mmrmnhrm Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Anybody have one for borrow/rent? I have a breaker at the office that's likely cross-threaded (spat a spark out the side while I was working further down) and I'd like to get it isolated and replaced, but didn't see any obvious scorch marks on the bus bars to point a finger at the misbehaving connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfunnyryan Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Just touch it with your bare, wet hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmrmnhrm Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Just touch it with your bare, wet hands That's actually the final test a coworker of mine does to verify that a panel is, in fact, dead... licks his fingers and sticks them straight on the lugs. Unfortunately, taking this panel down is not an option, and licking my fingers won't aid in repairing the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffro Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 I did the finger test on a 5v circuit at school and got the shit burnt out of me, so I caution that method. Other than that HF has a cheap one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmrmnhrm Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 I did the finger test on a 5v circuit at school and got the shit burnt out of me, so I caution that method. Other than that HF has a cheap one. Finger test - Yeah, the "lick fingers and plug in" comes after metering everything (phase-phase, phase-neutral, phase-ground, neutral-ground), but still made me go 'wtf' the first time I saw him do it. HF - Linkage? When I searched for both "infrared" and "flir" on the site (assuming you mean Harbor Freight), I got nothing. Searching "camera" gives me some security cameras, four inspection cameras with little fiber extensions that, after reading the product description, don't appear to have thermal/false color capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/gillbot/imagejpg1_zps56b42e5e.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImUrOBGYN Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/gillbot/imagejpg1_zps56b42e5e.jpg OP, has this solved the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadz89GTA Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Get insulated tools and move the breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Bastard Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 What is the purpose of the finger test? I am a little limited on my electrical knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmrmnhrm Posted April 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 OP, has this solved the problem? Unfortunately not... James is way the bloody devil in BFE, like hour and a half for each of us just to meet half-way. Hardly practical for what should be all of five minutes of scanning. Get insulated tools and move the breaker. Company policy is to replace it completely, but first I have to find which of the bastards is causing the problem. There's no obvious arc on the visible terminals I can see, which means it's likely on a phase that's covered up by the breaker itself. A thermal camera can pick out the heat signature on the bus screw caused by the bad connection. What is the purpose of the finger test? I am a little limited on my electrical knowledge. Old electrician's habit... you use a meter to check each phase-to-phase, phase-to-neutral, phase-to-ground, and neutral-to-ground for stray voltages, then assuming they all check out (and your meter worked properly when you started and finished... you DID check that, right??), you lick the fingers on your right hand and plug yourself in. The idea is that if, for some reason, your meter is having a bad day, the "safest" place (if you can call it that) to get shocked is across the fingers of your right hand, as far away from your heart and spinal cord as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 OP, has this solved the problem? I don't loan out my camera. However, a harbor freight temp gun can help isolate it to a few breakers if there is an issue. Another option is to try and wiggle the breakers and listen for arcing or watch for power flickers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmrmnhrm Posted April 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Another option is to try and wiggle the breakers and listen for arcing or watch for power flickers. Not with potentially several grand worth of IT gear and customer data connected. Without a thermal camera or someone there to see exactly which contact plate arcs while I'm working further down the panel, the rule is "Don't risk making things worse by dicking around." Eventually it'll either trip out (which I will see within minutes via branch circuit monitors), leave an arc I can see on the bus work, or it'll get found during the annual "scan everything" sweep in late summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Link Can def tell you if one is hotter than the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBaustert Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Test resistance of the breakers? Check current through the breakers? We have 2x FLIR cameras at work we use to audit panels for this type of stuff and IIRC they were $20k+ each, so it may be tough to convince someone to lend it. One thing you could try is talking to your local Grainger rep about "demoing" one for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillJoy Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Rent One :thumbup: KillJoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloSVTruck Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Not with potentially several grand worth of IT gear and customer data connected. Without a thermal camera or someone there to see exactly which contact plate arcs while I'm working further down the panel, the rule is "Don't risk making things worse by dicking around." Eventually it'll either trip out (which I will see within minutes via branch circuit monitors), leave an arc I can see on the bus work, or it'll get found during the annual "scan everything" sweep in late summer. Is it not on a backup or dual Fed with geist strips?? Most expensive data equipment has some sort of alternative power to hold it for a little while. Quite a few companies around that will scan it for you and change the breaker also. If your changing breakers and stuff like that I'm surprised the company hasn't already purchased this sort of equipment. Normally when it comes to IT sorts of work money is of no object. Least in the data center I work in lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmrmnhrm Posted April 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Test resistance of the breakers? Check current through the breakers? We have 2x FLIR cameras at work we use to audit panels for this type of stuff and IIRC they were $20k+ each, so it may be tough to convince someone to lend it. One thing you could try is talking to your local Grainger rep about "demoing" one for a few days. Uhh... how would you go about testing the resistance of a breaker that's currently under load? As for price, I was hoping someone local might have something along the lines of this $500 kit from Grainger. Rent One 7 days is a little long, but I found elsewhere on their site that apparently some Home Depots offer 1-day rates, and for something that ought to take me five minutes, I might be able to convince management. Is it not on a backup or dual Fed with geist strips?? Most expensive data equipment has some sort of alternative power to hold it for a little while. Quite a few companies around that will scan it for you and change the breaker also. If your changing breakers and stuff like that I'm surprised the company hasn't already purchased this sort of equipment. Normally when it comes to IT sorts of work money is of no object. Least in the data center I work in lol. Except for one city where unions rule supreme, we do *almost* everything ourselves. High Voltage Maintenance comes out once a year to scan everything, but they're not slated to visit my place until August, which doesn't really help much. I've made noise about having thermal guns locally, and will do so again, but the counter-argument has always been liability if we miss something. All our customer racks are dual fed, but again, in order to take advantage of that and alert the affected customer, I have to isolate the bad breaker first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 If I ever get out that way, I'll scan it. Problem is scheduling and mine has been utter chaos lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloSVTruck Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Uhh... how would you go about testing the resistance of a breaker that's currently under load? As for price, I was hoping someone local might have something along the lines of this $500 kit from Grainger. 7 days is a little long, but I found elsewhere on their site that apparently some Home Depots offer 1-day rates, and for something that ought to take me five minutes, I might be able to convince management. Except for one city where unions rule supreme, we do *almost* everything ourselves. High Voltage Maintenance comes out once a year to scan everything, but they're not slated to visit my place until August, which doesn't really help much. I've made noise about having thermal guns locally, and will do so again, but the counter-argument has always been liability if we miss something. All our customer racks are dual fed, but again, in order to take advantage of that and alert the affected customer, I have to isolate the bad breaker first. Hmmmm my counter argument would be having the right tools to do your job and not run the risk of having something go down that you didn't intend too.... Not sure what the big issue on liability would be..... The data center I work in has there own thermal camera. Not sure exactly how often they do take pictures of the cabinets maybe every 3-4 months. But as long as you took the pictures documented it and fixed the issues you found.... I don't see a huge liability issue more of a better proactive thought process. We only use high-voltage maintenance on our big breakers that have to be racked in and cost 30k+ per breaker..... The small 208/240 volt stuff we take care of/change out. Even the smaller PDP's that are 480v we will change breakers and fix things. If you have to rent something and home depot has the cameras that sounds like the best bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBaustert Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Uhh... how would you go about testing the resistance of a breaker that's currently under load? As for price, I was hoping someone local might have something along the lines of this $500 kit from Grainger. I guess I missed the part about you not being able to remove power from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmrmnhrm Posted April 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 I guess I missed the part about you not being able to remove power from it. A'yup... To remove power, we have to coordinate a partial outage with the customer impacted. To take down an entire panel is... impractical. On the plus side, I showed that Grainger link to my manager earlier today, and he was like "Damn, that's within my no-prior-approval-needed window for general expenses. Get one!" :fuckyeah: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensan Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 Uhh... how would you go about testing the resistance of a breaker that's currently under load? I would measure the voltage drop across the breaker; one lead on the bus bar in the panel, the other on the lead coming out of the breaker. NOT on the screw of the breaker itself, it would have to be the wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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