wagner Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Your .gov at work yet again :dumb: http://bangshift.com/general-news/sema-alert-the-epa-is-actively-trying-to-kill-racing-trying-to-ban-converting-street-cars-into-race-cars/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Reason 1,234 why it's time for the libs in office to go.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Saw this posted by freiburger on FB earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHIEF Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 What a huge problem racecars are in Merica. Go home government, you're drunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Has anyone seen the actual proposed regulation? The only source on this is SEMA's press release, which seems alarmist. It says the EPA wants to prohibit turning road cars into race cars, but then seems to suggest that the actual regulation doesn't do that at all, and would instead prohibit removing originally equipped emissions control devices from road cars that have been turned into race cars. And in the era of EPA certified 700hp Hellcats, I'm not sure this is the end of days SEMA is making it out to be. I'm open to being convinced, but so far I've heard one side of the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Has anyone seen the actual proposed regulation? The only source on this is SEMA's press release, which seems alarmist. It says the EPA wants to prohibit turning road cars into race cars, but then seems to suggest that the actual regulation doesn't do that at all, and would instead prohibit removing originally equipped emissions control devices from road cars that have been turned into race cars. And in the era of EPA certified 700hp Hellcats, I'm not sure this is the end of days SEMA is making it out to be. I'm open to being convinced, but so far I've heard one side of the story. Typically this is how it always starts though. Everything is vague enough so they they can tailor it to restrict as much as they see fit, until the backlash starts. Then they seem to back off and claim that wasn't what they meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Typically this is how it always starts though. Everything is vague enough so they they can tailor it to restrict as much as they see fit, until the backlash starts. Then they seem to back off and claim that wasn't what they meant. Color me unconvinced by your doom and gloom. I found the actual proposed changed on GRM. Are you all ready for this? Grab onto your nutsacks and get ready to burn with the rage of a thousand suns. (b) Note that, in applying the criterion in paragraph (a)(2) of this section, vehicles that are clearly intended for operation on highways are motor vehicles. Absence of a particular safety feature is relevant only when absence of that feature would prevent operation on highways." Whew, right? Those overreaching motherfuckers. OK, what's paragraph (a)(2), you might be wondering? It's one of the categories of vehicles exempt from emissions standards. (2) The vehicle lacks features customarily associated with safe and practical street or highway use, such features including, but not being limited to, a reverse gear (except in the case of motorcycles), a differential, or safety features required by state and/or federal law; So if you took the cat off your 240sx drift machine because you welded the diff and therefore made it a "race car," the EPA is saying they're not going to buy your BS excuse anymore because it's clearly intended for operation on highways and a welded diff doesn't prevent operation on highways. Likewise, you can take out the passenger airbag and claim it lacks enough safety features to count as a race car. However, if you have a full cage and no headlights, it's clearly not intended for operation on highways and you're good to go. In short, if I'm interpreting this correctly, SEMA is a bunch of weasels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowHBK Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 the actual regulation doesn't do that at all, and would instead prohibit removing originally equipped emissions control devices from road cars that have been turned into race cars. Where is the fun in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Someone on GRM also pointed out that this is most likely targeted at asshats who roll coal, and the mods that allow them to do so. It's also most likely impossible to enforce, for what it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Color me unconvinced by your doom and gloom. I found the actual proposed changed on GRM. Are you all ready for this? Grab onto your nutsacks and get ready to burn with the rage of a thousand suns. Whew, right? Those overreaching motherfuckers. OK, what's paragraph (a)(2), you might be wondering? It's one of the categories of vehicles exempt from emissions standards. So if you took the cat off your 240sx drift machine because you welded the diff and therefore made it a "race car," the EPA is saying they're not going to buy your BS excuse anymore because it's clearly intended for operation on highways and a welded diff doesn't prevent operation on highways. Likewise, you can take out the passenger airbag and claim it lacks enough safety features to count as a race car. However, if you have a full cage and no headlights, it's clearly not intended for operation on highways and you're good to go. In short, if I'm interpreting this correctly, SEMA is a bunch of weasels. I am not trying to convince anyone. I am also waiting for more info, but unless it's brought to light, it's unlikely anyone will give much more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattKatz Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Itll NEVER Happen while we walk this earth. Racing has existed since men could mount animals....It will never go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Color me unconvinced by your doom and gloom. I found the actual proposed changed on GRM. Are you all ready for this? Grab onto your nutsacks and get ready to burn with the rage of a thousand suns. Whew, right? Those overreaching motherfuckers. OK, what's paragraph (a)(2), you might be wondering? It's one of the categories of vehicles exempt from emissions standards. So if you took the cat off your 240sx drift machine because you welded the diff and therefore made it a "race car," the EPA is saying they're not going to buy your BS excuse anymore because it's clearly intended for operation on highways and a welded diff doesn't prevent operation on highways. Likewise, you can take out the passenger airbag and claim it lacks enough safety features to count as a race car. However, if you have a full cage and no headlights, it's clearly not intended for operation on highways and you're good to go. In short, if I'm interpreting this correctly, SEMA is a bunch of weasels. can you post a link or a citation so I can read this? I'm really curious as to what the whole of the proposed act says and if there are any legislation notes. I don't know if I would go so far as to call SEMA a bunch of weasels, but it does feel like they are overselling it a bit. I did find a full except of the relevent part that SEMA is frightened of and emphasized some of the parts I thought relevent: (2) The provisions of 40 CFR 1068.235 that allow for modifying certified engines for competition do not apply for heavy-duty vehicles or heavy-duty engines. Certified motor vehicles and motor vehicle engines and their emission control devices must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition or if they become nonroad vehicles or engines; anyone modifying a certified motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine for any reason is subject to the tampering and defeat device prohibitions of 40 CFR 1068.101(b) and 42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Note that a new engine that will be installed in a vehicle that will be used solely for competition may be excluded from the requirements of this part based on a determination that the vehicle is not a motor vehicle under 40 CFR 85.1703. so there are a couple of things here. 1) there is all this talk about Heavy duty vehicles - what does that really mean so I did a little more digging and... A. Does this action apply to me? This proposed action would affect companies that manufacture, sell, or import into the United States new heavy-duty engines and new Class 2b through 8 trucks, including combination tractors, all types of buses, vocational vehicles including municipal, commercial, recreational vehicles, and commercial trailers as well as 3⁄4-ton and 1-ton pickup trucks and vans. The heavy-duty category incorporates all motor vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating of 8,500 lbs or greater, and the engines that power them, except for medium-duty passenger vehicles already covered by the greenhouse gas standards and corporate average fuel economy standards issued for light-duty model year 2017–2025 vehicles. So the proposed regulation does not apply to passenger cars but rather big fuck off pickups and larger. SEMA does represent racing organizations that do race things like semi rigs, tractors, and pickup trucks so there is still an interested group there, but it is not as big as they are making it out to be. Greg's example of your 240sx drift car isn't covered by this. I want to read the rest of the whole thing before I pass judgement but it sounds like if you race a truck you will have to start with a new engine and you cannot modify an existing engine for racing without retaining the emissions equipment (I saw something in the definition about the engine being new or used is dependent on when the crank was installed so I want to read further). The Government's history has been to interpret emissions equipment very broadly so that can include the ECM and it's data, ie you can't reflash it for a new tune - possibly. I think I also saw in my skimming that this applies to vehicles 2004 and newer so if you are racing daddy's old tractor built in 1994 in the tractor pulls you don't have to go back to whatever emissions equipment was on the thing in 1994. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 never mind - found the whole thing: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-07-13/pdf/2015-15500.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Has anyone seen the actual proposed regulation? The only source on this is SEMA's press release, which seems alarmist. It says the EPA wants to prohibit turning road cars into race cars, but then seems to suggest that the actual regulation doesn't do that at all, and would instead prohibit removing originally equipped emissions control devices from road cars that have been turned into race cars. And in the era of EPA certified 700hp Hellcats, I'm not sure this is the end of days SEMA is making it out to be. I'm open to being convinced, but so far I've heard one side of the story. Essentially they are saying sure buy a Hell Cat...Change the intake on it removing the hydrocarbon pad inline and it is a "race car" now, to the scrapper? This has been the movement for years; so I am assuming it is now getting more official. Ask Katech why they wont install a intake on your brand new Corvette, their reply will be because they will be fined by the EPA for emissions control device modification. . .Same this goes for MANY big time OE performance companies, and how they all are doing only specific installs on certified items, they are very regulated (thanks SEMA lolz) So they are not going to say you cant make a production VIN a race car specifically however, if you altered its OEM emissions control devices (EGR for example), well now its to the scrapper, or fines whatever? I think we do have to get real about emissions, however this is a silly knee jerk code to try and do so...I'd venture cows do more harm then race cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Essentially they are saying sure buy a Hell Cat...Change the intake on it removing the hydrocarbon pad inline and it is a "race car" now, to the scrapper. So they are not going to say you cant make a production VIN a race car specifically however, if you altered its OEM emissions control devices (EGR for example), well now its to the scrapper. I think we do have to get real about emissions, however this is a silly knee jerk code to try and do so...I'd venture cows do more harm then race cars. This is my interpretation of it, hence why I'm waiting for more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Essentially they are saying sure buy a Hell Cat...Change the intake on it removing the hydrocarbon pad inline and it is a "race car" now, to the scrapper? Firstly, no that's not what they're saying; Geeto's links are correct and his clarification is valid. This only applies to heavy duty trucks. Secondly, it's already against EPA regulations to remove emissions equipment, has been for years, and the sky hasn't fallen. The EPA isn't interested in home hobbyists, although as you note, shops are reluctant to do it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Firstly, no that's not what they're saying; Geeto's links are correct and his clarification is valid. This only applies to heavy duty trucks. Secondly, it's already against EPA regulations to remove emissions equipment, has been for years, and the sky hasn't fallen. The EPA isn't interested in home hobbyists, although as you note, shops are reluctant to do it for you. I am not preaching the sky is falling...I don't honestly believe the EPA is dumb enough to go out and fine every Tom Dick and Harry, however they will go after the suppliers and effectively choke off the industry, that I can picture. Also i am not so sure it only applies to heavy duty trucks, and I see Geetos quoted definition, it will be interesting to see what they expand upon in July http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/climate/documents/hd-ghg-fr-notice.pdf Start On page 862 if you're interested. It takes a minute to decipher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10phone2 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 It's easy to say that it's only heavy duty trucks. The problem is that it will only be a matter of time before they go after cars/motorcycles. Give an inch and we may end up losing a mile. I'm willing to bet there is already a friend of a politician that is setup to profit off this and will be able to fund money back one way or another regardless of party affiliation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharris89 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Anyone else hear the proposal to replace the 50 stars on our flag with a Prius? Its a beige one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordell Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Anyone else hear the proposal to replace the 50 stars on our flag with a Prius? Its a beige one. Lol. Even if it was directly pointed at me, who is going to enforce it anyway? My cars are technically illegal now, but I don't live in California or an emission testing area so...:dumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeesammy Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/tell-epa-withdraw-its-proposal-prohibit-conversion-vehicles-racecars-0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Lol. Even if it was directly pointed at me, who is going to enforce it anyway? My cars are technically illegal now, but I don't live in California or an emission testing area so...:dumb: Not yet at least. I remember as a kid when they talked about the emission testing coming to our county, and much like this the "experts" said it would never happen because the EPA would not or could not do it. Guess the fuck what? It happened and changed how people with performance cars had to do things in northeast Ohio. The smart people in the industry right now are very worried about this, as they should be. Many of them have seen what the swipe of a bureaucratic agency pen can do (see any business based in the republic of California) and understand you never underestimate the power stupid in our government. Lots of lobby money is being thrown at this to tighten that language to be sure it does not hurt the aftermarket industry any more I can tell you that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robochan Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a28135/heres-what-the-epas-track-car-proposal-actually-means/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a28135/heres-what-the-epas-track-car-proposal-actually-means/ the only concerning thing about the EPA's statements is the mention of Dirt Bikes and snowmobiles, which don't seem to be referenced earlier. I think there are other issues they are combating with this as well which we are not talking about and that is the use of industrial diesel generators as powerplants for trucks and using the generator's emissions certification to pass inspection. So if you have a 2007 Peterbilt 379 and it blows it's mill so you stick a 1980 DD series 92 generator plant in the nose to haul your stuff, don't expect to pass emissions. Honestly I don't know how often this happens but it is one of the things the act does call out. as far as whether it impacts bro trucks rolling coal? yes it does and honestly fuck those guys anyway. I don't know how they plan to enforce it, but seriously fuck those coal rollers again just because. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2016/06/debunking-the-myths-epa-proposal-to-prohibit-conversion-of-vehicles-into-racecars?utm_source=ET&utm_medium=email&utm_content=50765031&utm_campaign=eNews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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