sol740 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 If you don't wish to read the walls of text below, please skip to highlighted Endpost Summary to learn all you will ever need to know. So I completed the Utah course, and everything is sent. Just waiting for the checks to come back, and to get my permit. In the meantime I can have some gun-lust, tenting my fingers and giggling in anticipation of my upcoming purchase. Conveniently I will be receiving a rather large bonus from my employer within the next month, so this one is going to be like a freebie for me. Just cut a chunk of it out, and pretend it was never there. Rest goes into car-savings. None of my current firearms are too carry friendly(handguns are all full-size glocks), so that is going to be a major factor. Current leaders are(all .45s): Kimber Ultra Carry 2 (black) Kimber Ultra Tactical 2 (two tone black slide) HK45c (Never used, best friend swears by and has boner for) Colt Defender (It's a Colt) SA GI Micro (Don't care for grips but that is easily fixed) Glock 30 (Another Glock ! or ?) Obviously I'm having somewhat of a 1911-boner right now. I've always wanted a Kimber (Wilson or Nighthawk too), but never cared to spend more than $700 on a handgun, especially since my real home defense weapon is a 12 gauge. Everything I've read says that all of the 1911's can be super-reliable, not that they will be out of the box, except for the Wilson Combats out there, and I'm not willing to go that high. I know there's a break-in period and that I can expect some issues within 500 or so rounds. Even in worst-case scenarios requiring some smithing or warranty work. I also know I plan to feed it the same ammo once I dial in what works best. Knowing all that, they still top my list. The HK45c I have never fired or handled, my friend owns only HK's. He use to own several Glocks, which he sold to buy more HK's. As soon as I told him I would be carrying, he was pimping out the 45c. Everything I have read confirms his zeal. I hate to say the reason I still want a 1911 more, is because I find the styling of it, so appealing. Lastly the tried and true Glock. The only thing I have for (against?) the Glock 30 is that I already own two other Glocks. However, outside of familiarity, I'm not finding too many reasons to buy another besides housing more ammo, but that comes with a thicker grip. Anything I am terribly wrong about ? Please educate me, or give me your opinion. Also onto ... Endpost Summary: Boners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan9381 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 have you thought about the M&P 45c? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 have you thought about the M&P 45c? Hmmm, interesting. No I had not previously. I like the look of it. Is it a true DAO ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedfocus1647545489 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'm not really a Glock guy, but since you clearly are, what about a G36? Yeah it only holds 6+1 but it's really thin for a .45 and will have a familiar feel and operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGU Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Rob, have you taken your ohio CCW or are you planning on carrying on just the Utah? / off topic I love my glock 23 for carrying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'm not really a Glock guy, but since you clearly are, what about a G36? Yeah it only holds 6+1 but it's really thin for a .45 and will have a familiar feel and operation. That is nice, and I hadn't considered it either. I'm not sure if I'm a "Glock Guy" per se. My first handgun was a P.O.S HP .380 that seemed to jam as much as it fired. I made the "cheap" purchase at the time cause I was young and broke (and a total handgun noob). I immediately saved more money, sold it, and purchased my first Glock per my friend's high praise. Admittedly my range time is limited, but in the years since I have not had a single jam. Not one. However the lack of any external safeties does bother me slightly for carry purposes. Rob, have you taken your ohio CCW or are you planning on carrying on just the Utah? / off topic I love my glock 23 for carrying. I plan on keeping the Utah stand-alone as long as I can. The confidentiality part of the Utah permit is more up my alley. I am aware of my duties as an Ohio resident should I ever get pulled over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedfocus1647545489 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 However the lack of any external safeties does bother me slightly for carry purposes. I prefer it that way. Less protrusions and gimmicks equates a simpler, easier to carry package in my opinion. If you are well practiced and using your head, safeties should be a non-issue (though that doesn't apply to single-actions - I'd still want a safety). I've always been a 1911 fan and have had a few nice ones over the years. It has been my experience that cheap and reliable don't often go together with those. I was really close to picking up a Kimber Ultra-Carry but found that most 1911's poke into my fat a bit much when carried in my usual way. I could adjust my clothing or mode of carry a bit but I tried to get a gun that I was likely to keep carrying regardless of what I'm wearing that day. Also, while I love 1911's they can be a little more work to clean. It's nice to be able to get home from the range and have your gun clean and ready to carry in under 3 minutes. I'll say that after trying alot of different setups I ended up going with the Kahr P9 and have been very pleased. Some people don't care for the trigger, but I like it better than the Glock. It's no bigger than a traditional .380 but packs alot more punch. If the P45 was available at the time I probably would have gone that route because I prefer the round and it's only a hair larger. They now have the CW45 (cheaper version of the P45) if you want to keep cost down. Though it's not on your list it might be worth handling/renting one to see what you think of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan9381 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Hmmm, interesting. No I had not previously. I like the look of it. Is it a true DAO ? no, its striker fired, just like glocks... Why Glocks are NOT Double Action -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The problem: Glock claims their guns are "Double Action Only". They are in fact striker-fire, SINGLE action, no matter what Glock and the box says. This misunderstanding has annoying operational implications, and possibly dangerous defensive implications. Some Definitions: Single Action: Pulling the trigger does ONE thing : if the hammer has been cocked, it will release the hammer. Trigger pull is light, short, and consistant between first and subsequent shots. Example: Star Firestar Plus. Double Action: Pulling the trigger does TWO things : it will first cock the hammer if it hasn't been cocked, and then it will release the hammer. DA Trigger pull is longer and heavier than SA, but the user can cock the hammer first if they want to fire in "Single Action Mode." If the gun is semi-automatic, the first shot is DA, subsequent shots are SA due to the slide cocking the hammer for you, resulting in differing trigger feel as described above. Example : Beretta 8045, Hoekler and Koch USP series, etc. Double Action ONLY: Any DA gun which does not allow pre-cocking the hammer because the hammer won't stay cocked, and is often bobbed or hidden. No decock is ever needed, and trigger pull is consistent between first and subsequent shots. Example: AMT Backup Striker Fire: Rather than a hammer, an internal striker is cocked and released to fire. The striker is cocked by the first motion of the slide, and there is no way to decock other than squeezing the trigger. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So why aren't Glocks DA as claimed? Any "true" double action gun will cock the hammer by squeezing the trigger, which means you don't HAVE to cock the hammer manually before the first shot as with a single action. In contrast, a Single Action gun you have to cock the hammer before you squeeze the trigger. Glock claims to be "double action only" because : 1) You can't cock the hammer from a "hammer spur" externally, normally a sign that the gun is DAO. 2) In normal practice, pulling the trigger makes it go off, suggesting (falsely) that the trigger is cocking the hammer like a DA. 3) Trigger pull feels consistant between shots, suggesting DAO. All three are wrong because : 1) Glock can be (and is) cocked externally for the first shot, but its done by the slide motion involved with loading the first round into the chamber rather than an overt hammer. This is true of any other semi-auto gun -- unless it really IS a DAO gun, any semi-auto can be cocked by racking the slide if you wanted). 2) The gun IS in fact cocked for the first shot before the trigger is pulled, and stays that way once cocked until fired, just like any other SINGLE ACTION. The second shot is cocked by the first, etc. 3) Just as with any other NON-DAO semi-auto, Glock counts on the process of chambering a round to cock the gun for you between shots. Since you always fire in single action mode, the trigger always feels the same. Therefore, in practice, when you pull the trigger and it goes off, Glock wants you to think it's a DA, and not a SA which in fact is rarely loaded and still not cocked. If you were wondering why there isn't a decock lever on Glocks even though it's a wildly popular safety feature on any other good gun, it's because if you COULD decock the gun without it going off, you'd find that your gun is as good as a large paperweight at that point. You could simply bump the slide to recock the gun, but since Glock insisted it was DA, you won't know or think to do this. The bad news is, there IS a way the gun can get into that state, and it will most likely get there at the worst time possible. How can I prove my Glock is Single Action? There are a lot of Glock afficianodos who will SWEAR that their Glock is DA, until I have them dry fire twice in a row to similate a misfire. Remember what I said the definition of a DA gun is? DA cocks the hammer for you from the trigger, and will do so every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 no, its striker fired, just like glocks... Yes I was aware of the Glocks semi-DAO-ish-ness. That's why I asked about the SW. Thanks for providing more info on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan9381 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I prefer it that way. Less protrusions and gimmicks equates a simpler, easier to carry package in my opinion. If you are well practiced and using your head, safeties should be a non-issue (though that doesn't apply to single-actions - I'd still want a safety). I've always been a 1911 fan and have had a few nice ones over the years. It has been my experience that cheap and reliable don't often go together with those. I was really close to picking up a Kimber Ultra-Carry but found that most 1911's poke into my fat a bit much when carried in my usual way. I could adjust my clothing or mode of carry a bit but I tried to get a gun that I was likely to keep carrying regardless of what I'm wearing that day. Also, while I love 1911's they can be a little more work to clean. It's nice to be able to get home from the range and have your gun clean and ready to carry in under 3 minutes. I'll say that after trying alot of different setups I ended up going with the Kahr P9 and have been very pleased. Some people don't care for the trigger, but I like it better than the Glock. It's no bigger than a traditional .380 but packs alot more punch. If the P45 was available at the time I probably would have gone that route because I prefer the round and it's only a hair larger. They now have the CW45 (cheaper version of the P45) if you want to keep cost down. Though it's not on your list it might be worth handling/renting one to see what you think of it. soon enough im going to pick up a PM9. love it. prices have went through the roof on them though in the last few years...i recall it being like $600 when i first looked at them and last time i was at vances a couple weeks ago, i wanna say they were almost $850. fuuuuuuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan9381 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Yes I was aware of the Glocks. im just saying since a lot of people like to claim glocks are DAO. i love my M&P 9c. carry it daily, no safeties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 im just saying since a lot of people like to claim glocks are DAO. i love my M&P 9c. carry it daily, no safeties. Cool, do you carry with one in the chamber ? I guess that's what is bugging me about the no safety carry. I suppose I could carry without one in the chamber, and learn to to rack the slide as part of my draw. Though what if a hand is disabled ? Or am I simply being swept away in the nonsensical river of misfire stories out there ? I assume it's that, and it's just mental for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedfocus1647545489 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 soon enough im going to pick up a PM9. love it. prices have went through the roof on them though in the last few years...i recall it being like $600 when i first looked at them and last time i was at vances a couple weeks ago, i wanna say they were almost $850. fuuuuuuck. Yeah, they have gone up quite a bit. I think I paid around $650 for the P9 (~5 years ago) and the PM9 was about the same. Love the gun. I found followup shots to be difficult on the PM because I couldn't instinctively get a real good hold on it (same issue I had with J-Frame revolvers). The P's full grip length is just right for my hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedfocus1647545489 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Cool, do you carry with one in the chamber ? I guess that's what is bugging me about the no safety carry. I suppose I could carry without one in the chamber, and learn to to rack the slide as part of my draw. Though what if a hand is disabled ? Or am I simply being swept away in the nonsensical river of misfire stories out there ? I assume it's that, and it's just mental for me. Mine is chambered at all times and ready to fire. If I were carrying an SA it would be cocked (and locked) too. Dropping the safety lever on a 1911 is easy to incorporate into a natural draw, but chambering is not. I don't like the idea of needing to fumble with the gun if I truly feel it necessary to shoot a person. Stress will already be high in a situation like that and you don't want to turn into Barney Fife when seconds count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bruh Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Flock g29sf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Glock is kind of a mix between SA and DAO. When 'cocked' the gun is only about 90% cocked. When you pull the trigger, it cocks the additional 10%, and then fires = 2 actions, 1 trigger pull. While it might not be cocking the gun 100% when pulling the trigger, it is doing some of it. The best definition for it is indeed, DAO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan9381 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Absolutely one in the pipe. I keep my finger off the trigger until im ready to fire. If you dont touch it, it wont go bang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Absolutely one in the pipe. I keep my finger off the trigger until im ready to fire. If you dont touch it, it wont go bang. So simple, yet people are so scared of it. Do people worry about their car starting just because they left the key in the ignition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedfocus1647545489 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Glock is kind of a mix between SA and DAO. When 'cocked' the gun is only about 90% cocked. When you pull the trigger, it cocks the additional 10%, and then fires = 2 actions, 1 trigger pull. While it might not be cocking the gun 100% when pulling the trigger, it is doing some of it. The best definition for it is indeed, DAO. I think the main reason people debate true DAO vs. Striker fired is that if the gun doesn't go bang the first time with a striker you can't simply pull the trigger again for a retry. Some people seem to think that's an absolute deal-killer. I don't think I have ever had a round that didn't fire except junk-ass .22 ammo or a gun with too light a hammer spring and hard primered hand-loads, so I don't think it would affect me one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan9381 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 So simple, yet people are so scared of it. Do people worry about their car starting just because they left the key in the ignition? :nod: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 So simple, yet people are so scared of it. Do people worry about their car starting just because they left the key in the ignition? That's fair enough, if not entirely analogous. I've certainly never encountered any accidental (negligent?) discharges and I'm comfortable with all of my current firearms, and how they operate, though I've never carried any of them either. Like I said I think it's just mental right now. Hell even the thought of carrying a 1911 "cocked and locked" leaves me with a weird feeling. It's a feeling I know I'll have to get over, in order to increase effectiveness in a self-defense situation. Even though I'm 99% I'll never be in said situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan9381 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I will admit, before getting my chl i was like "no way am i gonna carry without a safety"...but the point i made earlier that austin quoute was actually something i think austin had said previously that made me come to my senses So yeah, austin quoted me quoting him. Score Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stangsn95gt Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Glock g29sf do this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 The best gun for you to get for CCW is the one that you will take with you everywhere you go. If you get teh awesomest gun evar and then it jabs into your side it will stay on your nightstand where its worthless. If you have friends with CCW's ask to borrow their setup for a while to see how it feels. One, you will be seeing what gun has a good weight/size, and also what holster has a good fit for you. I have an XD SC and a super shitty holster. I hated it so much that I NEVER carried until I picked up a Kel Tec P3AT and a pocket holster, now it goes everywhere with me except work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1veryfastvr4 Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Do people worry about their car starting just because they left the key in the ignition? +1 that made me chuckle, best thing ive read in a week or so ! now on to making the rest of the nation into thinking like this would be awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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