RedRocket1647545505 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Alright, I seem to see a lot of people talking about 'stopping' or 'knock-down power' all the time on here. Most of the time I choose to ignore it, and just allow people to believe what they want. I've read various articles over the years regarding the subject and have always found the subject of 'stopping power' quite laughable. It's as if people seem to think a person is going to get knocked off their feet when hit with certain rounds. Remember Issac Newton? For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. How many people have you seen get knocked-off their feet when they pull the trigger? :dumb: Anyways, here's an article to a pretty good research study that Greg Ellifritz did. He has multiple books that he has written through the years and is quite knowledgeable on the subject of shooting people. First, here's the full article if you want to read it, which I think you should: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866 Second, for the folks who say tl;dr, here's some cliff notes for you: -Handguns suck. If you want to actually incapacitate someone with the most efficiency, shoot them with a rifle or shotgun. Imagine that. -The .380 vs. 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 debate is completely stupid. All are so close in results that not a single one of them can be definitively declared 'better'. -Shot placement is key! Head shots = 75% immediate incapacitation. Torso shots = 41% immediate incapacitation. Extremity shots = 14% immediate incapacitation. In summary, pick a weapon you shoot well, and practice with it. Practice > bullet design > caliber. All day. Every day. -Most people don't want to get shot. About 1/2 of all the people shot in this study stopped their attack after just 1 shot. This includes people who weren't incapacitated. Mr. Ellifritz refers to this as a 'psychological stop', meaning, no matter what they were shot with (including .25, .22, .32 calibers!) they stopped immediately because they decided they didn't want to be shot anymore. For those that didn't stop with 1 shot, the normal carry calibers shined above the mouse guns. -On average, it takes around 2 shots to incapacitate a person, no matter the caliber. Anyways, I just thought I'd share that. You can draw your own conclusions, but in the end, it doesn't really matter what you carry. It just matters that the gun you choose works when you need it to, and you can put the bullets where you need them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 You know, the 10mm has so much ass kicking power that if you ever use one on somebody you will get called to a UN tribunal for possessing a weapon of mass destruction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpyro2 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 This absolutely backs up what my idea of a best end of world survival rifle/gun would be, .22 long. A .22 or a .50 cal. getting shot is getting shot and it will suck ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Definitely will read. I've taken my share of abuse here for stating that about being shot regardless of caliber and even round. Thankfully, I've never been in such a situation, but have no doubt that if someone were to invade my home, one of the last things they will be thinking about when the wife and I begin firing is what type of gun they are being shot with or what rounds I'm using. The only exception being our 12 gauge. I do believe if/when someone realizes the homeowner is firing 00 Buck they run faster :gabe: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87GT Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Definitely will read. I've taken my share of abuse here for stating that about being shot regardless of caliber and even round. Thankfully, I've never been in such a situation, but have no doubt that if someone were to invade my home, one of the last things they will be thinking about when the wife and I begin firing is what type of gun they are being shot with or what rounds I'm using. The only exception being our 12 gauge. I do believe if/when someone realizes the homeowner is firing 00 Buck they run faster :gabe: All they need to hear is you cocking your shotgun. Follow that up with you are going to get raped and they will probably leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 All they need to hear is you cocking your shotgun. Follow that up with you are going to get raped and they will probably leave. If the invader has any training at all, then this situation means you just revealed your position and intent. Element of surprise wins out. If the person is on meth, they won't give a fuck and will try to zerg rush you. Still bad for all parties involved. This is another argument that needs to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImUrOBGYN Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Take it from someone who's been shot. It sucks. However, I will say due to the adrenaline of the given situation at the time, I hardly felt it and if I'd been anywhere near the person who'd shot me (it was a .22) I would've ripped them limb to limb. I'd say the majority of a time just having a firearm is good enough. No matter the caliber. But, nothing is the best answer for everything/every situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 All they need to hear is you cocking your shotgun. Follow that up with you are going to get raped and they will probably leave. They won't hear it. If they hear it or me, I've failed. That won't happen. I'll leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 They won't hear it. If they hear it or me, I've failed. That won't happen. I'll leave it at that. This. Everyone wants to pretend they'll defend their home like the goddamn Terminator, cocking shotguns for dramatic effect and blasting baddies through walls. When I was robbed, I had my shotgun in another room and no opportunity to retrieve it. Gun was in my face instantly and there were 2 thoughts that went through my mind: 1) Is that gun cocked with his finger on the trigger? Yes? Ok, not getting it out of his hand 2) Do what you need to survive. Guy made away with a lot, but left me with my health. If I'd had my shotgun, there's a much greater chance I'd have been shot and killed or seriously injured. We all think we're great shots but just like you never truly know what's under the hood of the car next to you at the red light, you never know the capabilities of a home invader until you push them too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojoe Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 The 10/22, I love it, but can't justify grabbing it first. Just not enough stopping power. I'm thinking in the means of having to penetrate soft skin material, like house walls or common cars. I love it for hunting and not having to use a higher caliber, and the abundance of the ammo. I'm guessing since you posted this thread about 10 minutes after I posted what's quoted above, this is what you are referring to. Is there anything in my post arguable? You yourself chose a .308. On the hand gun side of things, I certainly agree with what you've posted. But in a rifle or a shot gun, the varied use of them provides a wide range for results. A .22 will go through on common house wall, both sides, and into another wall, but not out the other side. This may vary, depending on if it hits something in the walls. Stopping power, as I meant it, is simply what it takes to stop the person trying to harm you. Whether they are in a car trying to run you down, or drugged up and feel no pain. They won't all be head shoots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 I'm guessing since you posted this thread about 10 minutes after I posted what's quoted above, this is what you are referring to. Is there anything in my post arguable? You yourself chose a .308. On the hand gun side of things, I certainly agree with what you've posted. But in a rifle or a shot gun, the varied use of them provides a wide range for results. A .22 will go through on common house wall, both sides, and into another wall, but not out the other side. This may vary, depending on if it hits something in the walls. Stopping power, as I meant it, is simply what it takes to stop the person trying to harm you. Whether they are in a car trying to run you down, or drugged up and feel no pain. They won't all be head shoots. huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjjxlr8 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 More information on the subject... http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm And a good reference book... http://www.amazon.com/Stopping-Power-Practical-Analysis-Ammunition/dp/158160128X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojoe Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 huh? If my post in Howards thread had nothing to do with you posting this one, then just coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBaustert Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 They won't hear it. If they hear it or me, I've failed. That won't happen. I'll leave it at that. I keep mine chambered at all times :fuckyeah: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted December 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 If my post in Howards thread had nothing to do with you posting this one, then just coincidence. Coincidence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrodh Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 If the invader has any training at all, then this situation means you just revealed your position and intent. Element of surprise wins out. If the person is on meth, they won't give a fuck and will try to zerg rush you. Still bad for all parties involved. This is another argument that needs to die. (To copperhead) Do you carry? Do you carry with one in the chamber? If not your increasing your rate of failure and decreasing your reaction time. Similar idea. The whole shotgun cocking thing reminds me of hollywood, along with an abundance of cocking of semiauto handguns, etc. just for the effect. If I have a firearm in hand in a defense situation more than likely the first thing you will hear will be the bang. Least thats the goal. I keep a decent light on my HD guns and will only 'reveal' my position by lighting up my target if needed then following through with the intended purpose of the firearm. Im not here to scare anyone. If I have no other way to protect myself/family I have no need to scare anyone, just to take action. Back on topic however, great article. Reason why I am rethinking my choice of primarly HD round as .40 and changing to 9mm/45ACP with no .40 guns in my house. Don't like the round as much, 9mm is cheaper and interchangable and 45ACP will do if i really feel I need a little bit more gun around the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (To copperhead) Do you carry? Do you carry with one in the chamber? Yes and yes. Also, the Kel Tec I carry has no kind of safety at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87GT Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 My shotgun is loaded with 00 buck and Slugs at all times. No safety on but none in the chamber. It is ALWAYS very close to where I sleep. It will get cocked if someone invades my house. If they hear that and still try to attack me then it doesn't matter what I do they already have a goal. Not much I can do except point my gun at my door and pull the trigger. Lucky it happens to be in a small area where even if I miss the lead won't go outside of my house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Lucky it happens to be in a small area where even if I miss the lead won't go outside of my house. FYI the people who get it have switched from shotguns and subguns to the AR platform. The 5.56 round readily breaks up after passing through building materials, where pistol/shotgun rounds do not. I hope none of you are basing your 12g choice on "It won't penetrate 3 walls and hit my kid/neighbor/etc." That being said, there are some very very good self-defense shotgun loads available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87GT Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 FYI the people who get it have switched from shotguns and subguns to the AR platform. The 5.56 round readily breaks up after passing through building materials, where pistol/shotgun rounds do not. I hope none of you are basing your 12g choice on "It won't penetrate 3 walls and hit my kid/neighbor/etc." That being said, there are some very very good self-defense shotgun loads available. Honestly I feel an AR is overkill if used for "home defense". Also my 12g won't penetrate outside of my house because of how my house is built. I have planned out a flight path from my safe room. 12g and my 9mm hollow points won't make it outside. Also no kids or wifey right now so I don't have to worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Honestly I feel an AR is overkill if used for "home defense". I agree completely. The best thing this article shares is that it's about accuracy and shot placement, not the gun or load. The same holds true in just about everything. From Karate vs. Physical Size to Camera Gear vs Person using it. Personally I like a Home Defense Shotgun as a primary and a solid reliable handgun that one is comfortable and skilled at using. I don't care if it's a 30 round .22 magnum handgun , a 6 shot revolver or a 9mm pistol. Two in the chest from any of them is going to fuck someone up. Whether you have a .22 cal. round bouncing around the front of your skull, a hole through and through from a 9mm, or half your head and throat gone from 00 Buck, you're not likely going to survive let alone continue to be a threat to me. I only like the shotgun best as it's easy to handle, does pack power, they are cheap to buy and load and is much more difficult for a child to fuck and hurt themselves with than my handguns. Although I keep all very secure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stangsn95gt Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Y U NO 10mm Data Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stangsn95gt Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Y U NO 10mm Data Because pure decimation :dumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted December 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Y U NO 10mm Data Handguns, Bruh. Not WMDs. :megusta: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furloaf Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2406/9vs10mmjokelk3.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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