Gentle giant

[El Karacho1647545492]

Fair enough. But I would submit that Mr. Brown wasn't shot for the illicit procurement of cigars at all, but for his subsequent actions.

 

When he allegedly punched the officer and attempted to gain control of his weapon, I'm not up on Missouri case law, but I'm willing to bet those are felonies.

 

Yes, but the felonious action has been alleged by 3 parties: the officer accused of the shooting, a mysterious radio caller known as "Josie" and the friggin' media. Again, no evidence has been presented and the victim/accused has not been afforded his right to due process. Even with violent felonies, the glory of our country is that you are treated as innocent until proven guilty and you have the right to your day in court.

 

And what worries me, and a few others in this thread, is the increasingly popular opinion that because he was ACCUSED of felonies somehow justifies his death at the hands of a public officer. If what he did directly put the officer's life in danger, then that is one thing, but I don't know that we'll ever see the truth of that matter. And in those situations, I'm always going to err on the side of caution and assume the public would be better served by an officer NOT killing someone.

[wagner]

Yes, but the felonious action has been alleged by 3 parties: the officer accused of the shooting, a mysterious radio caller known as "Josie" and the friggin' media. Again, no evidence has been presented and the victim/accused has not been afforded his right to due process. Even with violent felonies, the glory of our country is that you are treated as innocent until proven guilty and you have the right to your day in court.

 

And what worries me, and a few others in this thread, is the increasingly popular opinion that because he was ACCUSED of felonies somehow justifies his death at the hands of a public officer. If what he did directly put the officer's life in danger, then that is one thing, but I don't know that we'll ever see the truth of that matter. And in those situations, I'm always going to err on the side of caution and assume the public would be better served by an officer NOT killing someone.

 

There are three sides to everything, yours, mine, and the truth. One of the 3 sides here ain't sucking air these days, so we are left with one side, and the truth.

 

The big question is, will that one side, and the truth line up?

 

I've got friends and family in law enforcment, some of the stories they tell me that DON'T hit the news are enough to make your guts hurt. The shit they see and have to deal with at times is more than most people ever want to face.

 

So, I could see in that moment why he might have pulled that gun, even more so that this officer had a pretty clean record.

 

I've kind of got a theory on this whole deal now, I'm not an expert, not saying this is the truth, but based on what we know here is what I think:

 

Officer detains suspect for walking down middle of the road

 

Suspect thinks officer is about to find out about stolen smokes deal that just went down.

 

Suspect gets bright idea to fight with cop.

 

Gun some how goes off (yet to be figured out)

 

Suspect gets bright idea to "come at me bro" on the cop.

 

Officer pulls gun as he is bro comming at me and pulls trigger

 

In that split second suspect figures out he has made poor life choice and tries to throw up hands as rounds travel down range

 

Speed of light is faster than speed of sound, so it looks like he is "trying to surrender" as he gets lit up

 

Now, am I an expert, fuck no, am I able to think on my own, most of the time. This is about the best I can do to try and make any sense of this mess...

[wagner]

Again, that is me trying to play Columbus CSI: Dumbass Edition based on the limited information we have.

 

Here is another big question, what if after all the smoke clears, there are a good amount of facts, and it turns out this kid was in the wrong. Then what?

 

Also, did this cop car have a fucking dash cam? I mean every Igor in Russia has one on their hoopty, why does every cop in the USofA not have one?

[zeitgeist57]

If what he did directly put the officer's life in danger, then that is one thing, but I don't know that we'll ever see the truth of that matter. And in those situations, I'm always going to err on the side of caution and assume the public would be better served by an officer NOT killing someone.

 

The unfortunate thing I'm seeing in our society today - more of an effect of the legal/judicial system than anything else - is the pirate mantra of "Dead Men Tell No Tales"; it's better off for one side to eliminate the counterpoint than to argue two differing eyewitness accounts of the same incident in court.

[FatHemiDude]

There are three sides to everything, yours, mine, and the truth. One of the 3 sides here ain't sucking air these days, so we are left with one side, and the truth.

 

The big question is, will that one side, and the truth line up?

 

I've got friends and family in law enforcment, some of the stories they tell me that DON'T hit the news are enough to make your guts hurt. The shit they see and have to deal with at times is more than most people ever want to face.

 

So, I could see in that moment why he might have pulled that gun, even more so that this officer had a pretty clean record.

 

I've kind of got a theory on this whole deal now, I'm not an expert, not saying this is the truth, but based on what we know here is what I think:

 

Officer detains suspect for walking down middle of the road

 

Suspect thinks officer is about to find out about stolen smokes deal that just went down.

 

Suspect gets bright idea to fight with cop.

 

Gun some how goes off (yet to be figured out)

 

Suspect gets bright idea to "come at me bro" on the cop.

 

Officer pulls gun as he is bro comming at me and pulls trigger

 

In that split second suspect figures out he has made poor life choice and tries to throw up hands as rounds travel down range

 

Speed of light is faster than speed of sound, so it looks like he is "trying to surrender" as he gets lit up

 

Now, am I an expert, fuck no, am I able to think on my own, most of the time. This is about the best I can do to try and make any sense of this mess...

 

Pretty much exactly how I think it went down as well. So in this scenario, is the cop justified in eliminating Mr Brown's right to due process by shooting him in the forehead?

 

Or is the cop a murderer?

[El Karacho1647545492]

There are three sides to everything, yours, mine, and the truth. One of the 3 sides here ain't sucking air these days, so we are left with one side, and the truth.

 

The big question is, will that one side, and the truth line up?

 

I've got friends and family in law enforcment, some of the stories they tell me that DON'T hit the news are enough to make your guts hurt. The shit they see and have to deal with at times is more than most people ever want to face.

 

So, I could see in that moment why he might have pulled that gun, even more so that this officer had a pretty clean record.

 

I've kind of got a theory on this whole deal now, I'm not an expert, not saying this is the truth, but based on what we know here is what I think:

 

Officer detains suspect for walking down middle of the road

 

Suspect thinks officer is about to find out about stolen smokes deal that just went down.

 

Suspect gets bright idea to fight with cop.

 

Gun some how goes off (yet to be figured out)

 

Suspect gets bright idea to "come at me bro" on the cop.

 

Officer pulls gun as he is bro comming at me and pulls trigger

 

In that split second suspect figures out he has made poor life choice and tries to throw up hands as rounds travel down range

 

Speed of light is faster than speed of sound, so it looks like he is "trying to surrender" as he gets lit up

 

Now, am I an expert, fuck now, am I able to think on my own, most of the time. This is about the best I can do to try and make any sense of this mess...

 

I think your theory holds water, but then again a lot of them do. I think neither the officer's story nor Brown's friend's story make any sense whatsoever. I think everyone is wrong; Brown was wrong IF he stole cigars and threatened the cashier and assaulted an officer. The officer is wrong IF he killed an unarmed teen (still deserves due process). The friend of Brown's is wrong IF he is lying about his story (I think he is). The media is wrong for what I believe is inciting the tension to the point of riots.

 

I don't think we'll ever know the truth, and I don't think justice will ever be done. That is the ONE way I believe this case has any similarity to Trayvon/Zimmerman's case.

[spectragod]

Pretty much exactly how I think it went down as well. So in this scenario, is the cop justified in eliminating Mr Brown's right to due process by shooting him in the forehead?

 

Or is the cop a murderer?

 

Ever had yours or know. Someone who had their orbital socket broken? Lots of pain, hard to see and focus, it's amazing he hit his target.

 

As far as the use of force continuum, your are supposed to go the next level higher as opposed to just meeting the force being used against you, that's how you can de-esculate a situation, by controlling it.

 

If someone comes at you with a ball bat or a knife, is that what your going to use to defend yourself?

 

I would wait for all the facts to become known before making the decision who was right and who was wrong. Sometimes just applying common sense will clear things up.

[spectragod]

All this bs about being unarmed........ If you are put in a death match with a professional fighter, and you only have a can of pepper spray or a firearm, what will you use to save your life? Keep in mind, your assailant is on top of you giving you a beating....... Discuss...

[Snowflake]

All this bs about being unarmed........ If you are put in a death match with a professional fighter, and you only have a can of pepper spray or a firearm, what will you use to save your life? Keep in mind, your assailant is on top of you giving you a beating....... Discuss...

 

RIP Trayvon

[RedRocket1647545505]

The officer is wrong IF he killed an unarmed teen

 

All this bs about being unarmed........ If you are put in a death match with a professional fighter, and you only have a can of pepper spray or a firearm, what will you use to save your life? Keep in mind, your assailant is on top of you giving you a beating....... Discuss...

 

Thank you.

 

This is a huge pet peeve of mine; The guy/kid/teenager/whatever WAS NOT unarmed. The boy weighed, what?, ~300lb? He has cinderblocks for fists. I'd be damned if I'd take a chance of going blow-for-blow with him. He gets within ~30ft of me and makes any aggressive movement, and I'm shooting him. No taser that may or may not work/hit him. No baton. No OC spray. Just bullets.

[copperhead]

I will never forget the first time I goofed up on a fact in a story, it was brutal. It was not anything major, but I was pretty much told, that's not how we do things, don't do that again.

 

I've even had stories pulled after they were done and turned in because there were questions as to the information that was given to me.

 

So, I really can't follow the way CNN, MSNBC, Fox, and the rest operate in this grey area they do, its not responsible reporting.

 

The thing I've notices is you get all this outrage built and reported to get the clicks, views and ratings. Then after the facts come out and the "story" they tried to tell is proven false it just happens to go away...

 

Anybody else notice this?

 

All of this rioting, this entire "crises", was absolutely manufactured by the 24/7 media. All of them are guilty of it. They don't give a shit about what happened to who, all they want to know is can they get a group of people glued to their tvs or computer screens for a week to drive ratings, drive ad clicks, whatever. If they can get someone outraged then they've done their jobs.

 

This country won't return to its senses until we can get the media to report honestly and fairly and totally non-partisan. You know, what CNN has always claimed to be, but haven't been in 20 years.

[spectragod]

RIP Trayvon

 

Wtf? This isn't about that incident, we could start a thread to discuss it. And while we are at it, we can start threads on the white kid that was shot dead by a black police officer, and black on white crime, white on black crime etc.

[copperhead]

So the story being told by the officer, or at least that's been released by the police department, is that there were some words back and forth, which lead to Brown attacking the officer.

 

Weapon or not, most states consider attacking a police officer to automatically be aggravated assault. Assuming the description of events coming from police is accurate, then the officer was severely beaten which would turn into aggravated assault anyway.

 

Aggravated assault is a felony in all states.

 

Again, assuming the story from the police is accurate, Brown walked away, then walked back, with his hands up mocking the officer, yet coming back to make another attack. The officer at some point fell into the car, and was being attacked by Brown. I don't know about Missouri, but in Ohio, Castle Doctrine would allow any citizen to defend them self with deadly force from the inside of their car. Of course, being a police officer, he's already authorized to defend himself with deadly force.

 

However, the officer has something else on their side. Case law. There is the Fleeing Felon Rule.

 

According to Wikipedia:

 

Under U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited in 1985 to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1. The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."[2]

 

A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead...however...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force.

—Justice Byron White, Tennessee v. Garner[3]

 

Fleeing felons may be followed into places not open to the public without a warrant if the officer is in "hot pursuit.[4] Deadly force that is executed by a co-defendant against an accomplice is not justified by the fleeing felon rule.[5]

 

Assuming the officer had just taken the severe beating that had been claimed, then they have more than enough probable cause to believe that Brown posed a threat of serious physical harm. Right there is another point of justifying the shooting.

 

If the officer hadn't taken the beat down as claimed, then he's guilty of murder. BUT, had Brown assaulted him in the manner claimed, then he did his job correctly. So, like the Trayvon case, I feel this will come down to - was the shooter attacked first? Once that is settled, hopefully with dash cam evidence, this will be over quickly.

Edited August 29, 2014 by copperhead

[copperhead]

FYI, both coroners, including the one hired by Brown's family, said that there were 6 bullet hits on Brown's body. There were I believe 3 that connected to his left hand and arm in a way only possible if his hands were straight out, not up.

[spectragod]

No dash cam video, apparently new camera's were ordered for the cars and have not been installed, last I heard.

[copperhead]

No dash cam video, apparently new camera's were ordered for the cars and have not been installed, last I heard.

 

Well that's a huuuuuge issue. Body cameras and dash cams, in proper working order, would have put an end to this entire issue before it started. They are insurance for the good cops, and weed out the bad ones pretty quick.

[RC K9]

Well that's a huuuuuge issue. Body cameras and dash cams, in proper working order, would have put an end to this entire issue before it started. They are insurance for the good cops, and weed out the bad ones pretty quick.

 

This. ALL cops should have body cameras.

[El Karacho1647545492]

Well that's a huuuuuge issue. Body cameras and dash cams, in proper working order, would have put an end to this entire issue before it started. They are insurance for the good cops, and weed out the bad ones pretty quick.

 

I'm not big on surveillance, but when it comes to being on the job I have no problem with it. As a car salesperson, I get accused of some ridiculous shit and I'm usually pretty happy to have everything I do on security camera so I can refute it.

 

As copperhead said, the good cops should have no issue with it and the bad ones will be exposed.

[copperhead]

I'm not big on surveillance, but when it comes to being on the job I have no problem with it. As a car salesperson, I get accused of some ridiculous shit and I'm usually pretty happy to have everything I do on security camera so I can refute it.

 

As copperhead said, the good cops should have no issue with it and the bad ones will be exposed.

 

It's really a win win. I'd much rather see money go to those than filling up the tank of an MRAP

[El Karacho1647545492]

It's really a win win. I'd much rather see money go to those than filling up the tank of an MRAP

 

Fuckin' right. And as has been said, it actually will protect the good cops and hopefully put a quick end to a lot of baseless police brutality claims.

[Stretch]

Body cameras are awesome. I wish more guys would use them. They work both ways. Once people found out some of us were using them the amount of complaints against officers significantly dropped.

 

Then you have the obvious where you'd have video in situations like this.

[Geeesammy]

I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.... If my life or safety was in danger I'd have done the exact same thing and so would 99.9% of people in the world.

[RC K9]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/witness-michael-brown-shooting-speaks-article-1.1932820

[wagner]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/witness-michael-brown-shooting-speaks-article-1.1932820

 

What a freaking mess I really don't think the "truth" will ever come out in this. A dash cam would have put this to bed a while ago.

 

The thing that sticks out to me is: "I don't know if he was going after him or if he was falling down to die"

 

Just that little bit of doubt can toss everything sideways.

[RC K9]

What a freaking mess I really don't think the "truth" will ever come out in this. A dash cam would have put this to bed a while ago.

 

The thing that sticks out to me is: "I don't know if he was going after him or if he was falling down to die"

 

Just that little bit of doubt can toss everything sideways.

 

Yup.

 

Sad situation all around for many reasons.

 

Go Pro's/Dash Cams should be mandatory for all officers so s to avoid situations like this.