TTQ B4U Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 Wow. Still, systems like onstar tracked where you went - they just didn't track your position in the lane. From a privacy standpoint the tech moved faster than the objections to violating your privacy could keep up, the only question that remains is are they adequately disclosing this info to consumers. So you're saying there's an expectation of privacy in terms of how one positions their vehicle on the road? I wouldn't say there's an expectation of privacy at all really. No different than a vehicles black black/ECU and the data on it being used in an investigation where a death is involved. In fact that was the case in convicting a drunk guy who killed a cop on the East Side of 270 several years back. Traffic cameras, witnesses and ultimate the guys SUV all provided solid data to help make the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 I'm a fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 Wow. Still, systems like onstar tracked where you went - they just didn't track your position in the lane. From a privacy standpoint the tech moved faster than the objections to violating your privacy could keep up, the only question that remains is are they adequately disclosing this info to consumers. OnStar doesn't track you to the level of Tesla, but that's not to say OnStar won't be in the future. All the data being collected by hundreds of millions of miles is now being stored in databanks. It makes the autopilot that much more smart. The system is learning. When I first got autopilot, and went out on the freeway, every time there was an exit, the car would slightly move towards that exit until it realized there was a white line ahead and it would pull it back into the lane. After two or three times passing that exit, it no longer did that. All of that information is being stored so that eventually a self driving vehicle has a navigated map for all roads in America. Everybody's car is basically creating Google maps for the self driving vehicles. The system is learning and the concept is not unique to Tesla, but they are the first to implement it and people are more forgiving of Tesla. Ford said they know if you wen to Taco Bell and all hell breaks loose. Tesla tracks your every move and maps where you drive and no one cares. Traditional automakers are held to different standards. So you're saying there's an expectation of privacy in terms of how one positions their vehicle on the road? I wouldn't say there's an expectation of privacy at all really. No different than a vehicles black black/ECU and the data on it being used in an investigation where a death is involved. In fact that was the case in convicting a drunk guy who killed a cop on the East Side of 270 several years back. Traffic cameras, witnesses and ultimate the guys SUV all provided solid data to help make the case. Tesla is just the first to implement this, but others will follow. This is just an example of the type of data they collect. As a competitive automaker, the concern may be greater than an average person. Pretend for a second that I purchased a Tesla for competitive benchmarking. If I take it on my proving grounds it will map all the roads, speed limit signs, etc. If I run a series of tests on the vehicle, Tesla will have our entire test/validation profile. Since they can upload images from the camera on the car, they could not only see our test equipment and testing surfaces, but also prototype vehicles. It's also very likely that you could subpoena Tesla for your location data to provide an alibi to police, if you were accused of a crime. Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 It's also very likely that you could subpoena Tesla for your location data to provide an alibi to police, if you were accused of a crime. This is a very interesting statement. On the one hand, IIRC the courts in many places have upheld what I'll call the "red light camera" standard of proof, where if you get a traffic camera ticket, it is YOUR responsibility to prove you were not at the wheel. This standard in other places has been shot down, I believe Ohio is one of those places, but still, for the sake of argument... I wonder, if you were using telemetry data subpoenaed from Tesla to prove that you were driving somewhere other than the scene of a crime, would the same assumption stand up in court; that is, prosecution must prove that it was not you at the wheel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 This is a very interesting statement. On the one hand, IIRC the courts in many places have upheld what I'll call the "red light camera" standard of proof, where if you get a traffic camera ticket, it is YOUR responsibility to prove you were not at the wheel. This standard in other places has been shot down, I believe Ohio is one of those places, but still, for the sake of argument... I wonder, if you were using telemetry data subpoenaed from Tesla to prove that you were driving somewhere other than the scene of a crime, would the same assumption stand up in court; that is, prosecution must prove that it was not you at the wheel? In a criminal trial you only have to prove reasonable doubt, but yes any additional evidence would help. /ot Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceGhost Posted June 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Fatality:( http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a29791/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-report/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbs3000 Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Is that saying that the semi essentially t boned the tesla with the Tesla going underneath the trailer and people think that is in some way the cars fault for not catching that....? Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceGhost Posted June 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 I read it as the Tesla went under the trailer between the wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfunnyryan Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Fatality:( http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a29791/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-report/ Yikes, kind of a final destination scenario. Wonder if the car was looking at the plain* white side of the trailer and determined it was the horizon. The system isn't perfect and NEVER will be, but this very well could of happened to a distracted driver as well. Edited June 30, 2016 by unfunnyryan retard typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Yikes, kind of a final destination scenario. Wonder if the car was looking at the plane white side of the trailer and determined it was the horizon. The system isn't perfect and NEVER will be, but this very well could of happened to a distracted driver as well. The fact that R&T claims they don't think it's possible that the system could not detect the side of a semi truck tells me they have no fucking clue how these systems work. This is most likely what happened, and the driver was either not paying attention or was waiting as long as possible to see if the system would react in order to get another million YouTube hits. These systems cannot handle this type of situation! The driver still owns the safety of the vehicle! Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceGhost Posted June 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Volvo fired shots back in April. http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/27/11518826/volvo-tesla-autopilot-autonomous-self-driving-car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 http://jalopnik.com/first-fatal-tesla-autopilot-crash-sparks-nhtsa-investig-1782916450 According to the report it was not a limited access highway and the truck made a left turn in front of the Tesla. The driver was probably decapitated and killed immediately. I have also been saying since day 1 that it's irresponsible how the current system was released. There are easy checks/restrictions that could have been added to the software in order to ensure it would not be abused. Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco-REX Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 It's still the driver's fault IMO. MAYBE you might have trouble telling the difference between a while trailer box and sky, but you don't miss the cab, undercarriage, or 4 foot tall tires. I think Tesla has been very clear that the driver using their autopilot needs to be attentive. Maybe they should aim a camera at the the driver and every time they look away from the road for more than a couple seconds the car should yell "EYES FRONT!" though the speakers at high volume. On second thought, every car should have that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 It's still the driver's fault IMO. MAYBE you might have trouble telling the difference between a while trailer box and sky, but you don't miss the cab, undercarriage, or 4 foot tall tires. I think Tesla has been very clear that the driver using their autopilot needs to be attentive. Maybe they should aim a camera at the the driver and every time they look away from the road for more than a couple seconds the car should yell "EYES FRONT!" though the speakers at high volume. On second thought, every car should have that. The driver should have seen it, the system did not. I looked up the intersection on Google Street view and for the semi to get that far across his lane without the driver reacting tells the story. Speed limit is 65. Driver monitoring cameras do exist, but aren't accepted as necessary in this level of system. This is a Level 2 system that's trying really hard to be a level 3. Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli1647545497 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Working in software development for more than 30 years. I work with coders every day. And I can tell you I will never surrender my vehicle control to programmed code. Ever. Effing tech millenials drink the Cool Aid WAY too easy these days. Please, PLEASE don't let IT, tech commentators, tech groupies, applegoogle fanatics, and the rest of the tech hipster blogosphere lead the national vision on where and how this stuff gets rolled out. They are patently shortsighted and narrow visioned. Give these cars to mechanics, racers, CAR GUYS. Let them fuck with them for a good long while. THEN we'll be better informed how these machines will interact in our real lives. Not the "oh gee I can draw a flower on my watch and send it to my friends = progress" crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furloaf Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Effing tech millenials drink the Cool Aid WAY too easy these days. This. So much this. I read some article/blog post a while back from some competent programmer that looked at a start-up's "revolutionary AI" (self-claimed) that ended up being a mess of 150 or so nested if-then statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 http://jalopnik.com/man-killed-in-self-driving-tesla-was-watching-harry-pot-1782935648 Man Killed In Self-Driving Tesla Had Harry Potter Movie Playing With Autopilot Activated: Report I guess the reason he didn't see the truck was that quidditch scene was more compelling. so....where did I put my soap box....ok there it is....hang on a minute...wow this is taller than I remember. Ok..... ....Anybody else feel like we should be taking electronics out of cars not putting more in? I drove my old trusty Jeep to work today which has no radio, no GPS map, no infotainment system etc and it was actually kind of pleasant. you know what I wasn't? distracted. in any way. We keep complaining about distracted driving being a problem and yet there are more gadgets and systems going into cars that cause drivers to be more distracted. Seems counter-intuitive. Where is the balance? I mean I am not a rocket surgeon here but autonomous driving is going to encourage more behavior like this, not less. so...now...where did I put that high horse.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC K9 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 http://jalopnik.com/man-killed-in-self-driving-tesla-was-watching-harry-pot-1782935648 I guess the reason he didn't see the truck was that quidditch scene was more compelling. so....where did I put my soap box....ok there it is....hang on a minute...wow this is taller than I remember. Ok..... ....Anybody else feel like we should be taking electronics out of cars not putting more in? I drove my old trusty Jeep to work today which has no radio, no GPS map, no infotainment system etc and it was actually kind of pleasant. you know what I wasn't? distracted. in any way. We keep complaining about distracted driving being a problem and yet there are more gadgets and systems going into cars that cause drivers to be more distracted. Seems counter-intuitive. Where is the balance? I mean I am not a rocket surgeon here but autonomous driving is going to encourage more behavior like this, not less. so...now...where did I put that high horse.... Fk yes. Even on bluetooth phone convos I have blown through red lights and stop signs and stuff just not paying attention because I was so focused on the conversation. I decided years ago, i'm not taking phone calls or any of that while driving. It can wait until I pull over or I arrive at my destination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furloaf Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Yes. Touch controls and touch panels are the most stupid things put in cars in recent years. A physical, tactile button can be pressed without looking at it, a touch usually not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli1647545497 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Yes. Touch controls and touch panels are the most stupid things put in cars in recent years. A physical, tactile button can be pressed without looking at it, a touch usually not. QFT +1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 QFT +1000 Agreed. In my challenger it's a fucking pain to navigate the menus just to turn the fucking heater on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE-O Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Sadly we as a whole try to make life stupid proof instead of fixing the stupid problem itself. Children now all have ADD because they don't focus in 1st grade, little Billy is depressed because the other kids at school are not his friend. Someone who can't do their job at work doesn't get fired they bend over backwards to make them a better employee. You can't drive don't worry we won't teach you how to drive we will make a car that drives for you, just sit there on your ass and worry about that new YouTube video that someone celeb told you you should watch. Now I am all for making things better and advance but you should always have control hell we at least got it right when cruise control didn't cancel itself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfunnyryan Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 This. So much this. I read some article/blog post a while back from some competent programmer that looked at a start-up's "revolutionary AI" (self-claimed) that ended up being a mess of 150 or so nested if-then statements. Geohotz maybe? I know he said all the competing stuff was trash. His home-made self driving car uses pretty neat programming. http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-george-hotz-self-driving-car/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Agreed. In my challenger it's a fucking pain to navigate the menus just to turn the fucking heater on. You can turn the fan on/off, up/down, A/C on/off, temp up/down, recirculation on/off all with real buttons. How is this bad? Try driving a new Cadillac. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160702/7dbbf35e7f2b06f4aed7624411dabeed.jpg Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 You can turn the fan on/off, up/down, A/C on/off, temp up/down, recirculation on/off all with real buttons. How is this bad? Try driving a new Cadillac. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160702/7dbbf35e7f2b06f4aed7624411dabeed.jpg Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk You can somewhat but some features you still have to use the touchscreen for, like heated seats wheel, etc. plus using those controls behind the shifter while driving a manual is a pain in the ass. I'm all for removing computers and smart shit from cars and making them like they used to be. At least they just worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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