Aluminator Swap Q's

[Drew2o2]

Variety of modular mustang options your kidding right. So there's a supercharger, turbo and nitrous or go slow. Seriously what are the n/a options for the modular..........

[Dr. Apex]

I've been looking at some threads on Corral, there are some guys on there making decent numbers on n/a setups that aren't bad at all, more than I plan on making. It's not what an almighty LSX will do but like Hal said it would be a bit wierd and more cost prohibitive initally.

[MattKatz]

First thought in my mind was LSx as well.....I wonder why though.

[Guest Hal]

Variety of modular mustang options your kidding right. So there's a supercharger, turbo and nitrous or go slow. Seriously what are the n/a options for the modular..........

 

Well, as someone who has been working with these cars specifically, for a long time, I can say that I am not kidding. Unfortunately you don't seem to have a significant amount of knowledge regarding Mustangs and the modular platform (which I never said was a requirement, just than an LSX is a dumb concept).

 

Ben has a lot of options for motors, that's just simple fact. Further, you just listed the four options for every motor as if that is supposed to insult the modular platform. You need to take into account that there are plenty of way to make a modular motor run just fine NA, although that is not the preferred method. Just like any motor, they are built for their intended purpose, many of them being for forced induction. Like any motor, you can make changes to the compression ratio, heads, etc... to increase NA power. They don't have the sheer size of an LSX, but neither do most motors.

 

Finally, I wouldn't list Mustangs in your signature if you really know this little about them. An LSX is not the answer to every performance question. As with any build, there are tons of different ways to do it.

 

Edit: I'm not trying to start some big argument, but I really know these cars. There is a lot of misunderstanding, obviously, which surrounds Mustangs and the modular platoform.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Hal

[Drew2o2]

I still find it odd to say adding a better motor in every single aspect is weird or retarded. And technically they do have the sheer size infact there a good bit bigger its just wasted on a poorly configured engine. First an lsx swap would give you an engine that was easier to work on because not only is it a simplier motor but it is smaller in actual dimensions even though it has a larger displacment, second which would really benefit a auto x/ road race car is the elimination of the hydro boost which can be replaced with a standard 94/95 booster. Normally I would check out here however the fact the your insisting I don't know my shit I figured I would further prove my point. I see your point saying the motor can be built however I feel its still stupid to do a full tilt build like this http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0810_ford_mustang_two_valve_engine_buildup/dyno_results.html to have what when converted to rwhp is comparable to a lsx with a baby cam without headers. That modular is fully built to the hill with forged everything and stage 3 livernois heads, that would probably run an enthusiast 10k to build. Point is i won't fuck my customers over trying to get them to drop that much money for such little amount of power when there are so many more options other than n/a modular power. Quite frankly I feel your a little out of line insulting my knowledge when I have stated true facts and you've just rode around on your high horse insisting you and your knowledge of boat anchors is first class. I will however keep you in mind if I get some dumbass around my shop who wants a 10k modular motor that makes less power than one with the on three kit will make for less than half fully done. I will not give you the pleasure of removing anything, I work on real pushrod mustangs all the time and do work on modular mustangs I just won't try to get somebody to try to polish a turd.

[Guest Hal]

I still find it odd to say adding a better motor in every single aspect is weird or retarded. And technically they do have the sheer size infact there a good bit bigger its just wasted on a poorly configured engine. First an lsx swap would give you an engine that was easier to work on because not only is it a simplier motor but it is smaller in actual dimensions even though it has a larger displacment, second which would really benefit a auto x/ road race car is the elimination of the hydro boost which can be replaced with a standard 94/95 booster. Normally I would check out here however the fact the your insisting I don't know my shit I figured I would further prove my point. I see your point saying the motor can be built however I feel its still stupid to do a full tilt build like this http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0810_ford_mustang_two_valve_engine_buildup/dyno_results.html to have what when converted to rwhp is comparable to a lsx with a baby cam without headers. That modular is fully built to the hill with forged everything and stage 3 livernois heads, that would probably run an enthusiast 10k to build. Point is i won't fuck my customers over trying to get them to drop that much money for such little amount of power when there are so many more options other than n/a modular power. Quite frankly I feel your a little out of line insulting my knowledge when I have stated true facts and you've just rode around on your high horse insisting you and your knowledge of boat anchors is first class. I will however keep you in mind if I get some dumbass around my shop who wants a 10k modular motor that makes less power than one with the on three kit will make for less than half fully done. I will not give you the pleasure of removing anything, I work on real pushrod mustangs all the time and do work on modular mustangs I just won't try to get somebody to try to polish a turd.

 

Ok, apparently you want to start an argument, that's fine.

 

1. An LSX is, when speaking about engine size as it affect performance and not just sheer dimensions (i.e., length x width x height), much larger than a 281ci engine.

 

2. Your insistence that an LSX is a better motor, in every sense, is absolutely moronic. They are two entirely different platforms and each excel in different areas. For example, an LSX is typically a stronger NA platform in a street car. A modular 4.6 or 5.4 is much better with a twin screw or rotary blower than an LSX, again on a street car.

 

3. Your point about eliminating hydro boost is not an issue in an LSX vs modular discussion. Why bring that up? Is that just to show you know what different types of systems the cars have?

 

4. NA my Cobra made as much power as my friend's Z28 with the standard bolt ons. Odd that my car, designed specifically for boost, would run comparable power to an LSX, isn't it?:dumb:

 

5. I don't think you know enough about Mustangs, given your LSX fanboy attitude, to actually point a customer in the right direction. Your insistence that the car be extremely modified (i.e., moving to a completely different generation of technology), for no substantial additional value per dollar spent, is sad.

 

6. Your last sentence further suggests that you do not know what you're talking about with modular Mustangs. You freely admit that they are not your expertise, they are however mine.

 

7. Not to bash Chad, but On3 has some of the worst reviews I have ever seen on boards like SVTP. Further, you're talking about a turbo car vs an NA car as if that will benefit your argument? Guess what, that comparison does nothing for this discussion (remember, we're talking about NA cars). If you want to bring up forced induction I can talk about grabbing a cheap 03-04 Cobra motor, throwing a 150-200 shot on it, and running huge power for a very low build price.

 

8. There is no reason to spend $10k on a modular build, unless you are in the habit of ripping people off or you just don't know where to get the parts. Ben's entire build can be done with modular parts for less than it can be done with an LSX. Not only that, the car will retain some of its original value as it will not have been modified to accept an engine it was never designed for.

 

9. I would build what a customer wanted, and have done so. There is no reason to be a complete fool and to suggest that one of these types of motors is the absolute best. That is short sighted as its best.

 

If you want to keep this up, I can go on all day. I've built LSX's and modular Mustangs, I'm not just some fanboy (like you) who will pick a motor based on my own incomplete feelings. Each car requires a different approach and there is no one answer. Anyone with half a brain knows that, and can usually apply a non-biased approach to a technical examination like this. You have displayed your affection for the LSX motors, and I'm sure you get stiff every time you see one, but they don't really fit what Ben has been asking for. If I were interested in a shop doing work for me, I would turn away from you in a heart beat simply due to your complete inability to work through the basic desires of a certain person for their car.

[Guest Hal]

Oh, and as an FYI, a Teksid motor and an LS1 weigh nearly the same. Any difference is negligible. But, Ben should obviously go with an LS1 and a complete platform change rather than sticking with an easier approach.

[Guest Hal]

If not I will be looking to sell the motor and do a 4v Aluminator swap(n/a version).

 

Anyone done this on a similiar year car?? It looks pretty straightforward, engine, ecu, harness, maybe new exhaust manifolds, flywheel and a couple little things on the engine but it should be fairly simple as it's just a Mach motor w/cobra heads in the same car. 1 thing I think I would like chaned is the comp ratio, should be a little higher, will Ford spec some slightly higher ration pistons?? Would like a little more power than stock.

 

Electronic throttle = no thanks me thinks, also you have to gut the factory oil pan/windage tray to clear my k-member, def not doing that as it was put there for a reason.

 

If I can spec a new setup for near the same price as FRPP or less even I'd go for that of course. Being a motor that came in the Mach's it should be a very easy swap. Flywheel change, can modify the engine harness(I'd just swap it out) and a few odds and ends it looks like.

 

Was hoping someone on here had some experience with this to get some first hand advice as info on the web is all over the place and nothing definitive.

 

This.......plug in cyl 8 blew out. I've never had any intention on doing anything to this motor and it still stands, why dump money in a crap, heavy iron block 2v when you can drop in a light aluminum 4v motor??

 

The aluminum block is the big thing for me, anything that can lighten the car is worth it's weight in gold to me, helps in all aspects of racing. I will still be doing mainly autocross/track days so trying to balance the cars weight is important. N/a does 2 things for me: Linear powerband and minimal heat generation(boost = heat), I do live in Phoenix now.

 

I don't know the exact budget as it's ongoing and I don't mind putting things off a bit to make sure it's done right, I'd love to supercharge the car, powerband like n/a and more of it made easily and I will consider it of course, but my #1 priority is reliability. I will be perfectly happy with 300-350whp or a little more if it's reliable. I've seen the Boss 302R cars at the track, they are devastatingly fast making virtually stock power so I know I don't need a lot.

 

I'm certainly open to options with this.

 

Here's what Ben has said he wants. There seems to be a theme of keeping things fairly straight forward and simple. Swapping out the "Ford garbage" and substituting an LSX does not really meet those requirements.

 

He appears to have an aftermarket k-member, seeing as he's worried about clearance with that. That would suggest that he already has a racing setup and would prefer not to change everything around for negligible gains. You may also notice he only wants a little more power than stock, something easily achieved on a budget with the 4v. Nowhere did he say he wants to make 500rwhp with a giant cam and a shot.

 

Supercharging is a possibility in the future. Guess what motor does really well with that, and was actually designed for a blower? That's right, the 4v out of the 03-04 Cobra! You have to consider future options, and ease of modification, when doing a swap like this. Sticking with the "Ford garbage" allows for more modifications to be done easier and on a lower budget.

 

Hopefully this will help you out as you look to build people's "dream" cars.

[Drew2o2]

Lmfao a modular better with a supercharger your right i forgot the gt500 couldn't even keep with the z06 so I'm sure it would rape the zr1. Your point number 2 is retarded lsx motors simply flow more air, boost or no boost more flow=more power. I only brought up dimensions because they is something about not being able to see your your exhaust manifold bolts being a bit well gay! Your point number 3 shows you know nothing a about driver feedback i wasnt trying to throw words out it was because that system is problematic and inconsistent. I just have one question dude where is this super sweet cobra o wait wasn't the your own car that you removed the turbos from because your fan boy ass specializes lmfao on n/a power and couldn't get the shit to run right so you sold it. I'm out of here, I'm done shit in tech cause your a fucking idiot any of the regular lsx guys would fall off a car laughing at the stupid comments you have made above. Infact I would be willing to bet you end up editing the things you have said. Also I like how you bash chads turbo kits yet he produces a affordable kit which allows people who usually couldn't afford the mods to participate in racing, tons have people have installed and gotten to run properly whereas you cant even make your own shit run right.

[appn88]

Variety of modular mustang options your kidding right. So there's a supercharger, turbo and nitrous or go slow. Seriously what are the n/a options for the modular..........

 

i think people need to quit crapping up the op's thread worried about opinions describe to him some options and leave your bull crap arguing out of it

 

that is all:dumb:http://www.columbusracing.com/banners/smilies/Dumb.png

[Guest Hal]

Lmfao a modular better with a supercharger your right i forgot the gt500 couldn't even keep with the z06 so I'm sure it would rape the zr1. Your point number 2 is retarded lsx motors simply flow more air, boost or no boost more flow=more power. I only brought up dimensions because they is something about not being able to see your your exhaust manifold bolts being a bit well gay! Your point number 3 shows you know nothing a about driver feedback i wasnt trying to throw words out it was because that system is problematic and inconsistent. I just have one question dude where is this super sweet cobra o wait wasn't the your own car that you removed the turbos from because your fan boy ass specializes lmfao on n/a power and couldn't get the shit to run right so you sold it. I'm out of here, I'm done shit in tech cause your a fucking idiot any of the regular lsx guys would fall off a car laughing at the stupid comments you have made above. Infact I would be willing to bet you end up editing the things you have said. Also I like how you bash chads turbo kits yet he produces a affordable kit which allows people who usually couldn't afford the mods to participate in racing, tons have people have installed and gotten to run properly whereas you cant even make your own shit run right.

 

1. Oh, now we're talking about a completely different generation of motors again. Would you like to remained consistent in your argument, or would your prefer to keep jumping around so you look even more foolish? Guess what won't be in Ben's car, any of the motors you mention in the beginning of that post.

 

2. Air flow is not the only variable which determines an engines ability to produce reliable power under boost. I'm glad you know that, given the fact that you advertise yourself as someone who deals with forced induction. The air flow under boost delivered from a rotary or twin screw blower does not function the way natural air flow does, and does not necessarily function best in an environment which produces the best flow for NA.

 

3. Odd, I don't like not being able to see the ground on the back of an LS1's heads. That must be gay as well. Wait, no, every car has some issues which make it annoying to work on. There are things I like and dislike about both motors, as far as work is concerned, and the manifold bolts have never concerned me one bit.

 

4. I don't care about driver feedback, my point is that you just posted something random as if it had to do with this argument. Should I post something about shifters now? I know, maybe I should post about mechanical vs hydraulic clutches as they pertain to driver feedback. Wait, no that would be pointless.

 

5. I sold my car because I didn't want it anymore. I got it running and then decided I didn't like it, so I changed things. BTW, when it was sold is was not NA. The car was a strong running ported Eaton car. Glad to see you can make dumb assumptions about the motivations behind what I did with my car.

 

5a. The car ran right on an Eaton, spray, NA, and turbos. I did my own research and built the car off a kit which I never should have bought. That has nothing to do with the engine or anything else, HP makes shitty kits. That being said, since you don't actually know me and likely never saw my car before I pulled the turbo kit, your opinion is pointless. There are very few people who actually saw the car at the end, because I no longer cared about it. But it's cool, you continue with your assumptions.

 

6. I haven't made a single "stupid comment" about the LSX platform. That being said, I'm sure any of the regular modular guys would "fall off a car laughing" at the things you have said about their beloved engine. Do you know why? It's because they are loyal to a brand and a motor and are unable to see the strengths and weaknesses of other platforms. They're exactly like you and your "regular LSX guys."

 

7. I have nothing to edit, because I haven't said anything stupid. You're the one who has argued that one platform is supreme in every way, not me. You're the one who fails to understand different types of systems and how they are engineered for different things. You're the one who fails to keep a consistent line in your argument (i.e., changing the different motor designs than the base argument). You're the one who came out and called Ford's design garbage, showing your bias immediately. IIRC, I said the concept of putting an LSX in a Mustang was retarded, not that the LSX is a bad platform. You seem to have taken that as a personal insult against the almighty bow tie.

 

8. I've already addressed your deeply flawed statements about my car and its turbo setup. You continue to show your ignorance there though, and I find it laughable. Chad's designs may be fine, I've never seen on in person. What I have seen is a multitude of threads on SVTP bashing him, his customer service, and On3 in general. I've never taken part in those, but given the sheer volume of complaints, I would not use that kit in an argument.

 

9. You still have failed to address the concerns about what Ben wanted, instead you just go on and on about how mighty the LSX is. Maybe one day you will look beyond yourself and your asinine assumptions to see that it's not your opinion that matters, it's the customer's.

[Guest Hal]

i think people need to quit crapping up the op's thread worried about opinions describe to him some options and leave your bull crap arguing out of it

 

that is all:dumb:http://www.columbusracing.com/banners/smilies/Dumb.png

 

Yeah, I've spoken my mind, I'll be moving along. The main point for Ben is that there are options out there, and for his goals and stated requirements, a modular motor would likely be the best option. From there, he is afforded plenty of additional options which I, at the very least, would be happy to help him with.

 

Hasta luego, hombre.

[Drew2o2]

I didn't fail to address shit I pmd him about options and when he told me he wasnt local I sugguested a place to order a longblock from this was all before you started this by being a duesche trying to insult me. Your failing to address what he uses his car for you say driver feedback isn't shit well to a road racer or auto xer this is critical. If I were you and got the shitty driver feedback from a cobra you failed at boosting that no one saw cause it was never sweet like you said i would hate the feedback the car gave me too failing to run. And last time i checked a zo6 and zr1 had lsx motors in them so you must have smoked so much crack that you really believe its a totally different family of motors. And I never tried arguing anything about chads turbo kits I said it was an option and you began to insult him when you said you have never once seen or used his product or dealt with him personally instead you go on a few words of people you never meet on a forum and then spread that when you have no experience with the company that's gay as fuck. Your main point is nothing you have proved nothing other than your ignorant.

[Guest Hal]

I didn't fail to address shit I pmd him about options and when he told me he wasnt local I sugguested a place to order a longblock from this was all before you started this by being a duesche trying to insult me. Your failing to address what he uses his car for you say driver feedback isn't shit well to a road racer or auto xer this is critical. If I were you and got the shitty driver feedback from a cobra you failed at boosting that no one saw cause it was never sweet like you said i would hate the feedback the car gave me too failing to run. And last time i checked a zo6 and zr1 had lsx motors in them so you must have smoked so much crack that you really believe its a totally different family of motors. And I never tried arguing anything about chads turbo kits I said it was an option and you began to insult him when you said you have never once seen or used his product or dealt with him personally instead you go on a few words of people you never meet on a forum and then spread that when you have no experience with the company that's gay as fuck. Your main point is nothing you have proved nothing other than your ignorant.

 

1. Notice I said different generations of motors. You know, the Z06, Zr1, and GT500 have different designs than what was being discussed in here. If you think that an LSX base design is the same between every car, you're dumber than I thought. I guess engineering isn't your strong suit.

 

2. I never got bad feedback (which btw was never part of my discussion and I told you that earlier), never failed at boosting it (they came blown, so your argument dies right there), and tons of people on here have seen that car in various forms. Try reading again, you might grasp what I said earlier in relation to this. That is, assuming you can get passed your obvious anger.

 

3. I said what I have seen about Chad's kits from a whole lot of different people. Those would be independently verifiable sources, sorry if you don't understand that. I guess you have some strange connection to On3, just like you do LSX's. That's fine if you do, but again you show an extreme bias which does not allow you to appropriately handle the issue(s) at hand.

 

4. "Your ignorant" is seriously your insult here? I have addressed each one of your concerns and the best comments you have are that I'm a "duesche," have "smoked so much crack," and that I am ignorant? Further, you continue to act like a middle school kid saying things are "gay as fuck." This is about technical things, not ridiculously poor, and incorrect, insults.

 

5. Since you have never once seen or driven my old car, nor have you dealt personally with me, how are you going to attack the car and what work was done to it? Are you just going to contradict yourself a little more, or what? I've already shown that I have a lot stronger grasp on reality and technical concerns than you do, and I have enough of a brain to realize consistency is required to form a coherent argument.

 

Look, if you want to continue to spew moronic statements and insults, go ahead and start a Kitchen thread. I would be happy to join you there, and your angry posts will fit right in as you do not seem to be able to control yourself.

 

Edit: Mr. Anger, I am done in this thread. I reported the post(s) so that mods can take care of whatever mess was made of this thread. If you want to continue your BS, please take not of my suggestion above. If you choose not to continue, fine by me.

[Dr. Apex]

Phew, you guys.......lol. Somehow I figured someone would mention the LSX in this conversation and it might start something, no big deal. This IS the internet, and CR!!

 

I can tell you I want something simple and reliable as stated before. I'm not the kind of person to go dump $10k in a car, go abuse it for 6mos and have it blow up. I plan on having this engine a while. An LSX is tempting of course but just not for me, nothing wrong with flirting with the idea.

 

My plan is a DOHC aluminum block, preferrably forged everything for durability sake, and I want some rpms, this 5k rpm redline is ok but I've heard these engines at 7k rpms and they fucking scream!! Now just have to start researching what combo of parts I will be using, meaning I need to get to a track where some guys are running setups like I'm thinking about and get 1st hand info.

[y2k2gt]

I spin my 2V teksid built setup to 7000rpm.

Right now I'm running 12:1+ compression and I'd guess my engine would be making close to 350rwhp n/a.

 

I wouldnt buy a mmr or Aluminator engine.

[Dr. Apex]

I spin my 2V teksid built setup to 7000rpm.

Right now I'm running 12:1+ compression and I'd guess my engine would be making close to 350rwhp n/a.

 

I wouldnt buy a mmr or Aluminator engine.

 

Damn, I've seen your car and that thing rolls the F out, never thought it would be a 2v......might look into it but still think I might be better off with a 4v, but again I do know the 2v's can make some serious power.

[BDHG940]

hal, 95% of the shit talkers bringing up On 3 turbo kits come from people that have never seen or installed one. There are certain people that you will never be able to satisfy and there will be negative things posted, its bound to happen. A majority of the customers running the kits are more than happy. Considering the amount of kits they have out there, your bound to run into issues.

[Guest Hal]

hal, 95% of the shit talkers bringing up On 3 turbo kits come from people that have never seen or installed one. There are certain people that you will never be able to satisfy and there will be negative things posted, its bound to happen. A majority of the customers running the kits are more than happy. Considering the amount of kits they have out there, your bound to run into issues.

 

Agreed, which is why I have never personally said a word in those threads. My only point has more to do with the internet, which functions as word of mouth on steroids. Due to the people who have complained, whether accurate or not, you have to be careful about what company you use in an argument. "Popular" opinion carries so much weight now, it's damn near impossible to turn the tide of discontent. Good luck with your continued operations.

 

P.S. As a more detached example, look at what people did to Horsepower by Herman. I liked that guy and his company, but some people got mad and did everything they could to ruin him. Once that happened, if you used him, in a positive way, in an argument, you lost all credibility to most people.