the Trayvon Martin case

[V8 Beast]

Austin is right guys. Unless Treyvon ran over and pulled him out of the car or initiated the situation Zimmerman is at fault. If he was in his car it sounds like he had the option to not get involved. As all of you CCW carriers should know the best move you can ever make (unless a life is in jeopardy) is to let the guys in blue do their job. If he would have paid more attention to his instructor his life wouldnt be a clusterfuck right now. Your phone 99/100 will be a more powerful weapon than your gun anyway.

[kshymkiw83]

Does. Not. Matter.

 

Actually it does. Florida has a Stand Your Ground law:

 

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

 

Section 3:

 

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

 

So as long as he has the right to be there, he has the right to stand his ground, which he did. If my head was being slammed into the concrete repeatedly, I would say that could cause great bodily harm.

 

And also:

 

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter0776/All

 

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

 

Once again, he was not doing anything illegal, following someone in public is not illegal. If he was attacked, and feared for his life....he can use deadly force. End of story.

[V8 Beast]

Actually it does. Florida has a Stand Your Ground law:

 

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

 

Section 3:

 

 

 

So as long as he has the right to be there, he has the right to stand his ground, which he did. If my head was being slammed into the concrete repeatedly, I would say that could cause great bodily harm.

 

They both have a right to be there. If a guy is following you around you will naturally be on the defensive. If this guy initiates contact with you then you are standing your ground against him. It doesnt flip because he is losing the fight. Zimmerman is not standing his ground if he decides to go against what the dispatchers say and confront the kid.

[Guest Spam]

Brian, what would you have done differently if you were in zimmermans shoes. From start to finish?

[kshymkiw83]

They both have a right to be there. If a guy is following you around you will naturally be on the defensive. If this guy initiates contact with you then you are standing your ground against him. It doesnt flip because he is losing the fight. Zimmerman is not standing his ground if he decides to go against what the dispatchers say and confront the kid.

 

From what I heard, and read in the Orlando Sentinel, which has corroborated with 2 or more Independent witnesses, Zimmerman had turned his back to Martin, Martin then came up from behind him and instigated physical contact with him.

 

Broke his nose, and started slamming his head on the cement. That would mean Zimmerman would be fearful for his life, and use deadly force, which is allowed. He doesn't legally have to try to retreat.

 

You should read the new notes: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

 

With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

 

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.

 

**EDIT** You are right I would be on the defensive. If said guy who was following me asked me to come over and talk to him, I would go talk to him. If he pulled a gun on me or started attacking me physically, then I would either pull my weapon, or confront him in a physical manner.

 

Zimmerman had every right to follow this kid, etc...

[V8 Beast]

Brian, what would you have done differently if you were in zimmermans shoes. From start to finish?

There is actually a thread on here from where I had to deal with something similar. I'll see if I can find it.

 

 

 

 

From what I heard, and read in the Orlando Sentinel, which has corroborated with 2 or more Independent witnesses, Zimmerman had turned his back to Martin, Martin then came up from behind him and instigated physical contact with him.

 

Broke his nose, and started slamming his head on the cement. That would mean Zimmerman would be fearful for his life, and use deadly force, which is allowed. He doesn't legally have to try to retreat.

 

**EDIT** You are right I would be on the defensive. If said guy who was following me asked me to come over and talk to him, I would go talk to him. If he pulled a gun on me or started attacking me physically, then I would either pull my weapon, or confront him in a physical manner.

 

Zimmerman had every right to follow this kid, etc...

 

Zimmerman can follow the kid.. He cant make any kind of contact be it physical or verbal. If he was in his car and got out of it he removed a barrier between the kid and himself. This is the same as opening your front door to confront someone that is not on your property. I have stayed away from the 15 different stories posted after the fact because they cant all be true. He may not be the instigator, the kid could have saw him get out of the car and thought Zimmerman was going to try and rob him... there are 100000000 what ifs. All I got is he got out of his car knowing the kid was suspicious enough the call it in and report it.

[LJ]

Broke his nose, and started slamming his head on the cement. That would mean Zimmerman would be fearful for his life, and use deadly force, which is allowed. He doesn't legally have to try to retreat.

 

 

Except that he instigated the incident. It would be like me just randomly start chasing you, you start punching me because of it, then I kill you.

 

See how ridiculous that is?

[Ramsey]

Who has more right to walk thru his own gated community? is investigating a suspicious person such a crime said person can then follow you and attack you and start smashing your head into the ground with out you defending your self?

[LJ]

Who has more right to walk thru his own gated community?

They had the same right. Martin was invited by a legal homeowner in the neighborhood.

is investigating a suspicious person such a crime said person can then follow you and attack you and start smashing your head into the ground with out you defending your self?

If someone was chasing me for what I believed to be no reason, I would confront them quite maliciously.

[greg1647545532]

From what I heard, and read in the Orlando Sentinel, which has corroborated with 2 or more Independent witnesses, Zimmerman had turned his back to Martin, Martin then came up from behind him and instigated physical contact with him.

 

Broke his nose, and started slamming his head on the cement. That would mean Zimmerman would be fearful for his life, and use deadly force, which is allowed. He doesn't legally have to try to retreat.

 

There's a lot of inference in there taken as fact. Zimmerman claims that he stepped out of his truck to check a street sign, and was getting back in when Martin came up on him from behind. AFAIK, no witness has corroborated this.

 

Someone on another forum made this map of the neighborhood. Note where Martin's body was found, on a sidewalk between two rows of townhouses. It's not exactly consistent with Zimmerman's story. Either Zimmerman followed Martin behind those buildings, or Martin stumbled a long way after being shot.

 

However, witnesses said that they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, then later they saw Martin laying on the ground and Zimmerman standing over him. Nobody saw who started the confrontation. Nobody saw the altercation from start to finish.

 

The "broken nose" story has been put out by Z's lawyer. The police only stated that he was bleeding from the nose. Personally, I think if his nose were broken there'd have been a picture leaked to the press of Zimmerman with two black eyes, which is usually what happens when your nose gets broken. "Slammed his head into the ground" is what Zimmerman is claiming, but it's uncorroborated by eyewitnesses. The police only noted that he was bleeding from the back of his head. For all we know, he fell during the scuffle.

 

We really don't know anything about the fight itself. We have one side of the story, and we have tiny bits of eyewitness testimony.

[Ramsey]

Except that he instigated the incident. It would be like me just randomly start chasing you, you start punching me because of it, then I kill you.

 

See how ridiculous that is?

The witnesses say he was leaving and martin confronted him.

[LJ]

The witnesses say he was leaving and martin confronted him.

 

It doesn't matter when he confronted him. It is all within the same incident. Maybe Zimmerman yelled something at him. Who knows, but he DID chase him with his vehicle, and on foot.

[greg1647545532]

The witnesses say he was leaving and martin confronted him.

 

I could be wrong, but I haven't seen anyone report that a witness has said this. I'd be happy to read a cite.

[kshymkiw83]

It doesn't matter when he confronted him. It is all within the same incident. Maybe Zimmerman yelled something at him. Who knows, but he DID chase him with his vehicle, and on foot.

 

If you saw someone you suspected of breaking into homes in your neighborhood, and when you asked if yo ucould talk to them, and they took off and ran, what would you think?

[LJ]

If you saw someone you suspected of breaking into homes in your neighborhood, and when you asked if yo ucould talk to them, and they took off and ran, what would you think?

 

I would call the cops.

[kshymkiw83]

I could be wrong, but I haven't seen anyone report that a witness has said this. I'd be happy to read a cite.

 

I gave the link to the Orland Sentinel Paper, in which it was published.

 

Again: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

 

From the article as well:

 

Police have been reluctant to provide details about their evidence.

 

But after the Sentinel story appeared online Monday morning, City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. issued a news release, saying there would be an internal-affairs investigation into the source of the leak and, if identified, the person or people involved would be disciplined.

 

He did not challenge the accuracy of the information.

[kshymkiw83]

I would call the cops.

 

Okay, he did. Now say, the cops say "stop chasing him" and you do and turn around and walk away.

 

Now say said person comes up from behind you and pucnhes you in the face, then slams your head into the sidewalk....what would you do?

[LJ]

Okay, he did. Now say, the cops say "stop chasing him" and you do and turn around and walk away.

 

Now say said person comes up from behind you and pucnhes you in the face, then slams your head into the sidewalk....what would you do?

 

I wouldn't chase him in the first place. I am not a known wannabe vigilante like Zimmerman. I wouldn't have gotten out of the car at all

[evan9381]

Everyone in this thread calling for Zimmerman to be arrested needs to go back to 3rd grade.

 

"INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW"

 

ring any bells ya dickheads?

[LJ]

Everyone in this thread calling for Zimmerman to be arrested needs to go back to 3rd grade.

 

"INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW"

 

ring any bells ya dickheads?

 

ummmm.....

[kshymkiw83]

I wouldn't chase him in the first place. I am not a known wannabe vigilante like Zimmerman. I wouldn't have gotten out of the car at all

 

Perfect. Being a "vigilante" isn't against the law. Protecting your neighborhood by patrolling it, isn't against the law. Confronting someone about what they are doing in said neighborhood, isn't against the law.

 

Zimmerman broke no laws, was doing nothing illegal, and had the right to defend himself, if in fact he was attacked by Martin, which witnesses are corroborating he was.

 

What this boils down to is the One Minute that no one saw. Which is "Who threw the first punch". Until that is known, both sides of the argument are null.

 

If Zimmerma threw the first punch, he can't honestly fear for his life.

If Martin threw the first punch, Zimmerman did nothing wrong.

 

In Theory this is how it is reported, that One Minute lapse went down:

 

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

 

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

 

Zimmerman began yelling for help.

 

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.

 

Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

 

One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

 

Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.

 

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

[greg1647545532]

I gave the link to the Orland Sentinel Paper, in which it was published.

 

Again: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

 

From the article as well:

 

Nowhere in there does it say a witness saw Martin go after Zimmerman.

[sol740]

 

Someone on another forum made this map of the neighborhood. Note where Martin's body was found, on a sidewalk between two rows of townhouses. It's not exactly consistent with Zimmerman's story. Either Zimmerman followed Martin behind those buildings, or Martin stumbled a long way after being shot.

 

Not really arguing any of your actual points, just bringing up that in most gun shot cases, being able to move a long distance before succumbing to blood loss/shock is more common than just dropping dead where you stand, save most heart, head, and spinal cord shots.

[LJ]

Perfect. Being a "vigilante" isn't against the law. Protecting your neighborhood by patrolling it, isn't against the law. Confronting someone about what they are doing in said neighborhood, isn't against the law.

 

Zimmerman broke no laws, was doing nothing illegal, and had the right to defend himself, if in fact he was attacked by Martin, which witnesses are corroborating he was.

 

What this boils down to is the One Minute that no one saw. Which is "Who threw the first punch". Until that is known, both sides of the argument are null.

 

If Zimmerma threw the first punch, he can't honestly fear for his life.

If Martin threw the first punch, Zimmerman did nothing wrong.

 

Intimidation

Harassment

Stalking

And yes, being a vigilante is against the law.

[greg1647545532]

Not really arguing any of your actual points, just bringing up that in most gun shot cases, being able to move a long distance before succumbing to blood loss is more common than just dropping dead where you stand, save most heart, head, and spinal cord shots.

 

Agreed. However, it doesn't jive with the witness testimony. That's all. Not saying it's not a possibility. The witness accounts could be incomplete or incorrect. But it certainly seems that the confrontation took place on that sidewalk.