Political Fart Noise Part II

[BStowers023]

https://nationalseedproject.org/white-privilege-unpacking-the-invisible-knapsack

 

be smarter, will ya. This was written in 1988, and it's still relevant.

 

and if you have a hard time relating it to poor white Americans: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html

 

White people = no excuse for not being successful

Black people = every excuse for not being successful

 

You're just like the welfare system Kerry. Keep patting people on the back telling them it's okay, you just don't have the opportunity. The only people keeping certain groups down are people like yourself. Instead, why don't you tell people to have a positive attitude and stop blaming society for their mishaps. Everyone goes through various struggles in life, some look to point the finger (people like you) some decide to suck it up and don't accept that's the way it needs to be. This country is being ruined by pussy boys like yourself. Real men are a dying breed. God help us

[CRed05]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html

 

From the article, you know you're privileged when "“I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.”"

 

Oh Jeesus H Christ. Then why don't you move to a place where that's true. Oh, because it fucking sucks over there? You were privileged enough to get the fuck out or live in a country that's not up to it's neck in poverty, crime and unemployment.

 

The majority of my family sees a face like theirs 8 out of 100 times yet are still called privileged, their job applications moved to the back of the pile, gets a shitty education because the bar has been lowered, has to deal with times during the day when they don't have electricity because the fuckers in charge don't know how to run a company(How you manage to bankrupt a company that has a monopoly on electricity is amazing). It's still their fault though that unemployment is at 27% and most people are poor, so now they'll take their land because all else has failed to make everyone rich.

Edited August 10, 2018 by kickass

[TTQ B4U]

You were privileged enough to get the fuck out or live in a country that's not up to it's neck in poverty, crime and unemployment.

 

Agree. Americas poor and "oppressed" don't know what oppression is

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy Note 8 using Tapatalk

[Geeto67]

Right, but you see it as the whiteman holding everyone down, where I see it as not everyone wants to go get an education, take the time to learn a skill, do what is considered by western standards a successful person.

 

It's more complex that that. At one point yes white supremacy was dominant and written into our laws, and the white man was actively holding people down. But successive generations went from hatred to apathy, and some of the laws changed and a lot of them didn't. What we are stuck with right now is a system that once was very biased, that has some band aid fixes to kinda sorta try and help, but still has a long way to go. Part of this is recognition of the problem and actually changing the laws and making efforts to level the playing field - but there are still many in government who for various reasons fight against that.

 

I don't see "the white man" as actively holding everyone down so much as we were inherited a shitty legacy that was built on ancient hatred and which we still pay for, but we don't have to accept it or be apathetic about it. It's our responsibility to at least recognize it and do what we can to make the world the way we see fit.

 

Maybe some people don't want to get higher education, but you can't ignore that even in required education primary/elementary/high school there is a disparity and that disparity was created to discourage poor people, and especially poor black people, from even getting a basic education. We have a need for special programs, and disadvantage youth scholarships, and all these other programs because segregation and redlining and thousands of other local, state, and municipal policies created that need. And honestly these programs are often underfunded and under serve the people they try to help, they have wait lists and for every one kid that gets a scholarship to better school there are 10 eligible kids who want it and qualify for it and don't get it.

 

There are people who want a good education in this country and just can't get it. And you know what? it's literally a money problem, every time the government has invested in education on a federal level the whole of the country benefited - and yet we have politicians today that say the government shouldn't spend on education and shouldn't invest in it's citizens, choosing to ignore both the racial disparate impact and overall societal detriment that such a platform has.

 

 

 

I was shooting the shit with a buddy of mine who owns a big concrete company here in Columbus. He was telling me how it sucks for them to get reliable help. From what he was saying, they pay well and offer benefits which is supposedly rare in that line of work, yet they have to stop providing direct deposit to a lot of employees because once the money hits their account at midnight on Friday, they decide to not show up for work and you might not see them again until Monday or Tuesday. So forcing them to come in on Friday to pickup their checks prevents them from saying fuck it, I have some cash now lets get fucked up at the bar all weekend. He'd love to just fire them all but it's hard to find people.

 

My point with that little story is that a lot of people just don't give a shit, or don't have the ability to think about the future. They live in the now. They have a paycheck, now its time to spend it, when the money is low or gone, then they'll put just enough effort in to get another check.

 

You are extrapolating one isolated case to the whole of a population nationwide, it's a little problematic. But I get your point, yes in hard work like construction good work may be hard to find for a variety of reasons. The drug epidemic certainly has changed the landscape for the worse as well. It's also hard work, and it's work that's accessible to people who don't have a lot of education, or maybe are struggling with other issues and self medicating those issues. And yes, there are some people in there who may be irresponsible as well. And while I am sure your employer friend thinks he pays a fair wage, he may not actually be doing that, his employees may not feel like they are getting paid what they are worth. There is a lot to analyze for any situation and it is difficult to just say: yep it's all due to lazy ass people and nothing else.

 

I hate to even use the term SJW, but SJWs like to always be on about how we need to celebrate diversity, yet to want to put in rules, regulations and laws to level everything and go against nature and ignore diversity.

 

Explain this. what laws ignore diversity?

 

side note: I despise the term SJW because too many people use it incorrectly, and it's become just kind of a slur for conservative people to just label any "mouthy liberal".

 

From my perspective, most people are just asking for things to be more diverse. Celebrate diversity as a rally cry was really used to call for more diversity in places like college campuses, workplaces, etc... and to get it though programs that offer opportunities to people who were being closed out of it. And you know what? it takes some rules and regulations to force diversity sometimes, and without them there is a lot of empirical evidence that they revert back. This isn't ancient history - this happened with in our lifetimes.

 

Either you believe in the value of intersectionality or you don't. If you do, then look at what's being asked for and what's being proposed and you'll see it's not about handouts, that's just a stupid myth, it's about fighting against a system that inherently tries to segregate because at one point that was the goal.

 

So the equal proportion thing is just madness, and it sounds like you aren't fully on-board with that idea, which is good. It's whats in-place in SA as BEE. All it has done is drive small businesses either out of the country or forced them to shut down (My cousin's design agency moved with him to the Americas, my uncle just said fuck it and closed his post-retirement electronics repair gig). Large corporations (private or government) are so in dept and rife of corruption because they aren't managed by people who deserve to be there. It also causes a brain drain out of the country, which goes back to that average IQ of 70 thing.

 

There is always a debate as to whether percentage based quotas are still effective or whether things have shifted to game the system and something else needs to manage diversity. Either way, I don't think we have made it to the point where diversity will occur naturally and still needs to be managed.

http://www.workforce.com/1995/08/01/affirmative-action-what-you-need-to-know/

 

The equal proportion thing is an ideal target. If we truly managed to rid our society of this sort of bias, then we should see it occur naturally (or at least something reasonably close) without programs to assist. The logic behind a lot of these programs (like affirmative action) was that diversity was self perpetuating, once you started to have it, it would keep going, and to a certain degree it is, but I think that gets relied upon too much when a real change is need at the root cause.

 

What you are describing to some degree though might be more affected by something that is not racially motivated - the peter principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle#The_Peter_Principle

The basic idea is that people are often promoted into their incompetence, and while a lot has been done to mitigate this - it's still prevelant in all areas of business. It's an easy thing to blame affirmative action for, esp since there is a racial promotion bias that affirmative action tries to address, but the reality is if you keep promoting people eventually they will reach a level of job that exceeds their skill and that has nothing to do with race. BTW, it's not just single company promotion we are talking about but also job hopping defacto promotion.

 

 

To fix it requires 2 things IMO. The ethnic groups in question need to first help themselves by realizing the problem and fixing it within their own culture and communities. As a society, we need to provide equal educational opportunities for all those who can't afford it, no matter your race. But the old saying is true, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force them to drink.

 

You can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you don't have boots. before your first thing can happen, we as a society need to work towards making sure the opportunity is there for them when they want to fix it. You keep talking about them "fixing problems in their community" but a lot of the problems in the community are poverty related. Nobody seems to be saying white people need to fix insider trading, but there are a lot of people that blame black people for violent crime, even though it has been on a decline for the last 20+ years.

 

Saying black people need to fix things in the community is one of those racial dog whistles that blames a lot of undesirable societal ills on race. A lot of what is seen as "needs to be fixed" affects poor white people too, but we don't seem as concerned with them fixing what's wrong in the poor white community - as if robbery or mugging or gang violence was an exclusively black problem. It isn't.

 

Education and opportunity comes first, the rest will sort itself out.

[CRed05]

Explain this. what laws ignore diversity?

 

So with diversity I mean accepting that we are all different and certain traits are more common in certain races or between the sexes. In other words, that you won't see a lot of women in a construction job that requires you to swing a 20lb hammer around all day, or why native Americans were used in building skyscrapers because they have less of a fear, or are able to control their fear of heights better. So it's silly to want to put laws in place that say you need an equal amount of men and women swinging heavy hammers, equal amount of races walking on steel beams 100s of ft above the city, or equal amount of all the races in the NBA (or even a proportionate amount to population). Maybe whitey is just a little better at being an accountant than everyone else.

 

Education and opportunity comes first, the rest will sort itself out.

 

That's right, and you said that income is the problem for most when it comes to education. Offer help to those that don't have the income and base it on income only...throw race out the window.

 

What you are describing to some degree though might be more affected by something that is not racially motivated - the peter principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle#The_Peter_Principle

The basic idea is that people are often promoted into their incompetence, and while a lot has been done to mitigate this - it's still prevelant in all areas of business. It's an easy thing to blame affirmative action for, esp since there is a racial promotion bias that affirmative action tries to address, but the reality is if you keep promoting people eventually they will reach a level of job that exceeds their skill and that has nothing to do with race. BTW, it's not just single company promotion we are talking about but also job hopping defacto promotion.

 

I can agree with that.

[Geeto67]

So with diversity I mean accepting that we are all different and certain traits are more common in certain races or between the sexes. In other words, that you won't see a lot of women in a construction job that requires you to swing a 20lb hammer around all day, or why native Americans were used in building skyscrapers because they have less of a fear, or are able to control their fear of heights better. So it's silly to want to put laws in place that say you need an equal amount of men and women swinging heavy hammers, equal amount of races walking on steel beams 100s of ft above the city, or equal amount of all the races in the NBA (or even a proportionate amount to population). Maybe whitey is just a little better at being an accountant than everyone else.

 

You do know that there are exceptions built into the system, right? Construction contractors do not have to have an AA plan for women or minorities for manual labor positions. If an employer cannot find a qualified individual for an AA covered position they can file an exception. And there are also employment discrimination exceptions as well based on the job requirements (e.g. Chinese chef in a Chinese restaurant). Also, AA only applies to companies that have federal contracts - if you don't provide services to the government you aren't required to have an AA plan.

 

This thing you say is silly doesn't happen.

 

Now, I will agree the AA requirements for construction contractors hasn't been updated in 30 years so that should probably happen, but it's a low priority for democrats and not one at all for republicans.

 

That's right, and you said that income is the problem for most when it comes to education. Offer help to those that don't have the income and base it on income only...throw race out the window.

 

Income is a problem because in this country we tie education spending to local taxes, so poor people pay less tax because they live in neighborhoods where their property is worth less and the gross amount collected through tax is smaller. The end result is their schools have smaller budgets. Move off that model by injecting money into the system and problem is solved without giving anybody a handout.

 

https://www.npr.org/2016/04/18/474256366/why-americas-schools-have-a-money-problem

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/property-taxes-and-unequal-schools/497333/

 

Why do we have this system by the way instead of a state wide or national pool funding all equally? Post Civil war segregation. This was an easy way for plantation owners who were just divested of their property to insure an under-educated abundant cheap labor force. And it is still our system today. There were many times where pooled funding was tried and even measures passed to equal school funding, but people always found a way around it to push the inequality.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Geeto67

[TTQ B4U]

]

Why do we have this system by the way instead of a state wide or national pool funding all equally? Post Civil war segregation. This was an easy way for plantation owners who were just divested of their property to insure an under-educated abundant cheap labor force. And it is still our system today. There were many times where pooled funding was tried and even measures passed to equal school funding, but people always found a way around it to push the inequality.

 

This is a good read and shows that it's less about funding than about how the money is spent.

 

https://www.lincolninst.edu/publications/articles/school-finance-property-taxes

 

Personally I see the goal you're trying to achieve by pooling spending dollars, but I'm less for it given our systems fucked up wasteful spending of tax dollars overall. Until that's fixed there's no sense in rediateubuting wealth and hurting those areas that are doing fine.

 

Add to it the absurdity out immigration issues play into this it really makes no sense. Just look at California and ask oneself if their system is really what we want. No fucking thanks.

 

Also, add in your favorite topic of personal responsibility and parenting to the mix. Sure, there are kids and families that want a good education, but there are many many more that don't fucking parent or even give a shit if their kids study. There needs to be a way to hold families to being better so that the system helps those who help themselves. Otherwise its wasted effort leading a horse to water if all they are going to do is piss in it. In the end however, it's up to the parents and kids as families and individuals not the rest of us to make that happen. Again, we are in control of our lives way more than those around us are.

 

The family unit is what's broken. We can take 1950s textbooks add it a mediocre teacher and a modern cell phone that every kid has and they should be able to apply themselves and pass the basic standards and minimums testing. They don't and aren't for a lot of reasons and those reasons have little to nothing to do with the lack of school funding. Wealth redistribution and lowering of the bar isn't the answer.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Note 8 using Tapatalk

Edited August 10, 2018 by TTQ B4U

[cdk 4219]

It's more complex that that. At one point yes white supremacy was dominant and written into our laws, and the white man was actively holding people down. But successive generations went from hatred to apathy, and some of the laws changed and a lot of them didn't. What we are stuck with right now is a system that once was very biased, that has some band aid fixes to kinda sorta try and help, but still has a long way to go. Part of this is recognition of the problem and actually changing the laws and making efforts to level the playing field - but there are still many in government who for various reasons fight against that.

 

I don't see "the white man" as actively holding everyone down so much as we were inherited a shitty legacy that was built on ancient hatred and which we still pay for, but we don't have to accept it or be apathetic about it. It's our responsibility to at least recognize it and do what we can to make the world the way we see fit.

 

Maybe some people don't want to get higher education, but you can't ignore that even in required education primary/elementary/high school there is a disparity and that disparity was created to discourage poor people, and especially poor black people, from even getting a basic education. We have a need for special programs, and disadvantage youth scholarships, and all these other programs because segregation and redlining and thousands of other local, state, and municipal policies created that need. And honestly these programs are often underfunded and under serve the people they try to help, they have wait lists and for every one kid that gets a scholarship to better school there are 10 eligible kids who want it and qualify for it and don't get it.

 

There are people who want a good education in this country and just can't get it. And you know what? it's literally a money problem, every time the government has invested in education on a federal level the whole of the country benefited - and yet we have politicians today that say the government shouldn't spend on education and shouldn't invest in it's citizens, choosing to ignore both the racial disparate impact and overall societal detriment that such a platform has.

 

 

 

 

 

You are extrapolating one isolated case to the whole of a population nationwide, it's a little problematic. But I get your point, yes in hard work like construction good work may be hard to find for a variety of reasons. The drug epidemic certainly has changed the landscape for the worse as well. It's also hard work, and it's work that's accessible to people who don't have a lot of education, or maybe are struggling with other issues and self medicating those issues. And yes, there are some people in there who may be irresponsible as well. And while I am sure your employer friend thinks he pays a fair wage, he may not actually be doing that, his employees may not feel like they are getting paid what they are worth. There is a lot to analyze for any situation and it is difficult to just say: yep it's all due to lazy ass people and nothing else.

 

 

 

Explain this. what laws ignore diversity?

 

side note: I despise the term SJW because too many people use it incorrectly, and it's become just kind of a slur for conservative people to just label any "mouthy liberal".

 

From my perspective, most people are just asking for things to be more diverse. Celebrate diversity as a rally cry was really used to call for more diversity in places like college campuses, workplaces, etc... and to get it though programs that offer opportunities to people who were being closed out of it. And you know what? it takes some rules and regulations to force diversity sometimes, and without them there is a lot of empirical evidence that they revert back. This isn't ancient history - this happened with in our lifetimes.

 

Either you believe in the value of intersectionality or you don't. If you do, then look at what's being asked for and what's being proposed and you'll see it's not about handouts, that's just a stupid myth, it's about fighting against a system that inherently tries to segregate because at one point that was the goal.

 

 

 

There is always a debate as to whether percentage based quotas are still effective or whether things have shifted to game the system and something else needs to manage diversity. Either way, I don't think we have made it to the point where diversity will occur naturally and still needs to be managed.

http://www.workforce.com/1995/08/01/affirmative-action-what-you-need-to-know/

 

The equal proportion thing is an ideal target. If we truly managed to rid our society of this sort of bias, then we should see it occur naturally (or at least something reasonably close) without programs to assist. The logic behind a lot of these programs (like affirmative action) was that diversity was self perpetuating, once you started to have it, it would keep going, and to a certain degree it is, but I think that gets relied upon too much when a real change is need at the root cause.

 

What you are describing to some degree though might be more affected by something that is not racially motivated - the peter principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle#The_Peter_Principle

The basic idea is that people are often promoted into their incompetence, and while a lot has been done to mitigate this - it's still prevelant in all areas of business. It's an easy thing to blame affirmative action for, esp since there is a racial promotion bias that affirmative action tries to address, but the reality is if you keep promoting people eventually they will reach a level of job that exceeds their skill and that has nothing to do with race. BTW, it's not just single company promotion we are talking about but also job hopping defacto promotion.

 

 

 

 

You can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you don't have boots. before your first thing can happen, we as a society need to work towards making sure the opportunity is there for them when they want to fix it. You keep talking about them "fixing problems in their community" but a lot of the problems in the community are poverty related. Nobody seems to be saying white people need to fix insider trading, but there are a lot of people that blame black people for violent crime, even though it has been on a decline for the last 20+ years.

 

Saying black people need to fix things in the community is one of those racial dog whistles that blames a lot of undesirable societal ills on race. A lot of what is seen as "needs to be fixed" affects poor white people too, but we don't seem as concerned with them fixing what's wrong in the poor white community - as if robbery or mugging or gang violence was an exclusively black problem. It isn't.

 

Education and opportunity comes first, the rest will sort itself out.

 

I would suggest you start the process of changing yourself to a black woman, and move back to New York.

[Geeto67]

This is a good read and shows that it's less about funding than about how the money is spent.

 

https://www.lincolninst.edu/publications/articles/school-finance-property-taxes

 

Actually, I think you need to re-read that article because you are taking some wide liberties with what it says. It absolutely concedes that basing school expenditure is a local tax problem (not just a property tax problem). The argument it tries to make is that by going to a shared resource/distribution model is that budgets would be more susceptible to political influence, which I suppose is possible but doesn't really bear out. They even concede that there are a lot of factors that go into this that cannot be predicted, and even in the isolated examples they cited they concede that it doesn't entirely support their proposition due to those many factors, and in the California case it openly neglects to mention that because of centralization the actual funding to the schools were cut drastically.

 

Still if you read it all the way through you'll find that the point of the article is to clarify that reliance in property tax (not local tax, specifically property tax) is blamed for more ills than it actually causes and that when centralization of funding occurs, the local property taxes are re-directed instead of being put into education as well. The proper solution is to continue the property tax funding and to have the state make up the shortfall, because that would both minimize the funding problem and the political influence problem.

 

 

Personally I see the goal you're trying to achieve by pooling spending dollars, but I'm less for it given our systems fucked up wasteful spending of tax dollars overall. Until that's fixed there's no sense in rediateubuting wealth and hurting those areas that are doing fine.

 

If you are using the article to support that public school expenditures is wasteful, that is just asking too much of that article. I don't know that it is even a true statement that every single public school is wasteful in its spending - there are a lot of schools that are very good at getting value for their dollar. There are however some schools that are subject to corruption in spending that doesn't bear out a good value for those schools. Part of that is there is no centralized method of accounting or bid process for some schools, meaning that some schools are more susceptible to crony-ism than others. But that's true of most state programs.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/where-school-dollars-go-to-waste/384949/

 

 

Add to it the absurdity out immigration issues play into this it really makes no sense. Just look at California and ask oneself if their system is really what we want. No fucking thanks.

 

What's wrong with California? It's the most populous state in the nation, and the second highest ranked in preparing students for college, and the highest number of gold medal schools (an award issued by U.S. News based on students' performance on required state tests, their graduation rates and their college readiness). In the overall rankings it is only slightly behind Ohio (10 ranking spots, but only about 5 pts difference in total score), but has a higher safety and quality rank than ohio. In some ways we would be lucky to have both the quality and safety of California schools. A lot of people hem and haw about it being the state with the largest number of schools who aren't getting a good value for their spending, but they have the most number of schools of any state in the country - they have more of the best schools and more of the worst schools than anybody else. You set this up like California is some horrible example, but really the numbers don't bear that out and there are a lot of things Ohio could learn from california's system.

 

 

Also, add in your favorite topic of personal responsibility and parenting to the mix. Sure, there are kids and families that want a good education, but there are many many more that don't fucking parent or even give a shit if their kids study. There needs to be a way to hold families to being better so that the system helps those who help themselves. Otherwise its wasted effort leading a horse to water if all they are going to do is piss in it. In the end however, it's up to the parents and kids as families and individuals not the rest of us to make that happen. Again, we are in control of our lives way more than those around us are.

 

Just to be clear, your argument is "we should do nothing to improve a student's education because some people are just shitty parents". I don't accept that. What's your plan for making these people better parents? This is a false personal responsibility argument, because ultimately the person who pay the cost of irresponsibility isn't the parent - the the child. Quality teaching professionals who can reach their students can make up for a lot of the shortcomings that come with shitty parenting. Maybe not all, but it's still an improvement. Here's the thing: either you believe that it is a shared interest of society and a national security interest that ignorance in the population be minimized or not. It sounds like you are just saying other people's kids aren't my problem, but really they are whether you want to accept that or not, either you invest in education now or you pay the costs that ignorance costs society as a whole later http://www.atlantahighered.org/Newsroom/FeatureStoryDetail/tabid/604/xmid/1616/Default.aspx

 

The family unit is what's broken. We can take 1950s textbooks add it a mediocre teacher and a modern cell phone that every kid has and they should be able to apply themselves and pass the basic standards and minimums testing. They don't and aren't for a lot of reasons and those reasons have little to nothing to do with the lack of school funding. Wealth redistribution and lowering of the bar isn't the answer.

 

 

ok, I'm hearing a lot of shoulds, and such but no real plan to fix anything, or to implement any kind of policy that would economically or socially motivate people to act like you think they "should". Statements like these are of little value to any conversation, because they are just raw opinion without facts to back them up, and don't propose any solution. It's just a false clever way of trying to say this thing we think is broken and we have no fix so we shouldn't do anything to try and improve other areas.

[TTQ B4U]

What's wrong with California? You set this up like California is some horrible example, but really the numbers don't bear that out and there are a lot of things Ohio could learn from california's system.

 

NAEP Report Cards show differently for 2017. My daughter is in middle school and I'm glad she's not in California.

 

Grade 8:

Mathematics California Ranked 33/50 states

Reading California Ranked 29/50

Science Calfronia Ranked 42/50

Writing California Ranked 35/50

 

 

Education Week Quality Counts Report from 2015 wasn't good either. Here's a brief write up summarizing it.

http://sites.uci.edu/energyobserver/2015/01/17/california-public-k-12-compared-to-other-states/

 

Just to be clear, your argument is "we should do nothing to improve a student's education because some people are just shitty parents". I don't accept that. What's your plan for making these people better parents?

Kerry, it's not you me or the gov't that needs to make people better parents. Our plan? No...it needs to be THEIR PLAN. There are decades worth of planning and countless resources for coaching people on how to be better parents. None of it means shit unless people take control of their own lives and begin to formulate and execute a plan of their own. Plan wise, IMO needs to start at the schools and within the smaller communities that make up those schools. It takes a village as they say...

 

This is a false personal responsibility argument, because ultimately the person who pay the cost of irresponsibility isn't the parent - the the child.

You're correct but it's not a false argument. When grown adults choose to have kids, they alone own the responsibility of raising them and being a proper responsible parent. Otherwise, I would agree, their kids are the ones who will pay the price first, along next with the rest of us in society. There's no social program out there going to fix those that don't want to parent especially if we as a society keep funding them with subsidies that do nothing but encourage or at the very least don't discourage bad behavior such as parents who aren't fit in many ways to have kids from having them.

 

Quality teaching professionals who can reach their students can make up for a lot of the shortcomings that come with shitty parenting.

Good luck with that. Overall, we have a ton of great educators in this country and they will greatly side with the fact that they can only do so much. The real impact is based on the parents.

 

It sounds like you are just saying other people's kids aren't my problem, but really they are whether you want to accept that or not, either you invest in education now or you pay the costs that ignorance costs society

 

ultimately Kerry the dregs of society will burden us all to some extent but in the end, no, they aren't my problem and I'm here to do my part which is what my expectation of everyone else is and that's raise your kids and be a decent parent. not too much to ask of a grown adult looking to be treated with respect from the rest of us around them. I do feel bad for the kids but they are the responsibility of their parents not me. Perhaps those parents need to actually parent responsibly.

 

ok, I'm hearing a lot of shoulds, and such but no real plan to fix anything.

or to implement any kind of policy that would economically or socially motivate people to act like you think they "should".

people much smarter and more motivated than you or me have been trying to figure it out but can't. the reason lies in what I noted above. there's no magic "policy" or economic solution to this Kerry. Not unless you want those kids to all be children of the state. parents and people need to be responsible if your dream of utopia is to come true. until then, the inequalities will continue and the root cause is those you're trying to fix through social programs when all they have to do is grow up themselves. Don't have kids if you can't afford them or take the time to raise and educate them.

 

 

 

Statements like these are of little value to any conversation, because they are just raw opinion without facts to back them up, and don't propose any solution.

The solution lies within each of us Kerry. We can drum up more coaches but even the assholes bitching won't step-up to coach. Where's LeBron James and Michael Jordan and Jesse Jackson in terms of helping inner city Chicago kids? All talk, no action on their part and they sure as hell could do a lot more good than any Gov't program you want to drum up and have the rest of us pay for.

 

 

If you're looking to me or anyone on CR to come up with a "solution" then keep dreaming. Again, don't wait around for gov't to help you or me be a better parent. That's no their role, it's ours as individuals.

[Geeto67]

NAEP Report Cards show differently for 2017. My daughter is in middle school and I'm glad she's not in California.

 

Grade 8:

Mathematics California Ranked 33/50 states

Reading California Ranked 29/50

Science Calfronia Ranked 42/50

Writing California Ranked 35/50

 

I noticed you didn't post Ohio's results for comparison. Everything but reading California is comparable to in Ohio, and I suspect the higher percentage of non native English speakers is what's bringing the reading score down as an outlier. Also this is for the whole of the state, There are good schools and bad schools in each school district and I find in utter bullshit on your part to say you wouldn't put your kid in all of california's school system when you don't put your kid into the city of columbus's school system either. Give me a break.

 

 

Education Week Quality Counts Report from 2015 wasn't good either. Here's a brief write up summarizing it.

http://sites.uci.edu/energyobserver/2015/01/17/california-public-k-12-compared-to-other-states/

 

A review of schools by an astronomer on his blog where he cites no sources for this comparison other than the single report. And if you go through it, Ohio didn't fare that much better - a couple of rankings higher in a few metrics but nothing terribly significant.

 

Kerry, it's not you me or the gov't that needs to make people better parents. Our plan? No...it needs to be THEIR PLAN. There are decades worth of planning and countless resources for coaching people on how to be better parents. None of it means shit unless people take control of their own lives and begin to formulate and execute a plan of their own. Plan wise, IMO needs to start at the schools and within the smaller communities that make up those schools. It takes a village as they say...

 

Got it, no point in fixing anything because it's all the parents fault. No way for schools to improve on their own. :dumb:

 

You're correct but it's not a false argument. When grown adults choose to have kids, they alone own the responsibility of raising them and being a proper responsible parent. Otherwise, I would agree, their kids are the ones who will pay the price first, along next with the rest of us in society. There's no social program out there going to fix those that don't want to parent especially if we as a society keep funding them with subsidies that do nothing but encourage or at the very least don't discourage bad behavior such as parents who aren't fit in many ways to have kids from having them.

 

Got it, no point in fixing anything because it's all the parents fault. No way for schools to improve on their own. :dumb:

 

Good luck with that. Overall, we have a ton of great educators in this country and they will greatly side with the fact that they can only do so much. The real impact is based on the parents.

And we have some shitty ones too. But no point in investing in our schools since the parent's are THE ONLY ones that matter. :dumb:

ultimately Kerry the dregs of society will burden us all to some extent but in the end, no, they aren't my problem and I'm here to do my part which is what my expectation of everyone else is and that's raise your kids and be a decent parent. not too much to ask of a grown adult looking to be treated with respect from the rest of us around them. I do feel bad for the kids but they are the responsibility of their parents not me. Perhaps those parents need to actually parent responsibly.

 

you feel bad for the kids but fuck 'em they aren't your responsibility they are someone else's so who cares? right? :dumb:

 

 

people much smarter and more motivated than you or me have been trying to figure it out but can't. the reason lies in what I noted above. there's no magic "policy" or economic solution to this Kerry. Not unless you want those kids to all be children of the state. parents and people need to be responsible if your dream of utopia is to come true. until then, the inequalities will continue and the root cause is those you're trying to fix through social programs when all they have to do is grow up themselves. Don't have kids if you can't afford them or take the time to raise and educate them.

 

 

Blah blah blah we should't improve the system because it can't be improved because it costs you too much in taxes. yawn. :dumb:

 

 

The solution lies within each of us Kerry. We can drum up more coaches but even the assholes bitching won't step-up to coach. Where's LeBron James and Michael Jordan and Jesse Jackson in terms of helping inner city Chicago kids? All talk, no action on their part and they sure as hell could do a lot more good than any Gov't program you want to drum up and have the rest of us pay for.

 

Pretty Sure LeBron just opened a school, Jessie Jackson has done more for school integration than you have ever thought about, and Michael Jordan: https://www.businessinsider.com/michael-jordan-donation-childrens-charities-2015-12 That's $23 Million to charities supporting chicago school children alone so what's your point? Oh yeah, there isn't one, you just think it's the responsibility of rich black people to "take care of their own" instead of...ya know...the educational funding we all pay into with taxes. the government can continue to support a system that disproportionately affects people of color as long as uncle Lebron can take care of the kids of Akron.

 

All talk? still?

 

If you're looking to me or anyone on CR to come up with a "solution" then keep dreaming. Again, don't wait around for gov't to help you or me be a better parent. That's no their role, it's ours as individuals.

 

I am not looking for you to come up with any solution, I've already resolved in my mind that you are actually incapable of understanding the parts of the issue that don't fit your "personal responsibility" narrative. I just want you to stop spreading this lie that there is no improvement that can be made to schools and that problems of racially biased education are related solely to the parents. In other words, if you aren't going to help things get better, get the fuck out of other people's way. But you aren't going to do that, you are going to continue pushing this "not my problem" rhetoric and support people who divide this country through ignorance.

[TTQ B4U]

I suspect the higher percentage of non native English speakers is what's bringing the reading score down as an outlier.

 

exactly my point.

 

I find in utter bullshit on your part to say you wouldn't put your kid in all of california's school system when you don't put your kid into the city of columbus's school system either.

so it's BS because I chose to put my kids in Dublin schools? LOL. Can't really deem that as a result of white privilege given the make up of their schools.

 

Got it, no point in fixing anything because it's all the parents fault. No way for schools to improve on their own.

The solution to most anything starts with us as individuals. Feel free to keep looking to others to fix things if you wish. Go to any good school district and you'll find kids that are horrible and very likely their home life is a train wreck.

 

:dumb:

And we have some shitty ones too. But no point in investing in our schools since the parent's are THE ONLY ones that matter.

We do but invest all you want in the schools, if the family unit is fucked up and the parents aren't responsible and doing their job as parents, their kids won't likely do well despite all the investments. Not sure why you inject "no point in investing" as no where did I ever state such a thought. I guess fake news is contagious.

 

you feel bad for the kids but fuck 'em they aren't your responsibility they are someone else's so who cares? right?

:dumb:

When the give-a-shit meter and involvement of parents is at zero that's the core issue, not what me or others do or think. Feel free to keep investing to change that. You'll win a few times but home life and parenting overall is more key to a child s success.

 

We should't improve the system because it can't be improved because it costs you too much in taxes. yawn.

Volunteer as much of your income to help the cause as you wish. I pay more than enough of my income into a broken system to fix what others should be stepping up to address as parents and individuals. No thanks on taking more of my money to help those that won't help themselves.

 

Pretty Sure LeBron just opened a school

He did. Good for him. Lot's of FREE stuff and that's great. It's a start but certainly not a solution unless you want to support free everything for everyone and feel the real BURN in your pocketbook. If that fucker has so much to say to Trump then perhaps he'll take him up on his offer to sit and talk with him. Last week he said he never would. Just like "the king" to put his ego first then bitch about Trump for doing the same.

 

Jessie Jackson has done more for school integration than you have ever thought about

Yeah, he's really changed Chicago for the better....

 

Michael Jordan: https://www.businessinsider.com/michael-jordan-donation-childrens-charities-2015-12 That's $23 Million to charities supporting chicago school children alone so what's your point?

Again, another generous move but not a solution. Let's see both of them make that a self sustaining solution that can perpetuate real change across the country.

 

Oh yeah, there isn't one, you just think it's the responsibility of rich black people to "take care of their own" instead of...ya know...the educational funding we all pay into with taxes. the government can continue to support a system that disproportionately affects people of color as long as uncle Lebron can take care of the kids of Akron.

Again with YOUR injecting of race into a conversation. Not surprising. Yes to your point though. They get all kinds of Kudo's for doing good with their earnings. Charity is easy.....turn that shit into a solution that doesn't involve bleeding the rest of us to support a still-broken core problem and that's still not a solution. Have them begin to address their real core problem which is the families and parenting of all those they are helping. Change the individuals not just mask the problem with more money.

 

I am not looking for you to come up with any solution, I've already resolved in my mind that you are actually incapable of understanding the parts of the issue that don't fit your "personal responsibility" narrative.

You just don't like to try and address and discuss the core issue and would rather type books on everything else. You're no different than the politicians that do the same thing and perpetuate the problem.

 

I just want you to stop spreading this lie that there is no improvement that can be made to schools and that problems of racially biased education are related solely to the parents.

Again with race. Because it's only blacks that are impacted right?

 

In other words, if you aren't going to help things get better, get the fuck out of other people's way.

Who's in your way dude? Your free to go do what you wish. You think your ideas of bleeding the country for more taxes isn't something that's been done throwing good money at broken issues for decades is something you're being cock-blocked at? How's it working so far?

 

But you aren't going to do that, you are going to continue pushing this "not my problem" rhetoric and support people who divide this country through ignorance.

I'm still waiting for the millions that are in bad situations to realize that the rest of us are indeed here to help, but many of us need for them to realize the first step begins with them. What's the first step in recovering from addiction? Same here.

 

The real divide Kerry is because you have a group that wants the real issues addressed an is tired of same old political bullshit and the others that think the answer is for everyone to mask the real problem vs fixing it. Sorry pal, but no, I'm not going to stop holding people accountable for finally fucking being responsible people to society especially when it comes to their role in raising their children. I'm all about helping but it involves those that help themselves. I'm all about helping someone work through their troubles but I will hold them accountable for creating that plan (with some coaching) because it's only when they are following THEIR plan that they will indeed finally own the responsibility.

[greg1647545532]

The

 

two

 

of

 

you

 

are

 

boring

 

as

 

fuck.

 

Nobody

 

wants

 

to

 

read

 

your

 

awful

 

back

 

and

 

forth

 

nonsense.

 

Take

 

it

 

to

 

pm

 

or

 

shut

 

up.

 

..

[Geeto67]

wow, that must have taken a long time.

 

 

Ok, Greg, here's something lite - Astronaut Mark Kelly is a national treasure:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mark-kelly-space-force/

 

This is a dumb idea. The Air Force does this already. That is their job. What’s next, we move submarines to the 7th branch and call it the “under-the-sea force?”

[Brandon]

I like the petition for Lebron to run the department of education. Liberals/Progressives cry scream and moan education is the only way; so lets get a guy who barely graduated high school to run the country's education system because you know Betsy is retarded and cant put up triple doubles.

 

He did a good thing with his earnings by building his (PR relations) school. However that school will also cost a fair amount to the local tax payers over the course of time and they will pay much more then Lebrons start up funding. That is not to say it is a bad move, it still is a good move just realize its not nearly as sweetheart of a deal as it is sold.

[Geeto67]

exactly my point.

 

So speak English or get the fuck out?

 

 

so it's BS because I chose to put my kids in Dublin schools? LOL. Can't really deem that as a result of white privilege given the make up of their schools.

 

No it's BS because you are falsely comparing dublin schools to the entire state of california as a way of continuing your weirdly unnatural hatred of California, instead of actually being objective and looking at what the data bears out.

 

I've lost interest in the rest of what you have to say, it's not intelligent, it's not objective, it's just a whole lot of it ain't my kid it ain't my problem bull-crap because you don't like paying taxes. Nobody likes paying taxes, but somehow you are ok with hurting children to get out of it. Sad.

[TTQ B4U]

So speak English or get the fuck out?

 

Did I say that? Is there a cost associated with not speaking English in both school and in the workforce? Who should shoulder those costs? Is there a limit on the numbers in terms of people or dollars? Should there be? Are we adhering to those costs or are we damaging society by irresponsibility bringing more burdens upon ourselves without ensuring we don't do that first?

 

No it's BS because you are falsely comparing dublin schools to the entire state of california as a way of continuing your weirdly unnatural hatred of California, instead of actually being objective and looking at what the data bears out.

False nothing...I think the same responsibilities apply regardless. Parents who are involved and actually fucking parent can be found everywhere as can those that aren't. Perhaps I'm showing that there are indeed less fortunate ones in Scioto who are still involved and parent despite not being silver spoon people. Proves the point I'm making. My hatred for Cali is based primarily on many there who have a completely fucked up far-left irresponsible way of thinking that's bringing them and this country down.

 

I've lost interest in the rest of what you have to say, it's not intelligent, it's not objective, it's just a whole lot of it ain't my kid it ain't my problem bull-crap because you don't like paying taxes.

No fucks given. Let me know when you realize that those with problems need to first acknowledge the problem and it's source. Until then you're just spending the money of others on better cover-ups of the real problem.

 

Nobody likes paying taxes, but somehow you are ok with hurting children to get out of it. Sad.

Who's hurting the kids? Me? You? Others? Don't think so Kerry. Again, when you man-up and realize that it's high-time individuals own what they create then perhaps you'll make more sense. It's those that you're letting "get out of it" vs my mindset that says they have no option of getting out of it but instead need to grow up and realize that the world they live in isn't happening to them, it's happening because of them. Most of the inequalities in life aren't because people don't care or don't want to help, it's because helping starts from within. You can lead a horse to water but the horse has to have the skill and WILL to drink.

 

It's great that Lebron is opening a school. Great PR and it takes no real skill for a rich athlete to invest money. Let's see him roll up his sleeves and create real change within the community and among the members of the community to foster being better people. To not do drugs, to not get in trouble and go to jail, to sit and be a part of their kids lives, to perhaps not have kids if they have no means to support them properly, to make better choices, etc. You know....basic life responsibilities. That's the ultimate solution.

[RedRocket1647545505]

This is concerning. Discuss:

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/08/13/politics/democrats-nervous-gallup-poll-analysis/index.html

[TTQ B4U]

This is concerning. Discuss:

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/08/13/politics/democrats-nervous-gallup-poll-analysis/index.html

 

A majority (51%) of Americans aged 18-29 have a positive view of socialism while 45% have a positive view of capitalism.

sounds like we should offer them tickets to a far away land so they can achieve their dream of living in a socialist society. let's see if they really enjoy it. I'm surprised Kerry hasn't moved out of country.

[oh8sti]

sounds like we should offer them tickets to a far away land so they can achieve their dream of living in a socialist society. let's see if they really enjoy it. I'm surprised Kerry hasn't moved out of country.

 

We can call it Kerryland with a capital city call Greg.

[greg1647545532]

What part of "I'm a libertarian" do you twats not understand?

 

Panduh, explain to me what socialism is and why you think it's bad. Bonus points for not googling it first.

[Geeto67]

sounds like we should offer them tickets to a far away land so they can achieve their dream of living in a socialist society. let's see if they really enjoy it. I'm surprised Kerry hasn't moved out of country.

 

Whether you like it or not America benefits from Socialism. Labor unions, the shakers and Quakers, the 19th century utoipian communities, and the National Industrial Recovery act (the new deal) are all socialist things that benefit the US and it's citizens.

 

There are some that claim that you can't have a "free market" without socialism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market#Socialist_economics

 

Socialism, is basically just an economic and social theory. It's not inherently political on it's own, and in limited markets it offers some advantages over traditional capitalism. Most of Americans' hatred of socialism comes from cold war propaganda and not any actual understanding of economics and sociology.

 

Authoritarian dictators have mis-used the concepts of socialism by expanding it government rule, so there is some precedent for mistrust of it as a political theory - but as an economic theory it's pretty harmless.

 

TL;DR version: If you hear "socialism" and like snowflake Tim it immediately triggers your feelings of "red scare" and makes you want to scream "wolverines", then congrats you are gullible and ignorant. You are doubly so if you also believe in a "free market".

 

If you hear socialism and you think about labor unions and economics, and that it is one arrow in the quiver of the US economic policy to promote prosperity - then you probably aren't on CR and reading this, or if you are, you already rolled your eyes at Tim's comment and moved on.

[10phone2]

This is concerning. Discuss:

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/08/13/politics/democrats-nervous-gallup-poll-analysis/index.html

 

What do you expect. Geetoo already said that if your black and poor, then your not able to pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

 

Since were discussing the system holding people down... I wonder what are the ethnicity/political/religous affiliation of who owned/founded BET, worldstarhiphop, and for profit prisons.

[CRed05]

This is concerning. Discuss:

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/08/13/politics/democrats-nervous-gallup-poll-analysis/index.html

 

They're still young and a lot of them will grow out of it as they get into the real world and mature (fingers crossed). Socialism is complicated and there are many levels to it that I'm sure no one in that poll fully understands. They probably think of free healthcare and university, which is fine, but then stops there. Not realizing all the complications that go with it and how shitty things can get.

[greg1647545532]

What about all of those Western European and Asian countries that have embraced certain aspects of socialism and are doing just fine? Are they gonna grow out of it too?

 

Certainly there are a lot of low information voters across the political spectrum, certain posters in this thread would be wise to take a look at what their walls are made of.