Ron Paul to Sunshine Patriots: Stop Your Demagogy About The NYC Mosque!

[fusion]

I'm still saddened there are retards...sorry...Palin-Americans that actually believe this was an attack based on religion.

[magley64]

I'm still saddened there are retards...sorry...Palin-Americans that actually believe this was an attack based on religion.

^

this

Religion may have been a factor... the "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak, but it wouldn't have mattered if they were islamic, jewish, or christian (just accounting for the big 3). There are passages in all of the abrahamic religions for the killing of non-believers, infidels, heathens, and other people who don't follow your exact religion.

[chevysoldier]

I'm still saddened there are retards...sorry...Palin-Americans that actually believe this was an attack based on religion.

What was it based on then?

[fusion]

^

this

Religion may have been a factor... the "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak, but it wouldn't have mattered if they were islamic, jewish, or christian (just accounting for the big 3). There are passages in all of the abrahamic religions for the killing of non-believers, infidels, heathens, and other people who don't follow your exact religion.

It's not even that. This was one hundred percent political. It didn't become religious until both "sides" (US Politicians and OBL) realized they could blow this into much more than it would have been. OBL even first said this was political based on our policies and dealing with Saudi Arabia. He's always been after us because of our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Now politicians, bigots and wing-nuts have given OBL exactly what he wanted.

Edited August 23, 2010 by fusion
err 100%

[John]

no one bitches when a catholic church is built next to a playground...

[Cheech]

What was it based on then?

It's not even that. This was one percent political. It didn't become religious until both "sides" (US Politicians and OBL) realized they could blow this into much more than it would have been. OBL even first said this was political based on our policies and dealing with Saudi Arabia. He's always been after us because of our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Now politicians, bigots and wing-nuts have given OBL exactly what he wanted.

Asked and answered.

This little nugget was on digg this morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwaNRWMN-F4

The guy in question isn't Muslim. At all. He is, however, black and bearded so he must be a Muslim terrorist, right?

How can these assholes call themselves Americans when they are blatantly trampling on one of the core rights of the Constitution? The funny thing is, I'm willing to bet that a LARGE majority of people at that rally weren't from the NYC area, and an even larger majority aren't from the Lower Manhattan area.

[InyaAzz]

no one bitches when a catholic church is built next to a playground...

Lock it up. QFT.

[chevysoldier]

What about the '96 and '98 fatwas?

[fusion]

What about the '96 and '98 fatwas?

Assuming you don't actually understand what a fatwa is...

Links?

[chevysoldier]

Assuming you don't actually understand what a fatwa is...

Links?

Google it.

The September 11th attacks were an organized political act carried out by 19 hijackers, and organized by numerous members of al-Qaeda. Reasons for the attacks were stated before and after the attacks in several sources, including the Fatawā of Osama bin Laden

Before the attacks, Al-Qaeda issued proclamations that provide insight into the motivations for the attacks: one was the fatwā of August 1996,[2] and a second was a shorter fatwa in February 1998.[3] Both documents appeared initially in the Arabic-language London newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi and they specifically mentioned support of Israel by the U.S. and the presence of the U.S. in Saudi Arabia.[2][3] After the attacks, bin Laden and al-Zawahiri have published dozens of video tapes and audio tapes, many describing the motivations for the attacks. Two particularly important publications were bin Laden's 2002 "Letter to America"[4], and a 2004 video tape by bin Laden.[5] In addition to direct pronouncements by bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, numerous political analysts have postulated motivations for the attacks.

1996 fatwā

Bin Laden's 1996 fatwā is entitled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places". This document is sometimes called the Ladenese epistle, a term derived from bin Laden's surname. It is a long piece, and complains of American activities in numerous countries. It was faxed to supporters across the world.[4]

1998 Fatwa

The signatories as a group were identified as the "World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders". This fatwā complains of American military presence in the Arabian Peninsula, and American support for Israel. It purports to provide religious authorization for indiscriminate killing of Americans and Jews everywhere. It appeared in February 1998 and the embassy bombings followed in August.

[fusion]

First, only Islamic legal scholars can issue fatwas.

Second, that makes those not Fatwas.

Third, try to read a little closer, both are complaining about American presences over there. Neither claim it being one religion vs the next. He merely uses religion as a tool much like politicians in America do.

1996 fatwā

Bin Laden's 1996 fatwā is entitled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places". This document is sometimes called the Ladenese epistle, a term derived from bin Laden's surname. It is a long piece, and complains of American activities in numerous countries. It was faxed to supporters across the world.[4]

1998 Fatwa

The signatories as a group were identified as the "World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders". This fatwā complains of American military presence in the Arabian Peninsula, and American support for Israel. It purports to provide religious authorization for indiscriminate killing of Americans and Jews everywhere. It appeared in February 1998 and the embassy bombings followed in August.

OBL's primary beef is our involvement in Saudi Arabia and he extends that as far as he can and will use whatever he can (read: religion, neighboring countries) to get what he wants. Like I said his beef isn't Islam vs the world, it's our involvement and presence in areas like Saudi Arabia.

[Disclaimer]

I missed that one.

I need to quit putting my quips in my long diatribes then...

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showpost.php?p=548454&postcount=14

Now' date=' if you want to get into a discussion on secularism, we can do that too. I'd much prefer to not even have to discuss religious buildings and where they should/should not be placed. [b']Should a Catholic church be placed next to a little kids playground? I dunno - given their history. See, the "Where is it located?" debate is just dumb.

[ped]

wow ron paul is basically a liberal in disguise. what a traitor. "principles" dont hold water over propaganda R-Paul, get with the program. now tow the lineor else...

Edited August 24, 2010 by ped

[Uncle Punk]

wow ron paul is basically a liberal in disguise. what a traitor. "principles" dont hold water over propaganda R-Paul, get with the program. now tow the lineor else...

I think I missed your point here, are you saying that when he defends a constitutional right for someone to be free to exercise that right he is being liberal and traitorous? Oh, I get it, you're saying that the people who claim to be conservative around here don't have any real conviction behind their beliefs when their idealism gets challenged by something that they don't like but doesn't violate what they claim to be a core value.

Don't let me put words in your mouth though.

[fusion]

Don't let me put words in your mouth though.

At least it's only words this time.

[Disclaimer]

[magley64]

basically, everyone is pissed off at us for being cocky, and invading their countries all the time, then use whatever justification they want (or can find) to attack us...

in this case they decided to use a religious justification. why? because they know their country is full of religious zealots, and our country is full of different religious zealots.

[ped]

I think I missed your point here, are you saying that when he defends a constitutional right for someone to be free to exercise that right he is being liberal and traitorous? Oh, I get it, you're saying that the people who claim to be conservative around here don't have any real conviction behind their beliefs when their idealism gets challenged by something that they don't like but doesn't violate what they claim to be a core value.

Don't let me put words in your mouth though.

yes, politics is bullshit. and politicians dont really care about values because their voter base doesnt. and thats all that matters. if you notics the psuedo-two parties we have only go back and forth on what piece of the consitution they care about while the rest can be used for some nice toilet paper.

what we have to choose from today are which ones wont shit on the liberty or two you care about the most.

as for paul being a liberal, yes that exactly what he his. in any other country he would be called a liberal democrat. but we bastardize words in the great orwellian fashion that they basically have no meaning. freemarket capitalism for instance is utter liberalism at its absolute. liberalism is what founded this country, it is its very nature. liberalism means gun ownership as much as it means religious freedom. but nowadays the supposed morons that support capitalism as their second religion have confused it with fascism where corporations and bankers control from the top down.

Edited August 25, 2010 by ped

[psyco1]

Hey, you know that mosque up there in NYC? The biggest Fox News stock owner after Rupert Murdoch is helping fund it. Maybe they're just banking on stupid people to boost ratings.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-august-23-2010-rod-blagojevich

[magley64]

Hey, you know that mosque up there in NYC? The biggest Fox News stock owner after Rupert Murdoch is helping fund it. Maybe they're just banking on stupid people to boost ratings.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-august-23-2010-rod-blagojevich

I thought it was funny, too...

[fusion]

Who else would control capitalism? The people that own and control the capital and product (banks and business). For the most part people's influence is only as great as the options presented. Once business grows to a certain point that's all you get.

Completely free and wild capitalism works about as well as a pure democracy, it doesn't.

[ped]

I understand the difference between "true capitalism" and "crony capitalism". I also understand your point about our nation being founded on "liberalism". There is a difference between "liberals" and "Liberals". However' date=' I'm still confused about the whole "Ron Paul is a liberal democrat" rhetoric. [/quote']

liberalism is a principle. what we have right now are christians and "commoners" that are upset over the mosque. they're emotional. not rational and principled. its often politically dangerous to be princpled as it gives fodder to political 'enemies.' and more and more we dont value even basic consitutional principles.

Also' date=' the only reason bankers "control" capitalism is because We The People got lazy and let others do our thinking for us. We get the nation/government we deserve. [/quote']

okay, who said bankers "control capitalism?" that doesnt make sense on any level so i have no idea what you're talking about and i get the sense you dont understand monetary economics much. if you mean intrest regulation then okay. i said they control from the top down. the market isnt the top, money is. they control money itself.

perhaps you might do well to read some RP books and research the role of central banking and the federal reserve in our country. as well as the history to their opposition, which goes back to the start.

its essentially one giant scheme to ensure the rich get richer through constant inflation.

if you want to understand paul better try starting here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji_G0MqAqq8&feature=related

Edited August 25, 2010 by ped

[cg2112]

The project is primarily a cultural center, with prayer space inside, not even technically a mosque (a mosque is, by definition, a building dedicated to worship).

That said, I don't see why it would make a difference either way. Aside from zoning issues (which are non-issues, anyway), I can't think of any good reason to oppose the project. In fact, I don't think I've seen someone in the media give a single reason for opposing this project that wasn't ultimately based in ignorance and bigotry. That's not to say that everyone who opposes the project is a bigot, but that doesn't mean that they don't have opinions rooted in bigotry.

[Disclaimer]

Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims

[omaralaoui]

sorry guys i have been watching this thread but as a muslim , i guess i gotta jumping .

I was watching some of the "debate" on hannity the other day.

they kept repeating :

1. 68% of americans don't want this built

A. Who the fuck cares? it's not their choice.

A.we should care as muslim that it is their choice. however , the majority of the 68% probably was not educated on the issue,and with people listening to someone like pamela geller and robert spencer calling this park51 project a " 18 stories islamic supremacist mega mosque on ground zero" (close ur eyes and imagine that ) , it would be understandable that the "majority" are opposed.plus ,polls are important but not a base for a decision , example : a majority of americans believed there was wmds in iraq, a majority of americans believed iraq had ties with alqaeda, 20% or americans believe obama is a muslim...etc

this article said it better than i could:

Sensibility says: “This is adding insult to injury. How dare they?”

Sense responds: “How can you say ‘How dare they?’ when the American Muslims building the mosque are fighting the fanaticism and xenophobia of those who flew the planes into the twin towers?”

Sensibility says: “That’s what they say. They’re all alike.”

Reason cannot calm the storm of emotion, and emotion usually wins, until it settles down and allows reason to rise again and apologize on behalf of it. Americans are generally decent and fair people with a commitment to sense, but some of us, swept up by our passions, wade too far into a sea of sensibility.

2. "Moderate" muslims don't support the building

A. since when does being moderate make you correct?

A.unfounded, most muslims in the united states won't even directly benefit from park51,but ever since matters got out of hands with other mosques being built in other parts of the country, now most muslims are supporting the project.

3. this emam is a radical (spelling?)

A. I don't give a shit if he's a gorilla, it's not your call.

A.well it is their call magley, the same way we do not want newt gingrich as president ,they should be able to at least have a say.but,he was used by the bush and obama administrations as a bridge builder, he is not a radical and anybody that ever claimed he is a radical has no evidence to show it except interpretations of things he said twisted to benefit their agendas.