Mid Ohio Track Day on April 25th and 26th

[jbot]

Only 1 photography class?

Wait, so you're tell me that you don't walk around with a camera around your neck like all the other Asians I see?

http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/1775056.html

your racism hurted my feerings.

[Disclaimer]

I sowwy

[street pilot]

If someone wants a private photographer next time let me know.

I have references and examples of work

I will not go out and shoot everyone next to some prick who thinks he owns the event and risk irritating the STT staff though.

Too bad its such a big pain to get a few killer shots of yourself on the track. Without competition the photog can charge obscene amounts of money and take shitty pictures. If a few of us get out there it keeps everyone honest, and provides the best product to the riders.

[Moto-Brian]

If someone wants a private photographer next time let me know.

I have references and examples of work

I will not go out and shoot everyone next to some prick who thinks he owns the event and risk irritating the STT staff though.

Too bad its such a big pain to get a few killer shots of yourself on the track. Without competition the photog can charge obscene amounts of money and take shitty pictures. If a few of us get out there it keeps everyone honest, and provides the best product to the riders.

I've been biting my tongue on all this photo stuff...

Here's the drill... STT uses an authorized photographer that gets paid by selling pics at the track and after the event via his site and CDs. You are MORE than welcome to come up and shoot pics. BUT... BUT... you cannot take them and sell them in an attempt to make money. It's simple as that.

Just like at the races - are those guys pricks because they are allowed certain access to certain points on the track and not you? Seriously...

You can come up and shoot your load off until your trigger finger is down to the bone. Just don't go and sell them to the people at the track and/or post a site to sell them out of.

Unless you email Monte direct (monte@sportbiketracktime.com) and ask if you can come up and shoot for that event if there isn't an authorized camera guy there.

It's really simple. If the guy got shitty with you, be a professional guy and tell him you are not shooting any pics that are going to be sold or be placed on a site for sale. They are personal pics and you have a lot of friends you know as Mid-Ohio is your home track. He can whine all he wants if that's really the case, but in the end he is the one selling pics and trying to make a living off doing it. He just wants to make sure you aren't undercutting him on selling shit out there when he is the only one allowed via STT to do so. Just like Press people being allowed to take pics from certain vantage points at the races...

[walther_gsp]

I wonder what happened to this guy. I was pleased with the photos I got when he was snappin' 'em.

He decided that it was going to be too much of a hassle for little to no gain this year with the economy. Sucks cause he's a good guy and a pretty good photog.

The upside is he sold me his trackbike REALLY cheap

[walther_gsp]

insert long post here

As much as agreeing with Lizard makes me feel all dirty, he's right. Monte's house, Monte's rules. People gotta remember that it is technically a private event, so capitalism, while awesome, does not necessarily apply.

If he says only his photog can sell pics, then thats the rule. Now, I think Monte ought to remind his photogs that personal pics are ok and not to be a dick about them, but up to him.

Personally, I liked Joe's pics better than the new guys. I'm still going to buy a few this time, but next time I might bring my buddy with his pro gear for kicks n grins.

That said, I still think the guy has a better business model than the track photog at Beaver (not an STT guy).

[Moto-Brian]

As much as agreeing with Lizard makes me feel all dirty, he's right. Monte's house, Monte's rules. People gotta remember that it is technically a private event, so capitalism, while awesome, does not necessarily apply.

If he says only his photog can sell pics, then thats the rule. Now, I think Monte ought to remind his photogs that personal pics are ok and not to be a dick about them, but up to him.

Personally, I liked Joe's pics better than the new guys. I'm still going to buy a few this time, but next time I might bring my buddy with his pro gear for kicks n grins.

That said, I still think the guy has a better business model than the track photog at Beaver (not an STT guy).

Joe's pics were awesome and there are a few other guys that do great pics. I was a little dissapointed in Jig's pics, but I really like the angles he chooses over Joe's. Now if we could get them together and do both, it would be awesome.

I will let Monte know, but understand something - too often, we have found guys selling pics on a website or forum that didn't have permission. They sell them cheap and undercut what STT is trying to provide. Jig's pics were reasonably priced and within the typical range you find from most bike photog guys. Car guys pay a SHIT load more...

I think it is fine to take pics and post here or anywhere you want. Just don't undercut someone and it will be fine. I was hoping other people took some good pics, but apparently nobody did...

[flounder]

Speaking of pics.. Lizard.. Get on Monte's ass about my buddy.. You have seen the work he does and he has attempted to contact monte without any luck.

[walther_gsp]

Lizard.. Get on Monte's ass

Seriously? Must you encourage that sort of behavior?

[Moto-Brian]

Speaking of pics.. Lizard.. Get on Monte's ass about my buddy.. You have seen the work he does and he has attempted to contact monte without any luck.

Best bet is that he needs to go to the track and talk one on one. I know he has a couple of guys lined up so, that may be why he didn't get back to him.

I'll talk to him today and try and remember to ask...

[vw151]

I've been biting my tongue on all this photo stuff...

Here's the drill... STT uses an authorized photographer that gets paid by selling pics at the track and after the event via his site and CDs. You are MORE than welcome to come up and shoot pics. BUT... BUT... you cannot take them and sell them in an attempt to make money. It's simple as that.

Just like at the races - are those guys pricks because they are allowed certain access to certain points on the track and not you? Seriously...

You can come up and shoot your load off until your trigger finger is down to the bone. Just don't go and sell them to the people at the track and/or post a site to sell them out of.

Unless you email Monte direct (monte@sportbiketracktime.com) and ask if you can come up and shoot for that event if there isn't an authorized camera guy there.

It's really simple. If the guy got shitty with you, be a professional guy and tell him you are not shooting any pics that are going to be sold or be placed on a site for sale. They are personal pics and you have a lot of friends you know as Mid-Ohio is your home track. He can whine all he wants if that's really the case, but in the end he is the one selling pics and trying to make a living off doing it. He just wants to make sure you aren't undercutting him on selling shit out there when he is the only one allowed via STT to do so. Just like Press people being allowed to take pics from certain vantage points at the races...

completely agree. This is completely reasonable. and what a great opportunity to whore a pic that yota took of me in turn 7 before I decided to throw my monster off the track.

I usually bring my camera and 300mm lens and hand it to friends to take pics when I am up there and when I'm up there I try and shoot. Sure we don't get as consistent a product as the official photographer and sure we sneak in and use the photo holes in the fence sometimes but I don't complain if they tell me to move and I certainly wouldn't try and sell the pics. I think the key is to remember that if you aren't the official photographer you are treading on someone else's turf so just be respectful. Further, be smart, if you do work something out with someone privately where you are selling the pics be aware that you are breaking the rules and keep it to yourself.

Edited May 6, 2009 by vw151

[fusion]

I've been biting my tongue on all this photo stuff...

Here's the drill... STT uses an authorized photographer that gets paid by selling pics at the track and after the event via his site and CDs. You are MORE than welcome to come up and shoot pics. BUT... BUT... you cannot take them and sell them in an attempt to make money. It's simple as that.

Just like at the races - are those guys pricks because they are allowed certain access to certain points on the track and not you? Seriously...

You can come up and shoot your load off until your trigger finger is down to the bone. Just don't go and sell them to the people at the track and/or post a site to sell them out of.

Unless you email Monte direct (monte@sportbiketracktime.com) and ask if you can come up and shoot for that event if there isn't an authorized camera guy there.

It's really simple. If the guy got shitty with you, be a professional guy and tell him you are not shooting any pics that are going to be sold or be placed on a site for sale. They are personal pics and you have a lot of friends you know as Mid-Ohio is your home track. He can whine all he wants if that's really the case, but in the end he is the one selling pics and trying to make a living off doing it. He just wants to make sure you aren't undercutting him on selling shit out there when he is the only one allowed via STT to do so. Just like Press people being allowed to take pics from certain vantage points at the races...

Most of us were just talking about the guy who was just shooting for some friends and got hassled by the prick of a photographer there.

But to play devils advocate, what's to stop someone from shooting photos and selling them? Are their signs that state something to prevent this? Do riders, guests and any public that go the track day required to sign something saying they won't do this?

[vw151]

Most of us were just talking about the guy who was just shooting for some friends and got hassled by the prick of a photographer there.

But to play devils advocate, what's to stop someone from shooting photos and selling them? Are their signs that state something to prevent this? Do riders, guests and any public that go the track day required to sign something saying they won't do this?

I don't think anyone is gonna stop you, you just don't get to be the guy who talks in the riders meeting in the morning and advertises your website. It's not like a legal matter. However if you were to show up as a roque photographer and compete with the official photographer against STT's wishes I'd say it would be pretty uncool.

I feel this is a good time to remember a solid quote from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Just remember to "Be excellent to each other" and we'll all be fine. Monte and all those folks are good people, try to play by the rules even if you probably won't go to jail as a consequence of breaking them. There are a lot of good reasons for having 1 official photographer or photography group at the event.

[fusion]

I understand that hence the "devil's advocate" part.

Unfortunately this photographer mentioned earlier doesn't sound like good people and his attitude seemed "pretty uncool".

Sure there are a few good reasons for having an exclusive "official" photographers group at track days and about zero for a single official photographer.

Here's an example I shoot some MMA (amateur and pro) and for one of the venues I'm the "official photographer". Now this a real event were people have to pay to go and watch and not a open practice where the public is welcome in and out. I don't give a shit who shoots with what photography wise from their seat or what ever vantage point they can get.

Frankly they can sell photos all damn day and it's not going to impact me one bit. Now the promoter might have an issue but that's another (legal) story altogether. Most of the time I even talk with folks that come in with decent gear and have some photog talk. At most there's one rule, don't use flash during the actual fights. If I ever find myself telling another photographer they can't shoot from a publicly accessible vantage point I deserve to my ass handed to me.

[Moto-Brian]

Most of us were just talking about the guy who was just shooting for some friends and got hassled by the prick of a photographer there.

But to play devils advocate, what's to stop someone from shooting photos and selling them? Are their signs that state something to prevent this? Do riders, guests and any public that go the track day required to sign something saying they won't do this?

Think of it this way - he makes a living off taking pics. He is supposed to have access to 120 riders and being able to sell them pics to support his family. It's what he does...

If there are two photographers there, that takes 1/2 the riders base from him. His income is effected and he makes less. If you show up unannounced and he is planning on being the sole guy, you've hurt his income and he would be rightfully upset and "pissy" with the guy that was there.

Photographers are a strange lot of people. They can be disguised as a friend there to take pics when in fact, they are taking tons of pics of EVERYONE all around the track. Casual photographers are taking pics of friends or people they know. They usually are in bad light or in certain specific areas of the track. When Jig saw a guy at multiple places and shooting TONS of other riders, he got pissed as he assumed the guy was doing it on a professional basis.

You're blowing this way out of proportion here. If you are authorized by STT, you can go anywhere and take as much as you want. If you are not and you go places you are not allowed, the cornerworkers make it known and you'll get thrown out probably as Mid-Ohio has little to no tolerances towards that type of behavior.

If Monte finds out you are doing it as a rogue photo guy, you will be black listed and not allowed in ever again...

It can be viewed as harsh, but understand that if you are up front with everyone, you will know the rules and they will know who you are and everything will be cool. Try and be sneaky? You might get away with it a few times, but when caught, it's gonna be bad.

Now, Yota takes a killer pic and posted it online with no intent to sell? That's perfectly fine. It's also cool if he is offered money and accepts. It is just not doing it as a business and to make money off it. His intentions are just to take some cool pics of buds and have a good time. Nothing wrong with that.

The pissy part is that an Asian guy was taking a shit pile of pics of everyone... It upset Jig and if your buddy was doing a lot of pics, he might have over reacted...

[yotaman88210]

It still amazes me I took such a good pic! Go me!

[fusion]

I don't know. I may have misread earlier posts but you're giving more info than what is being discussed. I don't remember it being mentioned he was shooting from somewhere he wasn't supposed to be. That's an entirely different situation.

I sell photos to fighters and camps I take at real events, more actual race than track day situation. These guys often bring people who shoot from publicly accessible areas. I use this money to pay for my photography habit and supplement my income anyway I can. I'm certainly not going to cry about it if someone takes a better photo than I did and sells it. I don't even care if it's good enough for them to want for free over paying for my photo even if it's better. If I didn't take something worth someone paying for over what someone else could shoot from a public area...I didn't do my job.

So I show up to ride and shoot some photos of my fellow OR brothers and sisters for some OR track day outing and there end up being 30 of us there, what happens?

[fusion]

It still amazes me I took such a good pic! Go me!

It is a great shot though.

[Moto-Brian]

I don't know. I may have misread earlier posts but you're giving more info than what is being discussed. I don't remember it being mentioned he was shooting from somewhere he wasn't supposed to be. That's an entirely different situation.

I sell photos to fighters and camps I take at real events, more actual race than track day situation. These guys often bring people who shoot from publicly accessible areas. I use this money to pay for my photography habit and supplement my income anyway I can. I'm certainly not going to cry about it if someone takes a better photo than I did and sells it. I don't even care if it's good enough for them to want for free over paying for my photo even if it's better. If I didn't take something worth someone paying for over what someone else could shoot from a public area...I didn't do my job.

So I show up to ride and shoot some photos of my fellow OR brothers and sisters for some OR track day outing and there end up being 30 of us there, what happens?

That's the thing... Race day and track day are viewed as one in the same. The riders may not be professional riders, but they buy the pics just as if the racers were at the track. WERA, AMA, etc have a list of photographers allowed to take pics in areas not allowed to the general public...

Jig takes pics where you cannot if you are Joe Public. However, since there is no real security, you can get almost anywhere and do about anything... We've had guys on the TV Camera structures taking pics and until a cornerworker saw them, we had no idea...

If you are up there taking pics of buddies, that's cool. You'll be able to go almost anywhere... If you post them on a site and wanna sell them, you need to ask Monte if it is OK.

In my opinion, if you are going to be shooting 30 people, you need to let Monte know so he can make sure the paid guy isn't going to be upset when he sees you. It would go a long ways to intro yourself and make it known you are doing it solely for personal use...

[Moto-Brian]

That's what Asians do. No need to get bent over it.

I can't bare to read the STT website. It is very hard to navigate. Could somebody show me the rules that say 'no cameras' so I can read them.

The Asian guy story is more in depth than I am telling. It easily could have been misinterpreted as an issue... It wasn't, but the guy pissed off Jig because he was where he wasn't allowed and with taking a pile of pics, one is led to believe he is doing it to make money. He came with two guys and came VERY late. But, he was shooting almost every bike that went by... That doesn't look good.

There is no rules on cameras. As stated, it is a professional courtesy if you are going up to shoot pics to make money. If you do it for fun and are giving them away to people you know or shot, fine by me. If you come up and say your doing it for fun and all of a sudden you got a site that is protected from people saving the pictures or you charge them to get them via email, etc.? We have issues...

[g35tonv]

The pissy part is that an Asian guy was taking a shit pile of pics of everyone... It upset Jig and if your buddy was doing a lot of pics, he might have over reacted...

Its ok, it just pissed off my friend because Jig yelled at him to go away. He was just trying to get the shots right because it was his first time taking pictures of fast moving objects like that so he was trying to get everything focused is why he was taking pictures of every bike... Another reason was because there were 5 of us(friends) and wasnt 100% sure whos all who since some people kind of had the same color bikes etc.. It was purely personal shots and he wasnt planning on selling them. But its understandable however I still think maybe he should of asked or something. Instead of pointing fingers and telling him to get the fuck out.

[fusion]

Sorry a track day and race day are not the same thing. STT Trackday does not equal AMA or WERA Race.

Also, (most) photographers at race events aren't selling photos like the STT guy. They are generally shooting for news or resell to publications. I frequent photography forums more than anything else and that includes motor sports. I get the best of both worlds there. It's not unique in the way it handles access.

Obvoiusly I missed the point where he was somewhere "he shouldn't be"...

However say I'm taking photos of 30 people from the group I'm with from a generally accessible location. Nothing special, why would I ask permission to do something like that?

Edited May 6, 2009 by fusion
I don't type friggin fast enough

[Moto-Brian]

Its ok, it just pissed off my friend because Jig yelled at him to go away. He was just trying to get the shots right because it was his first time taking pictures of fast moving objects like that so he was trying to get everything focused is why he was taking pictures of every bike... Another reason was because there were 5 of us(friends) and wasnt 100% sure whos all who since some people kind of had the same color bikes etc.. It was purely personal shots and he wasnt planning on selling them. But its understandable however I still think maybe he should of asked or something. Instead of pointing fingers and telling him to get the fuck out.

I agree. Then again, on the reverse side of that, your buddy could have talked to Monte or even Jig and just let him know what was up. Also consider that Jig was not pissed after he saw him taking pics and figured out he was not a professional photo guy. We all talked the next day and he was fine. Your buddy might have taken it a little harsh, too.

But, I think Jig could have been a little nicer... Joe got pissed at times, too. It's their living - I understand why they could get upset easily...

[g35tonv]

The Asian guy story is more in depth than I am telling. It easily could have been misinterpreted as an issue... It wasn't, but the guy pissed off Jig because he was where he wasn't allowed and with taking a pile of pics, one is led to believe he is doing it to make money. He came with two guys and came VERY late. But, he was shooting almost every bike that went by... That doesn't look good.

There is no rules on cameras. As stated, it is a professional courtesy if you are going up to shoot pics to make money. If you do it for fun and are giving them away to people you know or shot, fine by me. If you come up and say your doing it for fun and all of a sudden you got a site that is protected from people saving the pictures or you charge them to get them via email, etc.? We have issues...

your also right about him not being where he was supposed to either. However, the flagger that was at that turn let him hang there for shots. So the Asian photographer really did nothing wrong but got yelled at heh.

[Moto-Brian]

Sorry a track day and race day are not the same thing. STT Trackday does not equal AMA or WERA Race.

Also, (most) photographers at race events aren't selling photos like the STT guy. They are generally shooting for news or resell to publications. I frequent photography forums more than anything else and that includes motor sports. I get the best of both worlds there. It's not unique in the way it handles access.

Back to the point, I'm taking photos of 30 people from the group I'm with from a generally accessible location. Nothing special, why would I ask permission to do something like that?

You keep bringing up this shooting from special places and we are talking about shooting from common areas.

Actually, there are authorized photographers allowed to sell pics at the races. Trust me... Also, it is unique at the races in that an average Smoe isn't allowed access a guy with Press credentials has. Eurotech, VIP Photography, etc. shoot all the time at the AMA and WERA events and they also sell their images to mags and online publications... They also sell to the racers a LOT. They have dedicated sites to buy from, etc... Track days may not have press guys there, but the professional photographer guy is regarded the same as the guys at the races that sell...

You aren't going to get the same pic he can from inside the fence at the top of the keyhole if you are up on top of the hill or outside the chain link fence. That's my point... You can shoot like the guy at Putnam from the front straight all day long. You can shoot like Yota did at the esses, etc. But at corner station #10 and from behind like the pic I posted? Nope. They will not allow you to go there.

You might sweet talk your way there, but again, if you are caught or it is found out, you need to be respectful and understand you didn't have permission...

You can shoot from a lot of cool spots for sure that are general areas. Personally, I like the artistic shots of us in the pits with helmets on and getting ready, etc. The guys never get those as they are always out on track shooting action stuff...

I'd buy every pic from you if you did the artistic shots in the pits, etc. They are cool to me and are something that we typically never see.

Now, if you call or email Monte or ask me to ask him about shooting an event and there isn't a photo guy there, he will grant you access and allow you to make some coing if you choose. All ya gotta do is ask...