Mandalay Bay Shooting

[Geeto67]

Or realize that freedom comes with a price. As long as humans are involved people make mistakes, outliers will show and people will die. Hopefully once we get out of the stoneage of mental health treatment/acceptance and start to understand it we will make progress to lower the number of incendents like this but until then, people will go crazy and kill their significant other, crash cars, make mistakes at work and die, smoke and slowly kill everyone around them. Its human nature.

 

Everything comes with a price. But you know what? it doesn't stop us from making progress reducing the cost spent on all other activities. We went from nearly 50,000 fatalities per 100 million vehicle-miles traveled in 1921 to less than 10,000 in 2014, all while the number of cars on the road increased by 1000+% through laws and government incentives that promoted safety innovation in the industry. We've done the same with medicine, with crime, with pretty much everything except guns. In 1977 someone came along and said "this is the price we have to pay" and then fought against every effort to make that "price" cost us less. It's not a natural situation - the natural situation is to keep moving toward efficiency but in this case it's intentionally stifled.

 

Even when people invent a safety measure independently, the NRA has often interfered with their distribution or acceptance - citing it as an alternative form of "control". We a willing to have a remote key operate a 2 ton vehicle safely for hundreds of thousands of miles, but can't use the same tech to make sure a firearm can only be fired by one person? It's foolish.

[BStowers023]

Everything comes with a price. But you know what? it doesn't stop us from making progress reducing the cost spent on all other activities. We went from nearly 50,000 fatalities per 100 million vehicle-miles traveled in 1921 to less than 10,000 in 2014, all while the number of cars on the road increased by 1000+% through laws and government incentives that promoted safety innovation in the industry. We've done the same with medicine, with crime, with pretty much everything except guns. In 1977 someone came along and said "this is the price we have to pay" and then fought against every effort to make that "price" cost us less. It's not a natural situation - the natural situation is to keep moving toward efficiency but in this case it's intentionally stifled.

 

Even when people invent a safety measure independently, the NRA has often interfered with their distribution or acceptance - citing it as an alternative form of "control". We a willing to have a remote key operate a 2 ton vehicle safely for hundreds of thousands of miles, but can't use the same tech to make sure a firearm can only be fired by one person? It's foolish.

 

 

Do you have the stats for drug use/violence in America since Nixon started the war on drugs?

[RedRocket1647545505]

Everything comes with a price. But you know what? it doesn't stop us from making progress reducing the cost spent on all other activities. We went from nearly 50,000 fatalities per 100 million vehicle-miles traveled in 1921 to less than 10,000 in 2014, all while the number of cars on the road increased by 1000+% through laws and government incentives that promoted safety innovation in the industry. We've done the same with medicine, with crime, with pretty much everything except guns. In 1977 someone came along and said "this is the price we have to pay" and then fought against every effort to make that "price" cost us less. It's not a natural situation - the natural situation is to keep moving toward efficiency but in this case it's intentionally stifled.

 

Even when people invent a safety measure independently, the NRA has often interfered with their distribution or acceptance - citing it as an alternative form of "control". We a willing to have a remote key operate a 2 ton vehicle safely for hundreds of thousands of miles, but can't use the same tech to make sure a firearm can only be fired by one person? It's foolish.

 

I do not have a problem working towards a solution, but I demand that the solution be viable and not a complete waste of time or Rights. How about we set our eyes on the ACTUAL problem; the person.

 

This knee-jerk reaction legislation gets tiresome and we all know it will literally do nothing to fix the problem. It's an excuse to continue chipping away. See Nancy Pelosi' s latest comment if you need any guidance on what their intentions are.

 

If you (not you specifically, Kerry) want to have a conversation, we can do that. But if you say gun even one single time during this conversation, it's over because you still haven't figured out what the problem even is. Your unfounded hatred for an object prevents us from moving forward. I believe that is why the NRA takes a hardline stance; because they realize they are not the problem.

 

I also love how people, particularly legislators, talk about the NRA like they are some big bad rogue entity who goes against the will of the people. News Flash: they are funded by The People. And they aren't even in the top 10 lobbyist.

 

And about your last comment. The Left loves to push for these dumb things. They DO NOT WORK. It's been tried time and time again. Youre asking them to put a small, electronic device inside and near to an object whose job is to contain and direct a violent explosion, insane G-forces, and to do it thousands and thousands of times while remaining reliable, especially when it counts. Oh, and to also think it couldn't be disabled when someone wants is quite laughable. Again, we are looking at the wrong damn thing.

 

This country is bleeding out and we keep blaming the blood.

[Geeto67]

I do not have a problem working towards a solution, but I demand that the solution be viable and not a complete waste of time or Rights. How about we set our eyes on the ACTUAL problem; the person.

 

I was with you right up until you said, the person. Why? because regulating a person's behavior sometimes requires economic sanction or creating dis-incentivizing hurdles around a thing.

 

either way the answer begins with study, and that is the study of people's interaction with this thing you don't want to talk about.

This knee-jerk reaction legislation gets tiresome and we all know it will literally do nothing to fix the problem. It's an excuse to continue chipping away. See Nancy Pelosi' s latest comment if you need any guidance on what their intentions are.

 

They are working with what they have - and that is no research and being backed up into a corner by the opposition being hard-line that no control is acceptable. Start funding research and you'll start to see more measured approaches. But that means you need the NRA out of the way, and it isn't likely to happen any time soon.

 

If you (not you specifically, Kerry) want to have a conversation, we can do that. But if you say gun even one single time during this conversation, it's over because you still haven't figured out what the problem even is. Your unfounded hatred for an object prevents us from moving forward. I believe that is why the NRA takes a hardline stance; because they realize they are not the problem.

 

This is not an open position, and will not yield any productive conversation. You are talking about a person's relationship with something so the word Gun is going to come up. If you want to talk about mental illness, that's a completely different conversation. It's not unfounded hatred to talk about someone's relationship to something and discuss the something.

 

 

I also love how people, particularly legislators, talk about the NRA like they are some big bad rogue entity who goes against the will of the people. News Flash: they are funded by The People. And they aren't even in the top 10 lobbyist.

 

They are funded by the people AND the gun industry. They are not a large organization, but they are very effective and influential. They work from the bottom up at a local, state, and then federal level. The message is "simple" and their communication structure is clear. When there is a vote, their people are aware of it and show up (as opposed to gun control advocates who are not as centralized, well funded, or resource rich). They are literally the model as to how to run a top tier effective campaign on a medium sized budget. They punch above their weight class constantly and it lands, everyone can learn something from them. But they are the current roadblock, esp now that the issue is more polarizing than ever.

 

And about your last comment. The Left loves to push for these dumb things. They DO NOT WORK. It's been tried time and time again. Youre asking them to put a small, electronic device inside and near to an object whose job is to contain and direct a violent explosion, insane G-forces, and to do it thousands and thousands of times while remaining reliable, especially when it counts. Oh, and to also think it couldn't be disabled when someone wants is quite laughable. Again, we are looking at the wrong damn thing.

 

This country is bleeding out and we keep blaming the blood.

 

https://techcrunch.com/2016/04/30/why-the-nra-hates-smart-guns/

https://techcrunch.com/2016/01/05/why-obamas-smart-gun-push-will-misfire/

 

you are trying to simplify what is a complex issue. yes the tech isn't there, just like airbag tech wasn't there in the early days, or anything else that has to start somewhere. If you truly believe it will fail then why not let it fail and then nobody buys it and it goes away. Or even better, what's wrong with spending money to see if it can be made viable? and then if it isn't, we can cross it off.

 

Again the NRA's position is no control is acceptable, no research is acceptable because no control is acceptable.

[Versluis]

So anyways...... what I don't understand is why so much of the information from shooting is now be retracted by other information. If the security guard was shot before initial firing began on the concert, why were police not already on the floor before the shooting started? Did the guy just not think to call 911 or have the hotel send in help? In a casino in Vegas, I find it hard to believe a shooting on one of their floors goes silent for X amount of time.

 

There are some holes in the story and I'm sure there will be more to come of it.

[BStowers023]

So anyways...... what I don't understand is why so much of the information from shooting is now be retracted by other information. If the security guard was shot before initial firing began on the concert, why were police not already on the floor before the shooting started? Did the guy just not think to call 911 or have the hotel send in help? In a casino in Vegas, I find it hard to believe a shooting on one of their floors goes silent for X amount of time.

 

There are some holes in the story and I'm sure there will be more to come of it.

 

In before everyone calls you a conspiracy theorist simply for questioning anything that happened.

[Supplicium]

I thought it was because they were clearing floor by floor to make sure there was not multiple shooters and that the shooter didnt escape with the crowd

[zeitgeist57]

There are some holes in the story...

 

Too soon.

[BStowers023]

Too soon.

 

Damn....

[BigOxley]

So anyways...... what I don't understand is why so much of the information from shooting is now be retracted by other information. If the security guard was shot before initial firing began on the concert, why were police not already on the floor before the shooting started? Did the guy just not think to call 911 or have the hotel send in help? In a casino in Vegas, I find it hard to believe a shooting on one of their floors goes silent for X amount of time.

 

There are some holes in the story and I'm sure there will be more to come of it.

 

 

 

Not to mention, there is no listing on a public accessible registry of security workers in Nevada for a "Jesus Campos"

 

There is a Larry Jesus Campos that popped up 4 hours after the initial search.

 

Weird either way.... Either someone scrubbed the list after the shooting or Jesus was never on the list.

[944s2]

So anyways...... what I don't understand is why so much of the information from shooting is now be retracted by other information. If the security guard was shot before initial firing began on the concert, why were police not already on the floor before the shooting started? Did the guy just not think to call 911 or have the hotel send in help? In a casino in Vegas, I find it hard to believe a shooting on one of their floors goes silent for X amount of time.

 

There are some holes in the story and I'm sure there will be more to come of it.

 

IMO Most likely the casino was trying to keep it under wraps as much as possible initially.

 

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that these casinos will do almost anything to stay out of negative spotlight. They are known to get people who overdose and are dying off of their property so they don't have the negative media on them. They all fight so hard for customers most of the rooms are empty most of the time unless its during peak season or a conference. The last thing they need is someone saying "lets go to (any of the 20+ other casinos on the strip) because Mandalay had that shooting"

 

I would bet it's an un-written policy to "handle it" in house and at the time they didn't realize the scope of the situation until it was too late.

 

TL : DR

The mob runs that fucking town.... lol

[BigOxley]

IMO Most likely the casino was trying to keep it under wraps as much as possible initially.

 

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that these casinos will do almost anything to stay out of negative spotlight. They are known to get people who overdose and are dying off of their property so they don't have the negative media on them. They all fight so hard for customers most of the rooms are empty most of the time unless its during peak season or a conference. The last thing they need is someone saying "lets go to (any of the 20+ other casinos on the strip) because Mandalay had that shooting"

 

I would bet it's an un-written policy to "handle it" in house and at the time they didn't realize the scope of the situation until it was too late.

 

TL : DR

The mob runs that fucking town.... lol

 

 

 

If/when MGM starts getting sued, all hell is going to break loose. They are going to dump every bit of information that shows they weren't at fault or negligent and some Alphabet agency set it all up

[Mojoe]

They are getting sued by a lady that was shot in the chest.

[ODoyle]

They are getting sued by a lady that was shot in the chest.

 

This. Slide Fire, Live Nation and his estate are named in the suit as well.

[RedRocket1647545505]

I was with you right up until you said, the person. Why? because regulating a person's behavior sometimes requires economic sanction or creating dis-incentivizing hurdles around a thing.

 

I still think you're missing the problem here. How do you incentive someone who isn't rational to begin with? Their infatuation isn't with guns, it's with killing. You need to address why they are driven to kill, not why they are using a gun. Giving earplugs to a schizophrenic won't make them quit hearing voices in their head. There is something wrong with their brain, and that's what needs addressed.

 

either way the answer begins with study, and that is the study of people's interaction with this thing you don't want to talk about.

 

Oh, I'd love to talk about that thing. But that thing isn't the gun, it's the idea of killing people.

 

They are working with what they have - and that is no research and being backed up into a corner by the opposition being hard-line that no control is acceptable. Start funding research and you'll start to see more measured approaches. But that means you need the NRA out of the way, and it isn't likely to happen any time soon.

 

What research do you need? It ain't that hard to track. We don't need a gov't funded entity to give us some statistics. "Well, ASSAULT WEAPONS were used in 0.04% of homicides killing a total of 213 people." Who gives a fuck? It's well known that handguns are far and above used to kill more people than anything else, and they NEVER get talked about. Why? Because legislators do not truly give a shit. The country wouldn't know this though because the media loves to latch onto these 'mass killings' and plaster AR-15s all over the TV, and the average American is too God damn stupid to know any better, and so they believe it.

 

And if it matters so much to the Left legislators; take $50k, pay a person to sit down and gather the data for a year, and present it. I'm not quite sure what they feel like they are missing though.

 

This is not an open position, and will not yield any productive conversation. You are talking about a person's relationship with something so the word Gun is going to come up. If you want to talk about mental illness, that's a completely different conversation. It's not unfounded hatred to talk about someone's relationship to something and discuss the something.

 

Nope. Again, the fixation ISN'T THE GUN, IT'S KILLING. Why? Why? Why can we not focus on that? Mental illness isn't a completely different conversation when it comes to these mass killings. It is THE conversation. I also do not think it's all about mental illness. This latest douche didn't show one single sign that he would do this, so why did he do it? What are we doing as a society that is influencing and driving these people to commit these acts? Putting a gun in front of them is what caused him to snap? I think not.

 

You're not crazy, until you are.

 

 

They are funded by the people AND the gun industry. They are not a large organization, but they are very effective and influential. They work from the bottom up at a local, state, and then federal level. The message is "simple" and their communication structure is clear. When there is a vote, their people are aware of it and show up (as opposed to gun control advocates who are not as centralized, well funded, or resource rich). They are literally the model as to how to run a top tier effective campaign on a medium sized budget. They punch above their weight class constantly and it lands, everyone can learn something from them. But they are the current roadblock, esp now that the issue is more polarizing than ever.

 

Have you met Bob (Diamonds)? The vast majority of the gun industry is made up of people like him. Small business guys trying to find their way. There are a few large companies and conglomerate, too, but they don't make up the majority.

 

The NRA is backed by The People, and to some degree (as you noted) the Gun Industry, who are also backed by The People. So, yes, The People WANT the NRA to continue doing what it's doing because it's in their best interest. They don't have a problem with the Gun Industry backing the NRA because it benefits them. Again, they aren't evil. They are the powerful word of The People who refuse to give up their Rights.

 

And the NRA is definitely more organized and centralized because they are educated on the subject. I can talk to 99% of anti-gun people and blow holes in every argument they have because they haven't a clue about anything they're bitching about. I wouldn't get into an argument with a nuclear engineer about how bad nuke power plants are for the environment when I don't have the slightest idea how they work in the first place. I'd come off as a moron to those that are educated on the subject, and the anti-gun crowd does too.

 

you are trying to simplify what is a complex issue. yes the tech isn't there, just like airbag tech wasn't there in the early days, or anything else that has to start somewhere. If you truly believe it will fail then why not let it fail and then nobody buys it and it goes away. Or even better, what's wrong with spending money to see if it can be made viable? and then if it isn't, we can cross it off.

 

Again the NRA's position is no control is acceptable, no research is acceptable because no control is acceptable.

 

I'm not stopping you from doing R&D into the tech, if you want. But I better not be forced to buy it when you're done. A gun isn't a car. You don't have a car's worth of space to squeeze something in. I'd rather the money be spent on finding why people are so damn crazy these days.

[TTQ B4U]

Politicians are corrupt fuck-sticks so no, I'm not going to support spending/wasting money to give to them to try and prove their theory that might 2A needs to be adjusted. Guns aren't the issue.

 

The vast majority of our deaths by guns are suicides which is a mental health thing. Next up are rats killing rats in the hoods and gang infested areas of the country. No one on either side gives shit about them that's pretty clear and the left isn't helping things when they handcuff cops from cracking down on the bad guys. We worry too much about the bad guys and not enough about society's contributing and productive people.

 

Vegas is already proving interesting as IMO there is definitely something odd going on with the investigation. Not knowing the motive I can see but when the timeline gets fucked up several times and the guys house is broken into and no one will / can confirm if anything was taken......well it's not hard to see something fishy going on here. The FBI dude on all the press conferences is way way too by the book stiff on what he says.

 

I'm an NRA lifer because they more closely represent and support my views than others.

[wagner]

Logic and facts have no place in the anti-gun conversation, just a heads up.

 

I still think you're missing the problem here. How do you incentive someone who isn't rational to begin with? Their infatuation isn't with guns, it's with killing. You need to address why they are driven to kill, not why they are using a gun. Giving earplugs to a schizophrenic won't make them quit hearing voices in their head. There is something wrong with their brain, and that's what needs addressed.

 

 

 

Oh, I'd love to talk about that thing. But that thing isn't the gun, it's the idea of killing people.

 

 

 

What research do you need? It ain't that hard to track. We don't need a gov't funded entity to give us some statistics. "Well, ASSAULT WEAPONS were used in 0.04% of homicides killing a total of 213 people." Who gives a fuck? It's well known that handguns are far and above used to kill more people than anything else, and they NEVER get talked about. Why? Because legislators do not truly give a shit. The country wouldn't know this though because the media loves to latch onto these 'mass killings' and plaster AR-15s all over the TV, and the average American is too God damn stupid to know any better, and so they believe it.

 

And if it matters so much to the Left legislators; take $50k, pay a person to sit down and gather the data for a year, and present it. I'm not quite sure what they feel like they are missing though.

 

 

 

Nope. Again, the fixation ISN'T THE GUN, IT'S KILLING. Why? Why? Why can we not focus on that? Mental illness isn't a completely different conversation when it comes to these mass killings. It is THE conversation. I also do not think it's all about mental illness. This latest douche didn't show one single sign that he would do this, so why did he do it? What are we doing as a society that is influencing and driving these people to commit these acts? Putting a gun in front of them is what caused him to snap? I think not.

 

You're not crazy, until you are.

 

 

 

 

Have you met Bob (Diamonds)? The vast majority of the gun industry is made up of people like him. Small business guys trying to find their way. There are a few large companies and conglomerate, too, but they don't make up the majority.

 

The NRA is backed by The People, and to some degree (as you noted) the Gun Industry, who are also backed by The People. So, yes, The People WANT the NRA to continue doing what it's doing because it's in their best interest. They don't have a problem with the Gun Industry backing the NRA because it benefits them. Again, they aren't evil. They are the powerful word of The People who refuse to give up their Rights.

 

And the NRA is definitely more organized and centralized because they are educated on the subject. I can talk to 99% of anti-gun people and blow holes in every argument they have because they haven't a clue about anything they're bitching about. I wouldn't get into an argument with a nuclear engineer about how bad nuke power plants are for the environment when I don't have the slightest idea how they work in the first place. I'd come off as a moron to those that are educated on the subject, and the anti-gun crowd does too.

 

 

 

I'm not stopping you from doing R&D into the tech, if you want. But I better not be forced to buy it when you're done. A gun isn't a car. You don't have a car's worth of space to squeeze something in. I'd rather the money be spent on finding why people are so damn crazy these days.

[BStowers023]

If an author writes a great award winning book are you crediting the keyboard?

[BigOxley]

[zeitgeist57]

I'm not participating in the gun debate, nor the conspiracy theories.

 

All I know - referencing DeShon's comments above - is that I cannot remember an incident post-9/11 in my adult life where I keep hearing on NPR every morning how they STILL don't know what's going on with this case. ESPECIALLY considering he's a "lone wolf".

 

It certainly seems that casino operators will indeed do everything they can to control public perception of their establishments.

[BigOxley]

Edit: fake news, disregard

[10phone2]

pretty sure lighting kills more people a year than police killing blacks..... let's ban lighting.

[jerrodh]

No it will never pass. We might be able to ban thunder though. Friggin Storm Chasers be blocking our bill's.

[BigOxley]

Presser today was weird:

 

Kept calling Paddock the "suspect" and not the shooter

Still combing over 1000 pieces of evidence

Timeline is now back to the original

No independent press allowed

Shifted focus to first responders

*crocodile tears* (Rouse slithering in background)

NO QUESTIONS!

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wagner]

Presser today was weird:

 

Kept calling Paddock the "suspect" and not the shooter

Still combing over 1000 pieces of evidence

Timeline is now back to the original

No independent press allowed

Shifted focus to first responders

*crocodile tears* (Rouse slithering in background)

NO QUESTIONS!

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Trying to sweep it under the rug like other shootings that don't fit the narrative. Oh well, that's how this country works these days. Get it out of the news cycle when it doesn't fit, keep it going when it does.