Mandalay Bay Shooting

[Furloaf]

I can't imagine a way that could be determined from bodies, too chaotic. Plenty of rounds must have went into structures though.

[wagner]

I can't imagine a way that could be determined from bodies, too chaotic. Plenty of rounds must have went into structures though.

 

True, very true.

[BigOxley]

 

Timeline officially changes. Getting funkier.

 

 

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[Geeesammy]

Initial story was guest below was former mil, reported shots then security guard went to the correct floor, shooter spotted him via cams and opened up, now this?

 

If it looks like a duck.....

[BigOxley]

This stinks of a honey pot sting gone real fucking bad

 

 

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[Red Beard]

Oceans 14?

[10phone2]

I did stumble across a whiteboard that they had done the audible forensic analysis showing two different sound waves in the videos showing a second shooter. The problem is with the odd ball orientation of the high rise buildings, the sound reverberations off the buildings may very well give the impression of second shooter. I have witnessed 1st hand an audio engineer sound testing the main stage at the 4th of July in Kaneohe, Hawaii and having to deal with sound bouncing off the mountains 10+ miles away.

[Diamonds]

Geeto, define the gun show loophole. I'd like to see how much you know.

 

Define it.

Tell me why it's a problem.

 

And then I'll reply to your novel.

 

Geeto?

[Geeto67]

Geeto?

 

This thread has become second shooter conspiracy central and I’ve lost interest.

 

I dunno what you are waiting for other than the “loophole” is exploited by merchants who pretend to be private individuals so they can circumvent Brady bill background checks, interstate sales restrictions, and in some cases sales taxes. Merchants move more units than a private individuals generally would and they don’t have to keep any records like an FFL merchant would.

 

On its face it may look like they are screwing the gubment out of revenue, but really they are screwing private sellers, FFL merchants, and the general public.

 

It’s more nuanced than that, esp with the different state laws in play, but really - lost interest. I would love to sit and write another novel about the Kennedy assassination, a non violent coup d’etat, and buying guns anonymously through the mail - but, nah.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Geeto67

[Diamonds]

This thread has become second shooter conspiracy central and I’ve lost interest.

 

I dunno what you are waiting for other than the “loophole” is exploited by merchants who pretend to be private individuals so they can circumvent Brady bill background checks, interstate sales restrictions, and in some cases sales taxes. Merchants move more units than a private individuals generally would and they don’t have to keep any records like an FFL merchant would.

 

On its face it may look like they are screwing the gubment out of revenue, but really they are screwing private sellers, FFL merchants, and the general public.

 

It’s more nuanced than that, esp with the different state laws in play, but really - lost interest. I would love to sit and write another novel about the Kennedy assassination, a non violent coup d’etat, and buying guns anonymously through the mail - but, nah.

 

My sense is... I can do 2 things...

 

1. Get a novel-reply

2. by calling you out for saying that your "lack of interest" is really a "lack of real-world knowledge" where you can't reply on something that someone else wrote because I am your proverbial "horses-mouth". And, that my actual experience would trump anything you've "read"....

 

Now, let's see that sudden spark of interest big boy....

[Geeto67]

My sense is... I can do 2 things...

 

1. Get a novel-reply

2. by calling you out for saying that your "lack of interest" is really a "lack of real-world knowledge" where you can't reply on something that someone else wrote because I am your proverbial "horses-mouth". And, that my actual experience would trump anything you've "read"....

 

Now, let's see that sudden spark of interest big boy....

 

 

Nerp

[Orion]

My sense is... I can do 2 things...

 

1. Get a novel-reply

2. by calling you out for saying that your "lack of interest" is really a "lack of real-world knowledge" where you can't reply on something that someone else wrote because I am your proverbial "horses-mouth". And, that my actual experience would trump anything you've "read"....

 

Now, let's see that sudden spark of interest big boy....

 

So, out of curiosity, what are YOU actually arguing, Bob? That there be no regulation on firearms whatsoever? Your position (outside of "Geeto is wrong") is somewhat vague, insofar as we all know that you are conservative, but beyond that *shrug*. You said you knew how to fix the problem, lets hear it.

[Diamonds]

So, out of curiosity, what are YOU actually arguing, Bob? That there be no regulation on firearms whatsoever? Your position (outside of "Geeto is wrong") is somewhat vague, insofar as we all know that you are conservative, but beyond that *shrug*. You said you knew how to fix the problem, lets hear it.

 

I'm not arguing. I'm asking him to cite why he thinks that the "gun show loophole" (a popular-coined term) is the problem. The point is... liberals don't see what the problem actually is... instead, they rattle off things like "gun show loophole" without research and merely just playing the proverbial "telephone game".

 

For my next statement, we are going to assume one constant (not that I agree) for a second: "The gun show loophole is a bad thing".

 

Research that would show that the "gun show loophole" (assuming the loophole part has to do with private sales sans NICS check) is 1% of the "problem". My goal was to educate him/others on the fact that private sales (which are legal in Ohio) occur in many other places than a gun show.

 

All of this "not all sellers of guns are licensed" is perfectly legal (in Ohio). I sell guns that I'm tired of all the time. It's legal. I use armslist. Its as if the liberal agenda is to stop our ability to be visible to others with what we are selling. And, the "gun show" isn't the problem when there are multiple socialmedia/internet outlets to "set up the sale".

 

 

"Gun Show Loophole" is a term used by people that want to spit venom without knowledge.... like... protestors.

[Orion]

Ok, so, in your opinion, what can be done to "fix" (not the right word, I just mean "to improve the situation") the issue? Or are you of the mind that nothing can be done, and that we should just get comfy with the idea that every now and then, someone will snap and several people will lose their lives?

 

(Not trying to troll, I'm legitimately interested in what the other side has to say about this)

[Diamonds]

Ok, so, in your opinion, what can be done to "fix" (not the right word, I just mean "to improve the situation") the issue? Or are you of the mind that nothing can be done, and that we should just get comfy with the idea that every now and then, someone will snap and several people will lose their lives?

 

(Not trying to troll, I'm legitimately interested in what the other side has to say about this)

 

From the liberal side of view-you'd need to require all private gun sales to be had with a NICS check/transfer. For local private sellers you'd need to meet at a gun store and do a proper transfer.

 

Keep in mind, it won't stop mass shootings. It will cause more (most?) people to do a proper NICS transfer. I'm not sure what that solves. But, it would limit the average felon (who cannot own a gun legally) from buying one from me because I posted one for sale on Armlist, Facebook, IG, or met him at a gun show. Because, for a private sale to be legal in Ohio... all he has to do is show me that he has an Ohio ID.

 

So, my mindset is that "something can be done". but, all it would do is get the rule-followers (like me) to follow the rules. The people that want to kill people with guns could: A. also be rule followers in obtaining guns... and B. easily skirt the rules and still get guns.

 

 

 

THE DIFFERENCE IS THIS: Liberals think it will solve something because most of them don't see what (we gun owners) see/know. I submit to you that it will not have the impact they hoped for.

 

It's just like watching pro football "that idiot running back should have shot that gap and gained 10 yards".... I can say that all I want. I've never actually played football, been around a locker room, understood what goes on behind the scenes, etc...

[BStowers023]

I mean look at what we've tried to do to "fix" the drug problem in this country. You really think creating more laws will change anything with the "gun problem?"

[Diamonds]

I mean look at what we've tried to do to "fix" the drug problem in this country. You really think creating more laws will change anything with the "gun problem?"

 

Exactly, if people want something... ingenuity/money/secrecy will always prevail.

[Orion]

So, in actuality, you do believe that the best thing to do is nothing.

 

(Again, not trolling.)

[BStowers023]

So, in actuality, you do believe that the best thing to do is nothing.

 

(Again, not trolling.)

 

 

I think what he's saying is there's really nothing you can do. Waving your hands around and throwing a temper tantrum isn't fixing anything. There are too many guns in this country to think creating more laws will somehow prevent gun violence. Unless you're advocating the police going around household to household demanding everyone's guns then yeah, there really isn't anything we can do.

[TTQ B4U]

So, in actuality, you do believe that the best thing to do is nothing.

 

Is it the "best" thing? Probably not but it's not a bad thing. The incidents like this are still rare and the total deaths per year still in the grand scheme quite low.

 

The question becomes what to do and to what extent given out of the 100M+ gun owners the problem still only really involves a handful of bad people. (mass shooters that is).

 

To over-react and to politicize it is stupid, so old-school in terms of how our system functions that I support breaking that trend which is IMO a greater thread to our making real progress than the shooters are to our freedoms overall.

[Diamonds]

So, in actuality, you do believe that the best thing to do is nothing.

 

(Again, not trolling.)

 

Based on my views. Yes.

 

And if a liberal knew what I knew, and was reasonable... they may agree.

 

You can't stop mass shootings. There are too many guns available/already-owned.

 

Just like...

 

You also can't shop people from doing drugs. There are too many drugs available/black-market channels.

[Geeto67]

 

Research that would show that the "gun show loophole" (assuming the loophole part has to do with private sales sans NICS check) is 1% of the "problem". My goal was to educate him/others on the fact that private sales (which are legal in Ohio) occur in many other places than a gun show.

 

1) it's really hard to collect trustworthy research on something that is largely undocumented (like the private transfer sale).

 

2) It isn't the "whole" plan. If you go back and read my lengthy post you'll see there is a lot in there, of which....yeah....that thing that has a name: "The gun show loophole" is only a part of.

 

3) and yes there are people who generally say stuff and don't know what they are talking about. I kinda feel that way about nearly every pro-gun person that talks about the constitution and uses the words "shall not be infringed" as punctuation. What do you want me to say? there are lots of morons "on both sides", but there are a few that aren't. I was pretty clear about the "loophole" being specific to a class at sellers at gun shows that are basically using it to circumvent federal law (which is kind of the definition of loophole) and not apply to every private seller. So what else do you want? If you think I got something wrong then spell it out - don't be that asshole that just shits on a stereotype and runs. if you want to have a sensible conversation then be prepared to contribute.

 

The Brady Bill and the 1968 Gun bill were not designed to stop "mass shootings", They were primarily designed to prevent anonymous presidential assassinations, to create a paper trail for evidence collection in the wake of a presidential assassination, and hopefully put some kind of initial check regarding selling guns to the mentally ill so they could carry out a presidential assassination. After it was reported that Lee Harvey Oswald purchased his rifle anonymously mail order the NRA and congress worked on a bill that restricted interstate sales of firearms anonymously. Following the attempted assassination of Reagan, the Brady Bill was put in motion to put some check in place on the mentally ill and ineligible people from getting guns through legal channels. Between those two events there were literally 17 mass shootings in this country where nothing changed.

 

That 1968 bill and NRA sponsorship by the way was what led Harlan Carter to seize control of the NRA with his special brand of "shall not be infringed" nonsense - and kind of how we got here today. He firmly believed that no control law is acceptable ever, and mass shootings and criminals having guns is an acceptable price we pay for freedom (see...not a new concept). This is still 100% the position of the NRA and why we will never make progress on the issue.

 

Any situation is a collection of risk factors. Legislation is one of the ways governments can mitigate risk factors. The current system could be more efficient, even if we are just looking to hold the status quo on the current level of legislative control - but in order to do that, the hard line no control is acceptable ever and "price of freedom" have to go for that to happen. If you believe that nothing can be done, you only add support to the hard-line position and nothing will get done.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Geeto67

[LJ]

I kinda have to agree with Geeto on this. The way guys who are actually dealers circumvent the laws by claiming its just their personal collections is an issue. Cracking down on enforcement in that area along with enforcement of other existing laws can go a long way.

[Red Beard]

The only thing that NICS transfers will do is document the trail of the firearm to the last legal sale of it. Once it gets into the wrong hands it doesn't matter. So it's going to make two things happen:

 

1- Make those who are legally purchasing a firearm jump through one more hoop (not that big a deal)

2- Give the govt just one more way to Tax/add fees to a purchase of a fire arm (just like title ship of cars)

 

Now don't get me wrong, I am all for a background check especially if an individual has a felonious record, or mental history. But at the end of the day, if someone wants a firearm bad enough, they will find a way to get one. The supply is to plentiful. The only thing this will allow is to say, " You sold this guy a gun. He passed the background check, went apeshit afterward, but you still sold it to him."

 

So unless they pass a law that would hold all previous owners accountable for said firearm, then it's a mute point. Even if they did take it to that level, the only thing they would have to say is the gun was stolen.

[Robochan]

So, in actuality, you do believe that the best thing to do is nothing.

 

(Again, not trolling.)

Couple options,

 

Make killing people illegal.

 

Mental health checkpoints at every state border and air port, any hotel or any place people may go that are abnormal to them. Straight guy at a gay bar? Mental health status needs checked.

 

Ban all guns which may decrease the number of people killed in a mass killing from a crazy persons but not affect the number of mass killings that happen.

 

Ban all men. Almost all mass killings have been by men and banning them will solve that problem and decrease the numbers of all kinds of murder.

 

Or realize that freedom comes with a price. As long as humans are involved people make mistakes, outliers will show and people will die. Hopefully once we get out of the stoneage of mental health treatment/acceptance and start to understand it we will make progress to lower the number of incendents like this but until then, people will go crazy and kill their significant other, crash cars, make mistakes at work and die, smoke and slowly kill everyone around them. Its human nature.