalty until I had to write a paper about it arguing for it. Once I started *researching* for this paper, I actually learned a thing or two. Try it sometime. While you are at it also research why there have been so many prisons built over the last 5 years and why that prompts communities to fill them. Getting the picture?

[V8 Beast]

Fact: The more you write in a post the less of a chance it has of being read. A one sentence post such as Wagers will be read by 99% of the people that open this thread.

 

Would you like to run for office with me? I think we could fuck some shit up...

 

Now lets take a look at Slowbalts post...

I don't understand your point here. I never mentioned anything about cap and trade. Government should subsidize more of the desirable and renewable energy and move away from non renewable and dirty but I do not know if cap and trade is the best way of doing it. I'm not sold on it yet.

 

 

 

I'm sorry for the confusion here. I am saying that k-12 has not had the priority that it should have. We are training kids to be lazy and have poor eating habits as well as other intellectually dishonest teachings. There should be more focus on k-12 and a reduction in the cost to go to a university so that it is available to everyone. The more we can educate the next generation, the better ideas and innovation we will see.

 

 

 

While I do not want to compete for "lowest possible wage" against Asian companies we most definitely can make high quality products and pay a decent wage. Not everyone purchases the absolute cheapest product as there are other variables when you buy something. Minimum wage climbing as high as 7.30 an hour? This doesn't exactly seem "through the roof", haha. I made more than this cleaning up after people at AMC Easton. I guess I don't really understand what your point is here. You are pointing out a problem but not offering a solution. This is indicative of tea party thinking.

 

 

 

You seem to have a very specific view of people in the US. I am not sure exactly where this comes from but just because this is how you see the US, doesn't quite make it so. The statements that you use are statements about the world and should be statements about yourself. You are generalizing an entire diverse population into one specific category of employment and worldview. This is ludicrous and simply not correct. While I agree with you that many people may "overvalue" themselves and under perform, this is simply not everyone. If I lost my job I would take what I could get and then look for better jobs making more money. This is logical. I lost my job and since I can't find another job that pays an artificially high wage, I will just do nothing. This is not logical. Since this is Columbus Racing I have a hard time with your statement about "one road being paved". I don't know where you live but I can't fill up my tank without driving through a construction zone.

 

 

 

 

I completely agree that the tax cuts affect everyone. It would be silly to not acknowledge this but this is not the point. The point is how does the tax expiring affect the average person? the article you linked speaks to the tax cuts just vanishing but that is not what Obama is proposing. Here are some more articles on how it is planned (since nothing has been finalized yet)

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20100803/OPINION/100809947?p=1&tc=pg

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/27/stephen-hayes/so-called-wealthy-are-actually-small-business-owne/

http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2010/aug/08/johnny-isakson/isakson-warns-end-tax-cuts-will-result-historic-in/

 

 

 

Obama and congress would be making the best decision with the information that we have by not extending these tax cuts. I have been unable to find any source that says extending tax credits will hurt the average person and provides correct, check-able info. What congress and Obama have talked about it only stopping the tax credits for the high earners. They have entertained the idea of extending many of the other provisions in the Bush Tax Cut so to say that not extending it will "raise taxes on everyone" is not accurate.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I saw this plan in a chain email last year. Every company that has a pension or retirement (not all of them do) facilitate it differently. Some are based on contributions only while some are based on stocks and shares of the company. This option doesn't directly create jobs as you are exchanging people, not adding to the jobs available. This "government takeover of retirement", to use conservative terms, would not fix the issue as many people who are eligible for retirement can't afford to retire due to depending on the system for care. This is also not assuming time and money spent to train all these recycled workers as well as the company in most cases would not be hiring people of the streets to fill in the newly vacated spots, they would promote people (which doesn't agree with the idea that this plan will cost business less and encourage hiring).

 

 

 

I am hoping the private sector would take this on more. More government subsidies directed towards renewable energy would make R&D cost less for the private sector and help the spread of renewable energy. I never stated that we should tax companies more that do not adopt clean energy. Might be a good idea, actually. As far as West Virginia, lets focus on them. They are primarily a coal state because they have large amounts of coal available, obviously. Renewable forms of energy can be implemented ANYWHERE, that is part of the beauty of them. We could gradually switch those coal mines and refineries into wind, solar, thermal, and even nuclear. I also never stated we should "Ban" the use of coal. We do need it for now but lets get started in reducing our dependence on it. We have to start sometime, why not now?

 

 

 

 

 

I now understand that you have no idea how the agricultural system works here in the US. There are HUGE subsidies on corn which is why it is in just about everything that we eat. The mega farms took over awhile ago and radioactive chemicals are used for fertilizer. The food we eat in the US is slowly killing us. We produce way too much meat which is why fast food restaurants came around in the first place. There are like 2 companies that own pretty much all the food production in the US. we need to get back to producing real, edible food that is high in nutrition as well as encourage people to eat it instead of cheap junk food(subsidized by the government).

 

85% of you started reading it, saw how long it was, and scrolled through the rest of that shit without even stopping... dont lie