ShowHBK Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Should Apple create a backdoor into the iPhone's operating system? I have been watching this story for quite sometime now and I have been interested in asking what viewpoint CR has on the issue. National Security Vs. Privacy? TL;DR (Too long didn't read) Version: The FBI has in their possession an iPhone belonging to one of the dead terrorists associated with the 2015 San Bernardo attacks. The standard (Apple) encryption on the phone is so strong that the FBI is unable to extract (possible) data about the attack. As a result, the FBI is asking Apple to create a custom iOS version with a "backdoor" to use on the phone so that they can extract the data. Apple has refused to create the backdoor, but has complied and helped the FBI in multiple different ways. The FBI is threatening to force them to create a backdoor. What is encryption? This video does a good job explaining things Should Apple comply? It's a heated debate. On one side you have people claiming that this is an invasion of our privacy, and on the other you have people crying for national security. Some people don't see that this could open up a Pandora's Box by Apple designing a "backdoor" within iOS. With 13.9% of all phone's in the USA running iOS this does not seem like such a huge number, but if Apple were forced to comply and if Apple were to create the backdoor then Google (82.8%) and other companies could be next. Now, I understand that this would not be a rollout of the backdoor to everyone's device, that would be ridiculous. The simple fact that something like that could exist is scary to think about. http://bgr.com/2016/03/15/fbi-vs-apple-encryption-strengthening-oops/ As a direct result of this controversy many major companies are now increasing their encryption to protect their customers data. Apple's letter to their customers outlines things very well which can be found here. I honestly think that the government has gone too far with this request. Yes, National Security is important and preventing disasters from happening is always a good thing, but what is being asked of Apple could be copied, abused, and possibly stolen in the future. Just think, if there were a universal key that could be used on any cell phone in the USA to get all the phone's data at any time. Crazy, right? So what does CR think? should Apple create the backdoor? or refuse? Maybe there is another way to get the data without compromising security? who knows... I'm interested to know what you all think of the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 My personal belief is that Apple should not comply with this. “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littleguy Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Agreed, this would be a dangerous precedent if they were to comply and it becomes a question of: 1. Does an American company have the right to make a product that the government can't search/control? 2. Can the government force an American company to create something that does not currently exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwashmycar Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 x2. They need to stand their ground. Even if I were to go right now and somehow threaten national security I have constitutional rights. We all do. It is Apples right not to comply I would think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmrmnhrm Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 What the FBI doesn't seem to get is that the US Gov't is a *HUGE* purchaser of iPhones, and if Apple is forced to backdoor their own encryption and anti-theft protective measures, guess what'll happen when Russia, China, and Iran get hold of a phone. (Nevermind that we can't even trust our friends not to spy on us.... Israel....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 The FBI is overreaching with their ask. They are using a singular incident to push for the ability to spy on everybody. Apple is not preventing them from accessing the data on this singular phone, they are spinning it to look that way. The FBI, CIA, NSA, etc....have already had success in strong arming app developers to create exploits to all them to collect data but as you can imagine it is inconsistent. If this seems like new territory it is not, but this is a new level for the ask. Don't think your angry birds app is spying on you? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/spies-use-angry-birds-and-other-apps-to-track-people-documents-show/ What you are seeing is the eventual conflict that was put into motion way back in 2001 by the patriot act and the (lax) privacy protection standards put in place on electronic communications. I am actually surprised it took this long. The argument I am surprised the FBI is not making is one of chain of control over evidence. A backdoor exploit would allow them to create a clear chain of evidence where as receiving the data from a third party like apple muddies the chain a little and might require apple to testify as to the control of the evidence. They already have the ability to gain access to the data via warrant so I am really surprised this hasn't been brought up yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfunnyryan Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 The death of Scalia is letting them push this hard. He was a huge 4th amendment rights advocate. This new guy that just got sworn in started crying. We fucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 The death of Scalia is letting them push this hard. He was a huge 4th amendment rights advocate. This new guy that just got sworn in started crying. We fucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 The death of Scalia is letting them push this hard. He was a huge 4th amendment rights advocate. speaking of which just saw that Merrick Garland just got the nomination to fill Scalia's spot. It's a pretty bold nomination, and a bit of a "fuck you, try me" message to the republicans that said they would boycott any nominee. Plus he's pretty moderate which is good for the country. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/17/us/politics/obama-supreme-court-nominee.html?_r=0 But I don't think that's it. The entire Court is generally opposed to 4th amendment privacy violations not just Scalia. FBI better hope it doesn't get to the supreme court but then again the appeals process they are looking at is at least 2+ years and they have to hope the SC will grant cert. (which they are likely to do given the high profile nature) and not just affirm the lower courts decision. This new guy that just got sworn in started crying. We fucked. who did what now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 I think it's amazing that given the budget of DOD/DOJ, the NSA/FBI/CIA/DHS can't manage to get into this phone themselves. It should be a testament to the ineptitude of those departments that they're trying to force a private company to compromise their integrity and the trust of their customers because they fucked up hard enough despite a budget that eclipses many nations (DOD: $500+bn, DOJ $27bn). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littleguy Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 I have heard that the NSA could get into the phone if it wanted to, but they don't help the FBI/DOJ very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Mart Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 I heard a different version of what the FBI wanted to do: The FBI is not asking for a back door into every iPhone. They told the FBI they would give them the phone to keep and destroy (or do whatever they want with) after giving them the data they are looking for. This is a far cry from a script that gets into every iPhone they want. Two parts on this: A apple has done this for them on several cases, but for some reason they will not on this one B apple does this for China on a major scale. Not saying all of this is true, but I heard it from an FBI director on a podcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 I heard a different version of what the FBI wanted to do: The FBI is not asking for a back door into every iPhone. They told the FBI they would give them the phone to keep and destroy (or do whatever they want with) after giving them the data they are looking for. This is a far cry from a script that gets into every iPhone they want. Two parts on this: A apple has done this for them on several cases, but for some reason they will not on this one B apple does this for China on a major scale. Not saying all of this is true, but I heard it from an FBI director on a podcast. You think a director at an agency that started COINTELPRO would mislead the public like that? pish posh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 B apple does this for China on a major scale. china does this for china on a major scale, whether apple is involved or not. Some China made hardware comes with backdoors from the moment of inception. This was a huge PR problem for Lenovo 2 years ago when testing showed a number of backdoors in their hardware. There is part of this that may be driven by the FBI wanting to catch up to the rest of the world in terms of spying through personal technology, but it might require a regime change for it to get traction in the US (and by regime change I mean revolution and installing a dictatorship where the US government used to stand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractor Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 I think it's amazing that given the budget of DOD/DOJ, the NSA/FBI/CIA/DHS can't manage to get into this phone themselves. It should be a testament to the ineptitude of those departments that they're trying to force a private company to compromise their integrity and the trust of their customers because they fucked up hard enough despite a budget that eclipses many nations (DOD: $500+bn, DOJ $27bn). Many nations that likely have hackers that already hack iphones before breakfast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigOxley Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 I think it's amazing that given the budget of DOD/DOJ, the NSA/FBI/CIA/DHS can't manage to get into this phone themselves. It should be a testament to the ineptitude of those departments that they're trying to force a private company to compromise their integrity and the trust of their customers because they fucked up hard enough despite a budget that eclipses many nations (DOD: $500+bn, DOJ $27bn). My guess is there is something keeping them from "legally" breaking the phone. They probably want consent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC K9 Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 I don't like Apple. I don't like the Gov. I would back apple on on this and tell the Gov to take a hike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowHBK Posted March 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 I don't like Apple. I don't like the Gov. I would back apple on on this and tell the Gov to take a hike. best TL;DR reply 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) I heard a different version of what the FBI wanted to do: The FBI is not asking for a back door into every iPhone. They told the FBI they would give them the phone to keep and destroy (or do whatever they want with) after giving them the data they are looking for. This is a far cry from a script that gets into every iPhone they want. Two parts on this: A apple has done this for them on several cases, but for some reason they will not on this one B apple does this for China on a major scale. Not saying all of this is true, but I heard it from an FBI director on a podcast. Kinda along the lines of what I heard. My understanding is the FBI just wants them to shut down the auto-wipe that is in the phone so they get more than XX number of chances to crack it. They aren't asking for a "back door" they just want the alarm system and pit bulls turned off and locked up so they can have-at-it. In this respect, I'm on the side of the FBI because I have ZERO concern for fuck up cowards that go around shooting innocents. They are also not asking for this globally but on this and other very specific devices they have. Again, there are a handful of cases where people were killed and their cases are linked to a phone that is secured. Let's insure the right thing is done and their killers are brought to justice. Flame suit on. Edited March 17, 2016 by TTQ B4U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littleguy Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 My understanding is the FBI just wants them to shut down the auto-wipe that is in the phone so they get more than XX number of chances to crack it. They aren't asking for a "back door" they just want the alarm system and pit bulls turned off and locked up so they can have-at-it. Fyi, the auto wipe is the security feature that prevents the phone from being hacked. The only way to turn it off it to write a completely new version of the OS for the FBI to supposedly use for this one case only. In this respect, I'm on the side of the FBI because I have ZERO concern for fuck up cowards that go around shooting innocents. They are also not asking for this globally but on this and other very specific devices they have. Again, there are a handful of cases where people were killed and their cases are linked to a phone that is secured. Let's insure the right thing is done and their killers are brought to justice. Flame suit on. I feel like the FBI is using people's patriotism and fear of terrorism to get what they want here. What information exactly would be on his phone that would give us any more knowledge about what happened in San Bernadino or about the people who did it? They chose this case as the one to have a big fight about because they wanted to play on people's emotions because what they really want is for real incription to be illegal, which is a bad thing for everyone, especially the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coaster Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 I feel like the FBI is using people's patriotism and fear of terrorism to get what they want continuously. There fixed that for you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noobiemcnooberson. Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 It is the county provided work phone from my understanding not his personal phone destroyed in the shoot out so it's highly unlikely anything of value would be on it anyway. The county also had the means to back for the phone through a program they are paying for but never bothered setting up. Imo it's a power grab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmrmnhrm Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 It is the county provided work phone from my understanding not his personal phone destroyed in the shoot out so it's highly unlikely anything of value would be on it anyway. The county also had the means to back for the phone through a program they are paying for but never bothered setting up. Imo it's a power grab. The county has also admitted that they CHANGED the PIN code at the request of the FBI, and apparently nobody bothered to write down the new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Fyi, the auto wipe is the security feature that prevents the phone from being hacked. The only way to turn it off it to write a completely new version of the OS for the FBI to supposedly use for this one case only. I don't think it's for this case only. I've read about other cases, one involving a murder of a young mother, that are in limbo because of the same thing. Call me odd but if my wife or son were killed and there was potentially evidence on their phone that could help, I'd be one PO'd husband and father if Apple denied me and them justice because of this. In the case I will have to find that's exactly what's happening, the parents are fighting to get their daughters phone unlocked to help solve her murder. I feel like the FBI is using people's patriotism and fear of terrorism to get what they want here. What information exactly would be on his phone that would give us any more knowledge about what happened in San Bernadino or about the people who did it? The fear here goes both ways and the San Bernadino case isn't the only one. It just garners more news that Jody Smith and Tim Jones or other situations that likely didn't hit the nightly news. They chose this case as the one to have a big fight about because they wanted to play on people's emotions because what they really want is for real incription to be illegal, which is a bad thing for everyone, especially the US. Again, it's not all about San Bernadino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowHBK Posted March 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Well, I get where you are coming from with the whole "do anything for justice" mentality and I would agree with you that justice is important in any case whether it be a terrorist attack or a murder. I think what Apple is trying to say here is that all their customers are people, real people with personal data that is theirs and theirs alone. Apple has worked hard over the years to keep their customer's data safe by introducing great encryption measures and security features to keep data from falling into the wrong hands. I almost feel like this falls under the same guidelines as "freedom of speech" in a sense that if I ever saw someone shouting racist remarks in public I would think that person is down right awful and has no place in modern society, but at the same time I would fight for the right of every person to say whatever the hell they want on public ground. In turn, Apple is fighting for the right of privacy and security no mater what the case or person. your data is privet and belongs to you. Also, the FBI is literally ordering Apple to comply to a request that is unjust given the situation. This would not be just a "one time thing" once a backdoor, weakness, exploit, or any other form of tampering is created then that would open up a whole new world for other departments/people to take advantage of it. Security is important whether you are watching stupid cat videos on your phone or you are a CIA agent with classified documents. It would be a nightmare if someone out there had the power to backdoor into your phone whenever they wanted to... Hello NSA!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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