Draco-REX Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 BS. Some may be abuse, but others have bent their frames without the abuse. The bend only occurs when the axle hits the bumpstop. Essentially it runs out of travel and punches the frame upwards. You're not going to achieve that kind of hit driving the kids to school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirks5oh Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 The bend only occurs when the axle hits the bumpstop. Essentially it runs out of travel and punches the frame upwards. You're not going to achieve that kind of hit driving the kids to school. no one buys this truck to take the fucking kids to school. if a zr1 gets starved for oil because the owner is driving the car too hard at the track around long curves, and zr1's all over start blowing motors----do you expect GM to tell the owners they were abusing the car?? fuck off?? go buy another $20k motor?? good luck?? or they can back their product up because on the commercial they advertise that "america still builds rockets", and they show the car ripping it up on a road course. the same thing goes for nissan with the GTR launch control debacle. don't advertise all over the various car mags that the car can hit 60mph faster than your competitors, and then hang people out to dry when they test it out. when you plan on capturing marketshare (new buyers) by demonstrating to them that they can absolutely beat the fuck out of this (special) vehicle, you have to be prepared to deal with those who are going to push the envelope. if you can't warranty the car, then it had better be clearly defined what constitutes normal and abnormal usage before it becomes an issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillJoy Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 no one buys this truck to take the fucking kids to school. if a zr1 gets starved for oil because the owner is driving the car too hard at the track around long curves, and zr1's all over start blowing motors----do you expect GM to tell the owners they were abusing the car?? fuck off?? go buy another $20k motor?? good luck?? or they can back their product up because on the commercial they advertise that "america still builds rockets", and they show the car ripping it up on a road course. the same thing goes for nissan with the GTR launch control debacle. don't advertise all over the various car mags that the car can hit 60mph faster than your competitors, and then hang people out to dry when they test it out. when you plan on capturing marketshare (new buyers) by demonstrating to them that they can absolutely beat the fuck out of this (special) vehicle, you have to be prepared to deal with those who are going to push the envelope. if you can't warranty the car, then it had better be clearly defined what constitutes normal and abnormal usage before it becomes an issue THIS! :thumbup: KillJoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Kirk and Joe saved this from the mindless drones who accepted this horse shit. And for that, we thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furloaf Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Not really. Trophy trucks cost $100k+ for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye1647545503 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 So what you guys are saying is if you buy a supercar that is advertised as a fast car and go out and go fast in it and over drive the car and can't slow down fast enough and crash it that the maker should fix your f up for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirks5oh Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 So what you guys are saying is if you buy a supercar that is advertised as a fast car and go out and go fast in it and over drive the car and can't slow down fast enough and crash it that the maker should fix your f up for you? losing control of a car and smashing it into a wall is completely different from driving the car EXACTLY like the guy on the commercial does, or EXACTLY how the magazine articles (that car companies frequently quote in their commercials) do. when you play a commercial over and over again that you designed windshield wipers on a car to withstand 190mph, don't complain when someone actually drives the fucking car 190mph as car companies continue to push the envelope with performance, these things are going to happen---they can step up to the plate and fix it, or they can 'bitch out'. ford chose to 'bitch out' in my opinion----i'm someone who could easily be a perspective buyer of a (another) niche vehicle, just not a ford one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye1647545503 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Driving passed the vehicle capabilities is the same in ether case. Rule number 1 in performance driving is to know the limits of your vehicle and not over drive them. Rule number 2 is if you over drive them put on your man pants and take responsibility for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirks5oh Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Driving passed the vehicle capabilities is the same in ether case. Rule number 1 in performance driving is to know the limits of your vehicle and not over drive them. Rule number 2 is if you over drive them put on your man pants and take responsibility for it So when nissan makes a gtr with launch control, and you break the car because you use it just like they do on the commercial, you're just supposed to put on your 'man pants' and buy another $20k transmission? Rule #1 in sales--the customer is always right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 no one buys this truck to take the fucking kids to school. if a zr1 gets starved for oil because the owner is driving the car too hard at the track around long curves, and zr1's all over start blowing motors----do you expect GM to tell the owners they were abusing the car?? fuck off?? go buy another $20k motor?? good luck?? or they can back their product up because on the commercial they advertise that "america still builds rockets", and they show the car ripping it up on a road course. the same thing goes for nissan with the GTR launch control debacle. don't advertise all over the various car mags that the car can hit 60mph faster than your competitors, and then hang people out to dry when they test it out. when you plan on capturing marketshare (new buyers) by demonstrating to them that they can absolutely beat the fuck out of this (special) vehicle, you have to be prepared to deal with those who are going to push the envelope. if you can't warranty the car, then it had better be clearly defined what constitutes normal and abnormal usage before it becomes an issue The ZR1 and GTR examples are good, but I don't think they necessary apply here. Generally speaking, road courses are road courses, and there's not going to be any situation where GM is like, "Well, we showed the ZR1 ripping it up at Road Atlanta, which it can handle just fine. You took it to Laguna Seca, which exceeds the design limits." Some tracks are harder on cars in different ways, but I'm sure GM does enough testing on enough different tracks that they can feel confident that it can handle any of them. If you exceed the design limits and hit a wall, that's driver error. If you downshift instead of upshift and grenade the valvetrain, that's also driver error. There's no corners where they're going to say, "You can safely take that corner at 110 a few times, but reliability will suffer, so you should have known to only take it at 95." Which is exactly the case here. They might show the Raptor bombing its way through the desert, but they didn't show it taking that exact obstacle at that exact speed, and at some point you need to draw a line at what's reasonable to infer from their advertising. If this Raptor club went out and launched their cars at 100 mph over a 20 foot jump and destroyed their front suspension, you'd be right to point out that the commercials never showed anything that extreme, and that people would be dumb to think their trucks could handle it. Cruising along at 60 on a dirt road, totally in-line with their advertising. Hitting a giant ditch at 90mph? I'm leaning towards saying that Ford doesn't have an obligation here since they never explicitly said the truck could do that. The Raptor is in new territory. Off road trails are going to vary wildly, and Ford designed a vehicle that can take X abuse; what sucks for them is that X+1 or X+2 levels of abuse are just a few mph or a few good rains away, and they can't control how ballsy the owners are going to be. If they cave at the X+2 level, then the slippery slope starts, and before you know it the guys who took that 20 foot jump at 100mph are crying because the guys who only took at it 90mph got their trucks fixed under warranty and they didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitrousbird Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 LOL, I don't get some of you. - This is a niche vehicle, one that is supposed to be an ultimate factory offroad vehicle. This would be why they are selling these for so damn much money over a equivalent standard F150. - Why are idiots comparing this to a "trophy" truck? These users aren't doing what people are doing to "trophy" trucks. - Oh noes, they hit the bump stop. I've hit the bump stops hard in my unibody car with no damage. Many, many truck owners have hit their bump stops over jumps without damaging the frames of their plane-jane trucks as well. You don't hear of Jeep owners complaining about bent frames, and you know those guys abuse the shit out of their vehicles. - If this was a regular F150 and had the same issue, Ford has a bit more of a leg to stand on. But this is their performance off-road truck. They advertise everywhere with running it hard, but then seem to only warranty it for basic on-road use. - The damage is from a weak design in the frame. It just happes to be that you aren't pushing that weak design without running it hard. Why not just fix the design flaw, support your buyers, and make a GOOD reputation for the truck? I think Kirk's examples are excellent and get the point across well. Yes, some people were damaging these things through abuse - others damaged them through offroad USE, but not necessarily abuse. The fact there is a flaw and a solution to the problem that should really be addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye1647545503 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 So when nissan makes a gtr with launch control, and you break the car because you use it just like they do on the commercial, you're just supposed to put on your 'man pants' and buy another $20k transmission? Rule #1 in sales--the customer is always right no in that case from what little I read it was used as designed and broke, so the issues with nissan are valid. But as I said I did not pay attn to that to much as I dislike nissan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirks5oh Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Who here would buy a raptor after seeing all this? Not me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRTurbo04 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 i still would... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 :lolguy: at everyone in this thread who believes everything they see advertised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirks5oh Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4W0eobLLpk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88UjLPMW4Gw&playnext=1&list=PL62B7B93C042821F3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsyGOexjdQM don't make commercials like this and expect owners to drive the car like a pussy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoMeSomeFun Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsyGOexjdQM This video shows a Model T "offroading" does that mean it wont break when pushed to its limits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye1647545503 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Kirk you are confusing driving a car hard and driving beyond it's limits. Every car has a limit the reason race car drivers are pros it they know how far to push it, these customers didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirks5oh Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Kirk you are confusing driving a car hard and driving beyond it's limits. Every car has a limit the reason race car drivers are pros it they know how far to push it, these customers didn't. who defines the limits of a car?? clearly ford did not, and that's part of the problem here. i will agree that this is 'unchartered territory' as far as vehicles go---how many other pickups are out there similar to the raptor (don't even mention dodge power wagon)?? bottom line, the internet has revolutionized car advertising, car sales, and car enthusiasm in general. why do i mod my cars?? am i concerned about someone in my tiny town of 33k people being able to outrun me in a 25mph zone in the middle of our town?? no, i see someone on an internet website with a new GT500 with minimal mods running door to door with a c6z. this raptor story is all over the internet for everyone to see---and ford will lose more in future sales (i can guarantee it), compared to spending $20k to fix those 14 raptors, and then issue a general statement regarding abusing the truck when you build cars/trucks like these, 90+% of buyers are simply buying the car as a novelty. they will likely baby it, and never truly push it to the limits. its the 10% who WILL drive it near/at/above the limit that you have to deal with. ford has 'dealt' with them poorly, if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got-Boost? Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Read the owners manual (it's covered), people are stupid.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye1647545503 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 who defines the limits of a car?? clearly ford did not, and that's part of the problem here. I think the axle hitting the bump stops did that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsv8 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 There fords dont that explain enuf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaSSon Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Joe, did you see the size of that bump? I believe in the original Raptor Run damage thread they admitted it was a >12" "bump". That's a big frigging deal at whatever speed that was. I agree with Ford's explanation. The Runners should have done a pre-run and marked that cattle crossing, and they should have slowed down for it. BUT Repairing 14 Raptors is a relatively small expense for Ford. I think they should just straighten the frames for these guys and add an extra bright yellow disclaimer to the owner's literature. A "You went overboard and F'ed your truck, but that's what it's built for. This one's on us." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmuckingham Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Buy Raptor, remove certain parts that are key to the suspension, jump Raptor, complain my Raptor is a POS because i removed factory parts for shit aftermarket parts cause I am a cheap ass and wanted more lift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10phone2 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Who here would buy a raptor after seeing all this? Not me I wouldn't. This is also combined with the mess Ford has with their manual transmissions in their mustangs. Just when Ford is moving forward, they shoot themselves in the foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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