National Health Care Bill...A national health scare?

[Dweezel]

I pay alot more a year for health insurance than I use.

Just sayin...

[Uncle Punk]

I pay alot more a year for health insurance than I use.

Just sayin...

I understand that sentiment but don't you also pay more for your car and home owners insurance than you use? What is your point...just saying?

[Uncle Punk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGJiuhPi1JY

[Uncle Punk]

http://www.antemedius.com/content/individual-mandate-unconstitutional-exercise-congressional-power

[Disclaimer]

Forcing someone to buy something they don't want or face a fine/prison is absolutely inexcusable.

I understand your argument' date=' and that would work wonderfully if everyone was as responsible as you, never got hurt, never got sick, never did drugs or lived unhealthy lifestyles... but 'these people' end up at the doorsteps of the hospital - and then what?

Ok, if Congress can only regulate commerce, but can't regulate 'non-commerce' as the article states, then the backdoor is just to increase taxes (or reduce funding in other areas) and setup another Medicaid-like fund to pay for all these people who can't afford to pay for themselves.

I mean, technical language isn't going to be a roadblock, the US gov't could setup a single-payer if they wanted and just say "Hey everyone, as an added benefit of being an American, here's health coverage, it's included in your taxes, like is our military and education, aren't we great?"

And, how else do you dissuade people from doing irresponsible things? Jail times/fines. Typically, the responsible people that play by the rules want the people that don't, to be held accountable, no? Ever been hit by an uninsured motorist?

The way I see it is we have two options here:

1) Continue as we are - meaning skyrocketing medical costs where our tax dollars are still subsidizing care for the poor and/or irresponsible without health insurance at the current rate, regardless of how much I live a healthy lifestyle.

or

2) Pass some legislation make everyone contribute [i']something. Those currently contributing nothing with the expectation of care will be mandated to contribute something through the threat of fine/jail. Something > nothing, so even if we are all still footing the tab, it could be a few bucks less than it was.

[Disclaimer]

Once again, the "free market" will not come to your aid when it comes to health insurance. Just think about insurance, the whole goal is to get you to pay something for a service that HAS to cost less than what you give them in order for them to make a profit - spread over all their customers. I don't think health insurance should be a for-profit industry... car insurance, home insurance, fine - you can live without a car and a home, you can't LIVE without medication or medically necessary surgeries.

You shop for your doctors? Where do you get all the information necessary to do so? There's no doctor exchange website that I'm aware of that compares credentials, prices, and reviews. So, are you sure you're actually shopping? And, I'm pretty sure you don't have access to that one doctor in California that you really want, you're stuck with the local yokel doctors due to convenience and timeliness. So it's pretty much a local cartel.

I guess I didn't read where it said the FedGov would back the insurance companies. Oversight and backing are different things. You have a link I can read?

So you concede Medicaid is a necessity, but you also believe a medical issue is grounds to cause someone to go into bankruptcy? So, if you worked for 30+ years, saved for your retirement, your 'nest egg', and its fair that your lifelong work and income could leave you with one doctor visit? You're diagnosed with cancer, your insurance drops you, all the money is coming out of your pocket now while you scramble to give away all your assets to people to hide them from the bill collectors (some of which can't be given away or hidden soon enough)... and once that's dried up, the govt picks up the tab. Versus, someone who had no retirement, no savings, got cancer, and just goes on gov't subsidy right away since they have no assets. Where's the incentive for normal people to save? That's not right.

On the bankruptcy thing, who gets shafted there - the creditors, well, if the hospital can't afford their bills from taking care of people who just up and file for bankruptcy, then guess what? No more hospital. Why should the staff, doctors, nurses, admins at the hospital get shafted? "Thanks for taking care of me, sorry I can't pay you, I have no monies, hopefully some rich people will come in and get sick for you", but they don't - because they do the same thing any rational people would do, hide their assets from the creditors and let the gov't foot the bill.

So, if the gov't is footing the bill on all this stuff ANYWAY, why are we playing these games? The people making money are the lawyers and insurance companies on top of all this mess.

It's more economical and keeps the society healthier if medical issues DON'T cause people to lose all their assets or go bankrupt.

[Dweezel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account

Just sayin...

One of the many reasons I love you Paulie

[Dweezel]

I understand that sentiment but don't you also pay more for your car and home owners insurance than you use? What is your point...just saying?

yeah but it doesn't cost me a co-pay or a stupid premium every time i walk into my house or start my car/bike.

Also eventually i'll be done paying for my house, and then if I sell it, I get my money (and probably then some) back. I'd like to see you sell and insurance policy.

[Disclaimer]

When you're done with your body, you can sell it to science. The sooner you quit living the sooner you can sell, the more money can can get for it!

[dmagicglock]

medical care is a tangible good and can't be defined as a "right". end of discussion

[dmagicglock]

can you imagine the cost of auto insurance if say state farm was "forced" to take on all DUI drivers and vehicular manslaughters. Our rates would go through the roof! and eventually that insurance company would go out of business.

If fannie mae and freddie mac were forced to give loans to the "less fortunate" who were trying to live outside their means... and it lead to the housing collapse... How can we expect to do the same thing to the insurance companies (with pre-existing conditions - an investment they're guaranteed to lose money on) and somehow expect a different result? Cheers to the next big financial collapse in America!

[Disclaimer]

Yes' date=' you can and you will most certainly die with medication and medically necessary surgeries, but that's not the point. Besides, how is the government getting involved going to lower cost? [/quote']

How does it work in all the other industrialized nations? A lot it is eliminating overhead / paperwork.

You've never interviewed a doctor or gotten referrals from patients? How do you know which doctor you should go to if you have no idea of how they treat their patients?

Actually' date=' I haven't... I've researched the credentials of them in my network, but that's about the extent I could - and I haven't made a selection yet. I don't have a 'primary care physician' since I left my parents roof.

Here's one. I can find more, but I'm sure you can as well. This bill is chock full 'o terrible legislation.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/17/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5990684.shtml

I guess either I misinterpreted what you meant by backing the insurance industry, or something - I thought you meant like, they back fannie/freddie (ie. won't let them fail), you mean back as in 'support'?

I'm saying this bill will not prevent that. I'm saying the insurance companies still maintain the ability to railroad their customers. This bill is full of fail.

Agreed' date=' customers can still be railroaded, but this is what you get when you get a bill full of lobbyist, partisan, 'compromises'.... fail, but step in the right direction.

"We can't implement electric power. What will all the candle makers do?"

I'm not quite sure where you're going with this and how it applies to hospitals being self-sufficient...

Don't forget the millionaire Governors' date=' Senators and Congressmen/women...

[url']http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/11/the-100-million-health-care-vote.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-medicare-california19-2009nov19,0,4818686.story

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/6719913.html

Trust me, I haven't forgotten them

[Disclaimer]

can you imagine the cost of auto insurance if say state farm was "forced" to take on all DUI drivers and vehicular manslaughters. Our rates would go through the roof! and eventually that insurance company would go out of business.

If fannie mae and freddie mac were forced to give loans to the "less fortunate" who were trying to live outside their means... and it lead to the housing collapse... How can we expect to do the same thing to the insurance companies (with pre-existing conditions - an investment they're guaranteed to lose money on) and somehow expect a different result? Cheers to the next big financial collapse in America!

1) You don't choose to get cancer, like you choose to drink and drive.

2) I dunno if you've been reading the news... but the health care industry is the next big collapse if we don't DO SOMETHING about it

[dmagicglock]

1) You don't choose to get cancer, like you choose to drink and drive.

2) I dunno if you've been reading the news... but the health care industry is the next big collapse if we don't DO SOMETHING about it

Oh the sky is falling!!!!! I better get my foil hat

weird how before Obama was elected we didn't have such a huge healthcare crisis? Also weird how they have to pass cloture on this bill at 1 a.m. but it doesn't take effect for four years? If you ask me its just as you say... "fear mongering" and scare tactics by the dems where they've manufactured a crisis. You can try and argue for socialized medicine all you want, but anyone in their right mind can't argue for the legislation thats being passed right now.

How do you feel knowing our tax payer dollars are going to pay for Nebraska's medicaid bill for infinity... Yes thats right FOREVER, just so they could buy his vote. Or how about the 300 million dollars Senator Landrieu from Louisiana was bribed to get her vote. Don't get me wrong I'm not for the bill period, but if I was... I'd be kind of sad ol' sherrod brown didn't secure any goodies for our state. At the end of the day its legalized bribery... And yet we intrust our healthcare system aka 1/6th of our GDP to these unethical bastards? So while I normally entertain myself with a good political debate with you Justin; I'm just afraid all your google searches in the world on healthcare isn't going to outweigh common sense and the terrible track record of our politicians.

[Gump]

Move to Alaska, Healthcare is free.

[Disclaimer]

Oh the sky is falling!!!!! I better get my foil hat

weird how before Obama was elected we didn't have such a huge healthcare crisis?

Are you seriously that ignorant and sheltered? I have TONS of links to share that show otherwise.

Also weird how they have to pass cloture on this bill at 1 a.m. but it doesn't take effect for four years?

A lot of that is Republican obstructionism, and if people told you to change the way you do things, you'd be ok with changing your life overnight? Gimme a break, four years is a ramp up period to get shit in order before 'go-live'. You don't have a lot of project management background do you?

If you ask me its just as you say... "fear mongering" and scare tactics by the dems where they've manufactured a crisis.

It's not manufactured, the budget projections show we can't even support our military at current level in the next 30 years. You even said later in your post that it's 1/6th the GDP, well, it's rising, so what do we do when it's 50% of the GDP And I can't imagine any other manufactured 'crisis'... War on Terror, War on Drugs

And yet we intrust our healthcare system aka 1/6th of our GDP to these unethical bastards?

So, in the present system, it's ethical to pay for health insurance for 30 years (with minimal level of care) and then once you're diagnosed with cancer, they drop you - take all that money you've paid in and they've made PROFIT off of, and run? You want to talk about ethics, then a FOR-PROFIT health care system does not belong in there.

So while I normally entertain myself with a good political debate with you Justin; I'm just afraid all your google searches in the world on healthcare isn't going to outweigh common sense and the terrible track record of our politicians.

You're scared of information? You'd rather base your decisions on your 'gut feel' and 'what you've been told'... See, blanket statements like 'common sense' and 'terrible track record' once you start LOOKING for them, don't usually appear. Where is this 'terrible track record' you speak of? from who? That's a fear mongering blanket statement with no basis.

[dmagicglock]

scared of information? maybe you're scared of reality?

Amtrak = fail

Post office = fail

Medicare = fail

Social Security = fail

IRS = fail

FEMA = fail

Dept. of Education = fail

Fanny Mae = fail

healthcare = total success, i just know it!

I'm sure there's a ton of things I could add to this... but I don't have time and don't really care because I know if Obama himself told you healthcare would fail and he was just doing it to redistribute wealth (cause its good to spread it around), you still wouldn't believe me.

To each their own... I will say though, in 10 years if our healthcare system has gone to shit from public option, I will find this thread and resurrect it! And if it's great and I'm totally wrong.. i expect you to do the same.

[Uncle Punk]

^ That list is very incomplete.

I will say that at what the federal government is for, National Defense and infrastructure we are second to none. Just think how much better we could do in those areas if we weren’t so distracted with these other worthless ventures.

[dustinsn3485]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12/24/senate-poised-pass-health-care-reform/

It passed...

[RVTPilot]

This bill, if it becomes reality in its current state, will cost my employer $17-20 annually in the tax that the bill will assess health care equipment manufacturers. That will cost us literally hundreds of US jobs, and the R&D that is so essential to our industry, our company's success, and the tens of millions of Medicare/Medicaid users who get our euipment at a fixed rate. Yeah, good idea, Dems! Let's give everyone in the nation some sort of health care and then have it, and its life-saving equipment be antiquated in 3-5 years. Oh, and cost the state of Ohio 300 or 400 more jobs in the coming year.

[dustinsn3485]

It's unconstitutional. The FedGov can't force us to buy goods or services. That's what insurance is. This will get blasted into oblivion just as soon as the first case makes its way to the SCOTUS. Washington just wasted millions upon millions of dollars for nothing.... again.

Merry Christmas' date=' USA.[/quote']

I'm not arguing, but it seems the Constitution doesn't mean squat to our current government...

[Uncle Punk]

I hope I'm wrong about this but I don't think this can be challenged until someone has cause. The penalty phase of this scheme doesn't take effect for a few more years so I can't see how anyone will have standing until then. If someone can find a way to get this to the current court I'm sure it would be defeated. If a case has to wait until after Obama gets to appoint new judges the outcome will most likely not be good for the American people. I really hope this clown doesn't get re-elected and get the opportunity to get the court stacked against us.

[Disclaimer]

You guys realize the sky hasn't fallen yet right? From the article...

Now that both the House of Representatives and Senate have finished their votes -- the House passed its version in November -- the two chambers must reconcile their starkly different bills.

Also... read this:

Medical Charts: The Senate vs. the House on Health Care Reform

http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzzlog/93274

[gsxrnurse]

1) You don't choose to get cancer, like you choose to drink and drive.

2) I dunno if you've been reading the news... but the health care industry is the next big collapse if we don't DO SOMETHING about it

Doesn't smoking cause cancer? I can choose to smoke if I want.

Doesn't alcoholism cause liver failure? I can choose to drink.

Doesn't eating too much cause obesity? I can choose how much to eat.

Doesn't eating too much fat / fatty foods cause high blood pressure / heart problems? I can choose what to eat.

Doesn't screwing nasty people with out protection casue STD's? I can choose who I fuck.

I guess if you actually think about it we have a large influence on our overall health. There are exceptions to the rules but you might be surprised to see how many people are in the hospital because of decisions that they made. I guess we can consider the point that you made null.

[dmagicglock]

^^ posts like these are a reminder of why we should still have rep