phil Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Every thread with a political view Tim feels the need to post 19 novels a page. Can't wait til this shit is over so we can stick him back in the photography section. November 8th can't come fast enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Taxes are a cost function and all investments are a risk/reward proposition. Taxes are not a punishment, they are a cost of doing business. When I sell a $100,000 order and the goods I sell cost 50k, I don't say "I made 100k and the manufacturer took away 50k". The cost of goods was a cost of doing business just as taxes equate to the expense of having a stable market to compete in. Want a zero tax environment? See how your business fares in Zimbabwe. My investments would still be successful less 7% more in taxes. I would still invest because my risk/reward analysis still makes sense. That's a joke right? Once you get to the consulting world you will realize that your perceptions of business owners is more dynamic than the "Job Creator" narrative you are being sold. Me and my wife would be a lot less busy if business owners worked as hard as you think they do. There is just as much entitlement at the top as there is on the bottom. If you can't even agree that a successful business makes a profit on our government's investment in infrastructure and the security to keep shit together, then this is not a worthwhile argument. whoa whoa whoa. obviously you are not a business owner or have no ability to run a successful business of any size. i've been a business owner since 05, and i work HARDER then all of my employees. when you become a business owner you wear the hat of every person from janitor to executive and in between. you understand that your life depends on you working and nobody is going to just hand you money. up until march when i moved here i got sick and tired or running a business, paying a shit ton in taxes and regulations that i must ad hear to. i said fuck it and sold out to a franchise. i've strictly been contracting and consulting for businesses now and i have never worked so less. for that reason alone i am opening a business here in ohio because i miss it but i will not be having employees anymore, i will not be hiring a maid service to clean my business twice a week, i will not be giving the job opportunity that i used to. if i need help i will contract it out and be done with it. if you are going to talk out of your ass at least have an understanding of the situation before you do. you are the reason this damn class warfare continues in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imstock2 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 soooo Ron Paul for president? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwishiwascool Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 if you are going to talk out of your ass at least have an understanding of the situation before you do. you are the reason this damn class warfare continues in this country. You are an idiot. I did not say YOU did not work hard. I said there are many business owners who do not work hard. You believe you "understand the situation" because your perspective is limited to your own experience within the sanctuary of your own individual business ownership? Just so I'm clear before I annihilate the thoughts dribbling out of your fingers, your argument is that ALL business owners work hard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ken, I often find myself agreeing with you, and I respect your intellect, but on this I strongly disagree. Progressive taxes are socialistic, of course so are any income taxes but if you're going to tax it must be fair across the board. Capital gains are a different animal, and progressives know this. We simply don't have the same skin in the game. The risk is taken by the investor. Though should I invest enough, than it is likely paying its fair share in opportunity that otherwise may not have existed. Sure, none of us so directly choose success over failure, but our actions over time lead to mathematical probabilities of success over failure when combined with understanding a desired market. While many of us choose to be construction workers, sales clerks, IT specialists, and what have you, without people investing in that infrastructure, those jobs may not exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 You are an idiot. I did not say YOU did not work hard. I said there are many business owners who do not work hard. You believe you "understand the situation" because your perspective is limited to your own experience within the sanctuary of your own individual business ownership? Just so I'm clear before I annihilate the thoughts dribbling out of your fingers, your argument is that ALL business owners work hard? oh ok, so you are going to make blanket statements covering all business owners and generalize about what they do and there thought processes, gotcha :dumb: save your typing its going to be more nonsense that will somehow try to prove your point but make you look incredibly more foolish. and i have quite a bit of range in my business owning background then my personal experience. i've picked the brains of a lot of wealthy and prosperous business owners to build a plan on how to properly run and company. the bottom line in this arguement , is you get what you put in and that goes with life as well. you want to be a business owner and not work hard, shame on you. you can always be left wondering what if i worked a little more on this avenue...... i know in what i do i have to do the leg work and will not rely on someone else to line my pockets. life is great when you have a smooth running business and runs like a well oiled clock, but when shit hits the fan you have to bare down and get it going again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam1647545489 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwishiwascool Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ken, I often find myself agreeing with you, and I respect your intellect, but on this I strongly disagree. Progressive taxes are socialistic, of course so are any income taxes but if you're going to tax it must be fair across the board. Capital gains are a different animal, and progressives know this. We simply don't have the same skin in the game. The risk is taken by the investor. Though should I invest enough, than it is likely paying its fair share in opportunity that otherwise may not have existed. Sure, none of us so directly choose success over failure, but our actions over time lead to mathematical probabilities of success over failure when combined with understanding a desired market. Sure, many of us choose to be construction workers, sales clerks, IT specialists, but without people investing in that infrastructure, those jobs may not exist. Oh I get it, and I'm not necessarily arguing my views. While I do believe in a progressive tax system I do not believe in taxing capital gains any more than they are. In fact, I think there should be incentives that reduce the rate further for investments in certain types of businesses. The reality that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate, however, is not represented in the oversimplification and this misrepresentation of our tax system in the above allegory. As for support of a progressive tax system, many of the taxes we pay are regressive (Payroll, consumption, excise) these taxes represent impact lower income people disproportionately as a percentage of their income. I've said before, I don't really care about poor people, but I do believe in a powerful middle class, this cannot be accomplished if the burden of investment in the marvels that make the US such a great place to start a small business are disproportionately propped on teachers, policemen, and mechanics. The progressive Federal Income Tax evens out some of that disproportionality, middle and lower get dinged on consumption and payroll taxes while the upper income earners get dinged with higher income taxes. Investors, like Romney, get the best of both worlds with incentives to re-invest his significant capital. The system is far from perfect but "flat tax" or "fair tax" setups are so far beyond catastrophic that I don't think I need to be the one to explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwishiwascool Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 oh ok, so you are going to make blanket statements covering all business owners and generalize about what they do and there thought processes, gotcha :dumb: save your typing its going to be more nonsense that will somehow try to prove your point but make you look incredibly more foolish. Hi FNG, Even people that disagree with me on here will tell you that I rarely look foolish. You made the blanked statement implying ALL business owners work hard, the operative word I used was "many". I am quite sure that hard working business owners, like yourself, are the majority. It would take me naming one of my current or former clients to disprove your argument. I own two businesses. Both are successful. I'm not "sick and tired" of it nor will we shutter our doors because of regulations or taxes. In fact, one of them will be doing business in Canada in 2013 where taxes and regulations are even higher. I understand that your business was likely blue collar (it obviously did not rely on your communication skills). I agree that most every blue collar business owner, whether a fast food franchise owner or general contractor, must work very hard to be successful. That is not always the case among white color businesses. Those successful brains you pick hire me to introduce and implement efficiencies that they do not see or in some cases to hire people so they do not have to do literally anything. Why do you feel the need to defend ALL business owners? Many consider it a mark of success to not have to work in the business and enjoy having the option to work on the business. Here's an exapmle: I have an idea for XYZ internet business. I pose the idea to an investor who puts in 100k. I hire a programmer and a marketing firm to create and introduce the product. I hire Tim to manage sales and operations. My CEO responsibility is as a figurehead and to discover the next opportunity, that business is now self sufficient. I'll pop in every once in a while to make sure everything is popping properly and that Tim is doing a good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Stop posting this shit lol. Clearly they picked the dumbest people to put on camera. This could be done either way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceGhost Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Every thread with a political view Tim feels the need to post 19 novels a page. Can't wait til this shit is over so we can stick him back in the photography section. November 8th can't come fast enough Dude there is the ignore feature that is useful for this, instead of bitching just use the feature. I have several listed and I never see their shit, and the funny thing is the forum reads fine. The really cool part is in Tapatalk on the iPhone, their shit is not displayed at all like they don't exist on the forum. You have no clue they even posted in threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Dude there is the ignore feature that is useful for this, instead of bitching just use the feature. I have several listed and I never see their shit, and the funny thing is the forum reads fine. It's apparent he has no credible counter points or lacks the interest to make them thus trying to slam me makes him feel better. meh..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceGhost Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 It's apparent he has no credible counter points or lacks the interest to make them thus trying to slam me makes him feel better. meh..... I have no problem with your posts other than watermarks on generic images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 The system is far from perfect but "flat tax" or "fair tax" setups are so far beyond catastrophic that I don't think I need to be the one to explain it. I've often heard proponents of progressive taxes citing the destructive nature of fair taxes and still have yet to have someone explain it to me, and I strongly desire to know, beyond the usual, "low income homes can't afford it". Don't buy a flat screen TV, iPhone, 22 inch rims, xbox, or other such goods and one may more easily afford food, shelter, and whatnot. The federal income tax steals from the public, then inefficiently spends that money on any number of wasteful expenses. The government cannot, and does not spend that money better than the earner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 So let me ask this, what would happen if every one "chose" to be owners and investors and the middle market collapsed. You are operating from a perspective that the middle class are second class citizens who have simply chosen not to be financially successful. won't happen, hasn't happened, never will. if people were to so driven to "chose" to do that they would have. don't fuck the have's in fear of the improbable. You realize that some people choose occupations for reasons other than money, right? Are you saying we should punish those who chose to be mechanics, policemen, firefighters, teachers, and in many cases doctors; because they've chosen to pursue passion rather than riches? yes and they choose those positions knowing the status of how a capitalistic market works. most of the above you listed actually do quite fine anyway so I hardly see the need for them to complain. if a cop is upset about Romney, then I'm sorry, you too could have what he has but chose not to because money wasn't as important to them. they got what they asked for. Are you saying your child's best teacher who is, at most, making 70k/year needs to "raise her game". Isn't this the antithetical argument? I'm saying if she's making $70k a year as a teacher she has plenty of potential to invest in the market just the same. Back when the wife and I made that collectively together, we did it just fine. Taxes are a cost function and all investments are a risk/reward proposition. Taxes are not a punishment, they are a cost of doing business.If you tax me the same on my market investments as you do on my standard W2 income say 14% vs 35% I'm more likely to reduce the risk I take with my money which will not lead to as much of a productive market. I'll do as you and balance out the numbers which may still mean investing but my choices and risks won't be the same as if I were realizing a capital gains advantage to factor in. That's a joke right? Once you get to the consulting world you will realize that your perceptions of business owners is more dynamic than the "Job Creator" narrative you are being sold. Me and my wife would be a lot less busy if business owners worked as hard as you think they do. There is just as much entitlement at the top as there is on the bottom. If you can't even agree that a successful business makes a profit on our government's investment in infrastructure and the security to keep shit together, then this is not a worthwhile argument. I've done consulting work and know that business owners pay more than their fair share of money and take bar far greater risks than the average worker they employ. They are entitled to greater reward, benefits and perks because of that. I"m sorry, we can agree to disagree on that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I said there are many business owners who do not work hard. ..........your argument is that ALL business owners work hard? Who cares. If there's a guy running a business that doesn't work hard, who cares. Isn't the little inside secret goal of everyone to work less and make more? Achieve that and it's called working smart. Let's not penalize the those that work smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwishiwascool Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I've often heard proponents of progressive taxes citing the destructive nature of fair taxes and still have yet to have someone explain it to me, and I strongly desire to know, beyond the usual, "low income homes can't afford it". Don't buy a flat screen TV, iPhone, 22 inch rims, xbox, or other such goods and one may more easily afford food, shelter, and whatnot. The federal income tax steals from the public, then inefficiently spends that money on any number of wasteful expenses. The government cannot, and does not spend that money better than the earner. So do you believe that the person you described represents the majority of lower income people? That is the narrative that the right wants you to believe. There millions more hard working lower income people that dream of not having to worry about making rent each month let alone the conspicuous consumption luxuries you describe than the welfare queen red herring above. Consumption taxes are inherently regressive. The Fair Tax is a national sales tax. The fair tax is regressive. If you believe in extreme supply side economics it might be the plan for you. I really don't have the motivation to argue against a regressive tax system... I'll leave you to what others say, positive and negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwishiwascool Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Who cares. If there's a guy running a business that doesn't work hard, who cares. Isn't the little inside secret goal of everyone to work less and make more? Achieve that and it's called working smart. Let's not penalize the those that work smart. I agree, I've been working toward it for years. I was just pointing out the silliness of your statement: As a business owner you know he already pays more and works harder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwishiwascool Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I had a post that evaluated where Tim and I stood, layed out demand vs. supply, discussed income inequality in the construct of our blooming plutocracy and reinforced this argument with charts and graphs. One little touch a random button on my drawing pad killed it. Maybe later. I have jobs to create. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I do not believe in taxing capital gains any more than they are. In fact, I think there should be incentives that reduce the rate further for investments in certain types of businesses. We agree. Holy shit..... As for support of a progressive tax system, many of the taxes we pay are regressive (Payroll, consumption, excise) these taxes represent impact lower income people disproportionately as a percentage of their income. I've said before, I don't really care about poor people, but I do believe in a powerful middle class, this cannot be accomplished if the burden of investment in the marvels that make the US such a great place to start a small business are disproportionately propped on teachers, policemen, and mechanics. We agree on the poor people comment. However, if your comment is that we are placing a huge burden on the middle class and not enough on the upper class then instead of screwing those that make more by charging them more, how about we raise the bar and not give the poor so many freebies and increase our expectations that they too begin to raise their game and give back. The system is far from perfect but "flat tax" or "fair tax" setups are so far beyond catastrophic that I don't think I need to be the one to explain it. I agree that a simple flat tax works but needs refinement to prevent too much burden on some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigOxley Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 We agree on the poor people comment. However, if your comment is that we are placing a huge burden on the middle class and not enough on the upper class then instead of screwing those that make more by charging them more, how about we raise the bar and not give the poor so many freebies and increase our expectations that they too begin to raise their game and give back. lettuce talk burdens: Defense budget...... Go! (i am in the military, i see all the wasteful shit we spend money on.) For example, just after Sept. 11, my national guard unit was activated. in the military's infinite wisdom they decided to send us to Maxwell AFB to supplement their security. This cost the tax payers over $300,000 in EXTRA expenses to send a 13 person team for 1 year (on top of our pay). they also sent a unit from out of state the supplement Wright-Patt's security, costing another $300,000 +/-. Wright-Patt is 15 minutes away from our base and would have not cost them anything extra to send us there. another example, I went to iraq last year. The military purchased us all brand new UNNECESSARY equipment to go on the deployment. my guess is the extra cost $3,000 per person. times that by a 40 person team, $120,000. i used none of the equipment. it is sitting unused in my spare bedroom. there was no effort to reclaim the equipment from me. this equipment is issued to every deployed person in my career field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Some info on Fairtax for those interested. http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=FAQs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) lettuce talk burdens: Defense budget...... Go! (i am in the military, i see all the wasteful shit we spend money on.) Can't contribute there as I'm not much up on military spending and what not. I can say that I have zero doubt money is wasted, thus another shining example of why I don't want the gov't trying to manage another dime of my money or even remotely trying to manage healthcare. Yeah...gov't run healthcare led by Obama...how's that for a fucking disaster in the making. Wake up America! I do however think it would be a mistake to not insure our military is primed and ready to go to war with solid equipment for when it's needed. Edited October 18, 2012 by TTQ B4U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 whoa whoa whoa. obviously you are not a business owner or have no ability to run a successful business of any size. i've been a business owner since 05, and i work HARDER then all of my employees. when you become a business owner you wear the hat of every person from janitor to executive and in between. you understand that your life depends on you working and nobody is going to just hand you money. up until march when i moved here i got sick and tired or running a business, paying a shit ton in taxes and regulations that i must ad hear to. i said fuck it and sold out to a franchise. i've strictly been contracting and consulting for businesses now and i have never worked so less. for that reason alone i am opening a business here in ohio because i miss it but i will not be having employees anymore, i will not be hiring a maid service to clean my business twice a week, i will not be giving the job opportunity that i used to. if i need help i will contract it out and be done with it. if you are going to talk out of your ass at least have an understanding of the situation before you do. you are the reason this damn class warfare continues in this country. Was yours a proofreading business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractor Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I dont want anyone messing with my investment tax rate. I spend more than 40hrs per week to make my investment gains so it is work. Sure to me it's fun work, but many others lack the ability to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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