Farkas Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20130619/BENEFITS06/306190024/Marine-petitions-White-House-revise-tape-test? After years of frustration with a military body-fat measuring system that experts have said is inaccurate, one active-duty Marine is petitioning the White House to force a change. Staff Sgt. Jeffrey Smith, an aircraft maintenance ground support Marine based in Okinawa, Japan, has launched a petition on Whitehouse.gov asking that the military find another way to measure the body fat of Marines who exceed weight standards for their height. The tape test involves determining the circumference of a service member’s waist and neck with a tape measure, then using the ratio to determine body fat percentage. In May, the Military Times publications published a story citing experts who compared the tape test body fat measurements for 10 service members to measurements taken with a hydrostatic dunk tank, considered among the gold standards for measuring body fat. The difference between the measurements ranged from nearly 12 percent to a staggering 66 percent, and in most cases the dunk tank yielded a lower result. “We continue to process out good military service members based on extremely inaccurate data,” Smith wrote in the online petition. “There are other ways to test for body fat that are more accurate.” The petition has earned slow but steady interest, with more than 370 signatures in just more than a week. Smith, a marathon runner who, at 5’11” and 211 pounds, has frequently struggled to meet tape test requirements, said he hopes to catch the eye of military leaders who have not been responsive to allegations that the tape test is ending the careers of good Marines. “How many professionals are going to say something before someone says, ‘Hey, let’s revisit this,’ ” Smith said. He said he has also reached out to experts directly for their help in pushing for a new system and is working to build support for the petition among Marine colleagues. The petition must receive 100,000 signatures by July 9 to receive an official response from the White House. This strikes a cord with me for some reason and I can't believe someone has the audacity to petition something like this. This is what's wrong with the American mindset. Instead of blaming yourself and taking responsibility for gaining weight and working to put it back off, you blame something else for being un-fair or inaccurate. Laziness at it's finest, IMO. ...Smith, a marathon runner who, at 5’11” and 211 pounds... I'm 5'10 and 165lbs on a good fucking day, after eating like a pig and working out for the past 3-4 years now, and I couldn't imagine being 211lbs... that is simply OVERWEIGHT. "Marathon runner"... riiiiiight. I would love it if they agreed to the petition and used an accurate method for measurement and he still didn't make it lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc1647545523 Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Perhaps you should serve in the Marines before being so critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Perhaps you should serve in the Marines before being so critical. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted June 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 What do you believe that would change in my mindset? He's got a hard job that I can respect serving the country. The point I'm getting at, is the laziness he's showing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmy43016 Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Perhaps you should serve in the Marines before being so critical. +1 I was a Marine. Did you know your own (OP) height and weight classifys you as overweight? I was 5'9" and 155 in bootcamp with very little body fat, but that was walking a razor edge on overweight. We had guys who were 20 pounds "over weight" with single digit body fat. They may have been given slack here and there, but on paper they are overweight and have caught some flack for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buelliganx1 Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 I dont know how it works in the Marines but in the Air Force your waist size has no correlation at all to your height so you get the maximum points for a 32" waist whether your 4' tall or 7' tall and if you have over a 40" waist you fail period. It's an asinine system developed to lower the number of people in the military and it's doing it's job. Unfortunately you now have maintainers that are more worried about getting their workout in than maintaining the aircraft and that WILL come back to haunt us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc1647545523 Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 (To Farkas) so, are you saying he's a lazy guy who runs marathons and keeps up his marine physical fitness requirements? It seems to me he's just asking for a fair measurement of body fat. Waist measurement is not a very good estimate, and if it's disqualifying otherwise fit servicemen and women, then it should be updated. To answer your question, I think if you went through what it takes to become a Marine, you might be a bit slower at calling a Marine "lazy" based on the information in the article. If he has low body fat, exercises regularly, and does his job well, I don't think he should be booted just because he's not an ectomorph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20130619/BENEFITS06/306190024/Marine-petitions-White-House-revise-tape-test? This strikes a cord with me for some reason and I can't believe someone has the audacity to petition something like this. This is what's wrong with the American mindset. Instead of blaming yourself and taking responsibility for gaining weight and working to put it back off, you blame something else for being un-fair or inaccurate. Laziness at it's finest, IMO. I'm 5'10 and 165lbs on a good fucking day, after eating like a pig and working out for the past 3-4 years now, and I couldn't imagine being 211lbs... that is simply OVERWEIGHT. "Marathon runner"... riiiiiight. I would love it if they agreed to the petition and used an accurate method for measurement and he still didn't make it lol. My buddy is 5'4, 165 lbs. Is he "overweight"? Yeah, I don't think so either. Perhaps you should serve in the Marines before being so critical. http://members.iinet.net.au/~quikachu/a/plus_infinity.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted June 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 +1 I was a Marine. Did you know your own (OP) height and weight classifys you as overweight? I was 5'9" and 155 in bootcamp with very little body fat, but that was walking a razor edge on overweight. We had guys who were 20 pounds "over weight" with single digit body fat. They may have been given slack here and there, but on paper they are overweight and have caught some flack for it. My understanding of the current BF measurement is that they do a neck and waist measurement and figure a ratio, currect? Do they factor height and weight in at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStowers023 Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 I'm 6'1 about 200lbs and far from being "Fat." The tape test is a very inaccurate way of measuring body fat, but it's quick and easy and that's why the military does it. If you work out regularly, you shouldn't have that problem, but some guys do have slower metabolism a which can make it harder, but that doesn't exactly mean their physical endurance is worse than someone that's 5'11 165. I know this from experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpyro2 Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 (edited) The test is terribly inaccurate(at least for the AF). Also a great way of getting people out like stated above. Edited June 26, 2013 by macpyro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDHG940 Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Tape measure method is obsolete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted June 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 (edited) My buddy is 5'4, 165 lbs. Is he "overweight"? http://members.iinet.net.au/~quikachu/a/plus_infinity.jpg Your buddy likely has a neck/waist ratio that's proportional and fits the scale. This guy starting the petition either has an ungodly skinny neck, or a larger waist than acceptable, or both. The test is terribly inaccurate(at least for the AF). On that note, the only people I saw kicked out for it though where in fact lazy. Tape measure method is obsolete. I already understand that. Edited June 26, 2013 by Farkas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 +1 I was a Marine. Did you know your own (OP) height and weight classifys you as overweight? I was 5'9" and 155 in bootcamp with very little body fat, but that was walking a razor edge on overweight. We had guys who were 20 pounds "over weight" with single digit body fat. They may have been given slack here and there, but on paper they are overweight and have caught some flack for it. Huh? According to this, the max weight for someone who's 5'10" is 192 lbs. Your own max weight would be 186 lbs. Farkas, if a Marine is overweight according to that chart, which is based on height, they must have a body fat of less than a certain percentage, based on age. The method they use is the neck/waist ratio, which has been proven scientifically to be horribly inaccurate. It works well for tubby people, it doesn't work well for muscular people. So yes, the military does kick out people who pass the objective physical requirements (run time, push ups, sit ups, pull ups), but who are overweight due to heavy musculature and fail the body fat test due to it being a shitty test. It should probably be changed. The skin fold test also isn't very accurate, because men tend to carry fat below the muscle. And water displacement tests require a tank, so it fails on account of it's not simple. There's really no good solution from a policy perspective. I've always advocated the "fatty fatty boballaty" test, in which someone who is technically overweight goes before an anonymous panel who vote on whether or not the person is a fatty. Because trying to reduce this to a science hasn't worked, and everyone knows, just from looking, who the real fatties are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImUrOBGYN Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 You've already proved yourself wrong, Farkas, with your own admittance. Your last post is a perfect example. If you're not questioning the inaccuracy of the test, what's the point of your post? Because that's the whole point of the article. Test inaccuracy. So, you can't really be arguing that's he's lazy still because that's simply unfounded and unwarranted and would be admitting that test inaccuracy and unfairness is ok to you. Not to mention you miss the whole point. So, perhaps it's time to admit you may've overstepped? I'm sure everyone gets your point. I'm just not sure if it's warranted in this particular instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Tape test LOL. Gawd I saw some seriously swoll monsters that could PT like a beast and failed the tape test. Definitely don't want them in the service! Tape test LOL :lolguy::lolguy::lolguy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 ...everyone knows, just from looking, who the real fatties are. I know he's not 100% stellar, but I wouldn't guess by looking at him that he can do what he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigOxley Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 National Guard guy here: Air Force USED to do this sort of measurement too. Guys my size, +6ft 200lbs, would struggle with this. Weight/PT standards are often key in position changes, promotions, deployments and in some cases discharges from the military. I understand his frustration. Air Force has moved to a simple waist measurement. Still not accurate, but it seems better IMO. Max waist for any male is 39in., which i think is fair, but it doesn't work 100% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoMeSomeFun Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Was in the Air Force too and if you had over a 32 inch waist they would dock 5 points for every inch over. So if you were 6'8'' like my friend it was just an unfair way to measure you. If you got a 70 you failed your PT test. They did change this but still don't have a perfect system. What most fail to see with these stricter PT standards and the military cracking down on ethical standards is that they simply cant afford to keep their service members so theyre purging people and cutting out the fat. So they build up these UIFs on you and eventually they have enough to not necessarily kick you out but ask you not to reenlist. With that said the good people stay in and the people who don't give a shit get kicked out pretty much 90% of the time. I haven't seen to many stellar military members get forced out, most were pretty much ready to get out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustlestiltskin Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Well this thread was a total backfire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Brian Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Tape test LOL. Gawd I saw some seriously swoll monsters that could PT like a beast and failed the tape test. Definitely don't want them in the service! Tape test LOL :lolguy::lolguy::lolguy: Same here I've seen people max out the PT test but fail tape so they got flagged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Dumbest thread of June? Contender for the year even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc1647545523 Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Well this thread was a total backfire... Don't act so surprised ... you knew from the second post that this thread was going to go south right out of the gate. After I read the first post, I said to myself outloud, "What this thread needs is for some fat guy to take a huge dump in it." No sooner than I had uttered those words did it come to me in a flash that I was that man. We all need to know our places here on CR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Don't act so surprised ... you knew from the second post that this thread was going to go south right out of the gate. After I read the first post, I said to myself outloud, "What this thread needs is for some fat guy to take a huge dump in it." No sooner than I had uttered those words did it come to me in a flash that I was that man. We all need to know our places here on CR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted June 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 Well this thread was a total backfire... :dumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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