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Purely academic: which is worse Balloon tires or hella flush?


Geeto67

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So back when musclecars were still somewhat cheap and there really wasn't a rim size bigger than 17" in diameter and even then 17s were expensive, what we used to do was stretch fat tires on to rims skinnier than the tire's bead. Usually these were bias ply, or belted, but sometimes radials like BFG Radial T/A and they were usually going on 14" rims. It would cause the sidewall to balloon out a little so we called them balloon tires (I'm sure there are other regional names for it. We did this for a lot of reasons but usually priority #1 was to get a big fat meaty gumball outback without having to buy new rims.

 

So I was thinking about this when I saw someone trying to drive their hellaflushed VW MKIII in the snow yesterday. It's the same kind of stretching but a different direction.

 

So forget the look for a second, what is actually worse, more dangerous, less a performance upgrade for the tire? Putting a too wide a tire on too narrow a rim, or too narrow a tire on too wide a rim?

 

At least when we did the fat tire thing we did it because most of us ran brackets and we wanted more traction in a straight line, but maybe there is a performance advantage I am not seeing from the stretched tire thing.

 

Discuss.

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I think given only those two options, cramming a huge tire on a small rim is safer...I mean, the beads push OUT. Less tire would be less secure at the bead....the thing that holds all the air lol

 

At least I hope so, that is what I and many others do with offroad tires....

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Different goals require either solution.

 

 

+1

 

Drag racers typically only care about contact patch and welcome a little sidewall deflection so bigger is better for them.

 

Auto-x guys actually do the same but only because they are limited, in stock classes, to stock wheel dimensions but not tire size. They deal with the sidewall deflection differently and make it work for them.

 

Track guys prefer stretch to a certain extent. Obviously you can go too far and make it unsafe but the wider the wheel the better the shape and consistency of the contact patch of the tire. For instance on the GT3, on the front of the car I run a 235 on a 9" wheel. If you read Michelin and other tire manufacturers tech articles they prefer stretch...again to a degree.

 

But there's always stuff that any automotive enthusiast will do for looks as well without considering performance at all. I ran 225's on an 8.5" wheel on the Audi because that car was low enough to tuck tires and would rub like crazy with anything bigger on it.

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I think given only those two options, cramming a huge tire on a small rim is safer...I mean, the beads push OUT. Less tire would be less secure at the bead....the thing that holds all the air lol

 

At least I hope so, that is what I and many others do with offroad tires....

 

Stretching, or stretched as they call it, a small tire on a wide rim is a recipe for an under inflated tire to come off the bead of the rim, quickly, and usually under cornering stress. The other way, small rim wide tire, this is less likely.

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Stretch for me. The sidewall has much less movement yielding a more precise handling and its consequences and advantages. The Pirelli slicks on my Z06 are 305 mm and 315 mm in width, they are mounted on 11" and 13" wide wheels, respectively. Not an ideal tire-wheel size combination if you asked me, but the sidewalls of these tires stay put and help the tread section to hold its shape. The resulting sharp handling helps me with consistency and predictability.

 

To answer your questions. There is a limit on each end; exceeding that limit creates a risky characteristic situation. Not to mention wrong application in a wrong situation. For example, a stretched tire, even mildly, would be a disaster in Baja 1000 and a balloon tire would not fare well in a British Touring Car Championship.

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Just like the answers to "what's best for my health" and "what politicians are really looking out for my interests", the correct answer is that there's no one answer for everything.

 

Imagine how horrible a hellaflush Chevelle SS would handle without insane suspension modifications. Imagine how ridiculous and numb a GTI would feel with balloon tires without appropriate suspension modifications.

 

The balloons worked because those cars already were numb in the handling department, but a little extra sidewall provided some additional traction as you said.

 

The stretched tires work for an MK3 because you're not looking for the sidewall to assist in straight-line speed, and the suspension is [ideally] set up for incredible stiffness.

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+1

 

Drag racers typically only care about contact patch and welcome a little sidewall deflection so bigger is better for them.

 

Auto-x guys actually do the same but only because they are limited, in stock classes, to stock wheel dimensions but not tire size. They deal with the sidewall deflection differently and make it work for them.

 

Track guys prefer stretch to a certain extent. Obviously you can go too far and make it unsafe but the wider the wheel the better the shape and consistency of the contact patch of the tire. For instance on the GT3, on the front of the car I run a 235 on a 9" wheel. If you read Michelin and other tire manufacturers tech articles they prefer stretch...again to a degree.

 

But there's always stuff that any automotive enthusiast will do for looks as well without considering performance at all. I ran 225's on an 8.5" wheel on the Audi because that car was low enough to tuck tires and would rub like crazy with anything bigger on it.

 

 

/thread

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+1

 

 

Track guys prefer stretch to a certain extent. Obviously you can go too far and make it unsafe but the wider the wheel the better the shape and consistency of the contact patch of the tire. For instance on the GT3, on the front of the car I run a 235 on a 9" wheel. If you read Michelin and other tire manufacturers tech articles they prefer stretch...again to a degree.

 

Can you explain this some more? I always figured you want a neutral sidewall on the wheel for neutral lateral deflection in either direction. not sure I understand.

 

Drag racers don't want any lateral deflection, they want a large sidewall for longitudinal deflection (think wrinkle wall slick) so that some of the initial hit is absorbed and the car is less likely to break traction. They put up with lateral deflection to get that little bit of give on launch.

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This is all I can come up with for this thread.... a depiction of reality....

 

"I run stretched tires bro. I also hate my parents. they are a "drag""

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/19200000/Max-the-emo-kid-19260302-243-300.jpg

 

 

"More meat is better, you should see the new seat covers I put in the camaro"

http://www.oocities.org/hillsidehaflingers/chris_mechanic.jpg

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Can you explain this some more? I always figured you want a neutral sidewall on the wheel for neutral lateral deflection in either direction. not sure I understand.

 

 

I think "stretch...to a degree" needs to be defined a little better for a performance perspective. Never more than ~ 1/2 inch in a performance / road racing type of situation. You're trying to stiffen the sidewall even more to avoid any deflection if at all possible. In looking at this on a wheel they're more than likely going to look pretty neutral as you describe above. I'll see if I can take a picture of what I mean this evening my street tire rears might even be a better example. 295 on an 11" wheel is the factory wheel / tire setup on the rear of the GT3 (.6 inch wider wheel than tire). Also remember an 11" wheel is 11" wide at the bead and even wider at the wheel lip.

 

**edit if you actually look at the sig picture of my car at Mid Ohio you can see the 295 on an 11" wheel at full deflection. Still some deflection but minimized.**

 

Tom's (POS VET) laid out the benefits pretty well.

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