Court Rules Stolen Valor Act Unconstitutional

[Disclaimer]

He was under oath. He lied.

Yea, that was wrong, but in the grand scheme -- that still makes GWB ok because he wasn't under oath and lied?

To me, oath or not, a liar is a liar -- now, depending on what we're talking about will depend how much of a douchebag you are in my eyes. BJs don't kill innocent soldiers -- well, except when Inya was in the military. His uniform was ordered to have this stitched on it.

[vw151]

He was under oath. He lied.

Sure, I can lie about having an award and not gain anything from it, monetary wise. But misleading the public or your fellow troopers is wrong. The military fighting man is a position that should not be tarnished by fuck sticks that think it is okay to say they got a purple heart when the didn't. It detracts from the real meaning of the awards and hinders the military. If enough people see soldiers in this kind of light, the support for them will suffer. How many people on here complain about bikers doing stupid shit and a lot of the public hates all bikers based on those select few.

The military is quite different from the general public. There is a certain set of rules and honor that goes with it. Loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage. Those are the army's core values.

My main point about lying is the fact that you are lying about orders, government paperwork. It's no different than impersonating a government official. There are orders making them a government official. If there really was nothing to gain from this, why do it in the first place? If they want to fake their honors, let them be tried by military tribunal.

Look at it this way. Impersonating a cop is against the law because you could do it to potentially rob someone, pull them over or generally gain the upper hand in a situation. Someone impersonating a police officer is potentially harmful to others.

Now, although I agree that our military personal deserve our utmost respect and honor. I don't see someone lying about it as a threat to society. No one is going to pull me over on the highway with their purple heart or arrest me with their medal of honor.

If we wanted to go down the honor road then there are a lot of people that deserve our respect and the slippery slope of convicting liars because it disrespects a person that truly deserves our respect is pretty steep. For instance, as you said, it's unfortunate there are a lot of squids on sport bikes giving motorcycles a bad name. We certainly aren't going to arrest the squids on account of them tarnishing the name of the motorcycle community. Of course that is ridiculous.

I really think we need to differentiate between people deserving a very high level of respect and honor for the great things they have done for our country and people who could be considered a threat to our society. Or the difference between needing to preserve an organizations reputation as apposed to protecting our citizens from harm.

What kind of chaos would there be if every car on the road was a cop car whether the people were cops or not? You can buy police auction cop cars, but the lights and decals have to be removed. What if they weren't. What kind of havoc could a mischievous kid cause with that, or worse a killer, rapist or child molester.

Would the same chaos in sue if everyone on the road had veteran plates or was wearing medals of honor or purple hearts? No, it'd be a disgrace to our military, but no one would be at risk like the above example.

So I guess the point is, no one here disagrees that our military deserves respect and honor. You just need to draw the line somewhere on what is criminal and what is not and that line is somewhere between threat to society and disrespect.

Edited August 26, 2010 by vw151

[Cheech]

Clinton lied under oath about getting a BJ. Oh but that didn't hurt anybody.

Tens of thousands of people didn't die over it.

[chevysoldier]

Yea, that was wrong, but in the grand scheme -- that still makes GWB ok because he wasn't under oath and lied?

To me, oath or not, a liar is a liar -- now, depending on what we're talking about will depend how much of a douchebag you are in my eyes. BJs don't kill innocent soldiers -- well, except when Inya was in the military. His uniform was ordered to have this stitched on it.

Tens of thousands of people didn't die over it.

But yet a normal person would have had what charges brought against them for lying under oath? Perjury? Why even swear an oath in court if you can lie. Why swear an oath to the military if you can reap some benefits of it witouth actually serving.

Look at it this way. Impersonating a cop is against the law because you could do it to potentially rob someone, pull them over or generally gain the upper hand in a situation. Someone impersonating a police officer is potentially harmful to others.

Now, although I agree that our military personal deserve our utmost respect and honor. I don't see someone lying about it as a threat to society. No one is going to pull me over on the highway with their purple heart or arrest me with their medal of honor.

If we wanted to go down the honor road then there are a lot of people that deserve our respect and the slippery slope of convicting liars because it disrespects a person that truly deserves our respect is pretty steep.

I really think we need to differentiate between people deserving a very high level of respect and honor for the great things they have done for our country and people who could be considered a threat to our society.

What kind of chaos would there be if every car on the road was a cop car whether the people were cops or not? You can buy police auction cop cars, but the lights and decals have to be removed. What if they weren't. What kind of havoc could a mischievous kid cause with that, or worse and killer, rapist or child molester.

Would the same chaos in sue if everyone on the road had veteran plates or was wearing medals of honor or purple hearts? No, it'd be a disgrace to our military, but no one would be at risk like the above example.

So I guess the point is, no one here disagrees that our military deserves respect and honor. You just need to draw the line somewhere on what is criminal and what is not and that line is somewhere between threat to society and disrespect.

You can't get veteran plates without proof. Can't get purple heart plates without orders.

What if I wanted to buy lights and stick them on my car? I didn't pull anyone over, I didn't arrest anyone. I didn't hurt anyone. I just wanted to get some respect for being a cop?

And we are not talking about respecting a person at all. Its respect of the military.

This is why we are in half the shit were are in now anyways. No body has any fucking morals anymore.

[kawi kid]

The ninth circus strikes again lol

[vw151]

But yet a normal person would have had what charges brought against them for lying under oath? Perjury? Why even swear an oath in court if you can lie. Why swear an oath to the military if you can reap some benefits of it witouth actually serving.

You can't get veteran plates without proof. Can't get purple heart plates without orders.

What if I wanted to buy lights and stick them on my car? I didn't pull anyone over, I didn't arrest anyone. I didn't hurt anyone. I just wanted to get some respect for being a cop?

And we are not talking about respecting a person at all. Its respect of the military.

This is why we are in half the shit were are in now anyways. No body has any fucking morals anymore.

I am illustrating a point. I'm aware you need proof. I completely agree that it's morally wrong and disrespectful. I just don't think it's criminally wrong.

My statements are a bunch of Ifs. If someone was able to convince society they are a purple heart it doesn't give them a dominating leg up on everyone else like a police badge, uniform and car does. That's all I'm saying. Either way lying is wrong.

If you wanted to make your car into a cop car to get respect that is great. But it gives you the ability to deceive people in a much more harmful way. That is why it's illegal. You might want to own an automatic weapon but have no intentions of killing a bunch of people. But the automatic weapon gives you the ability to kill a lot of people quickly so it's illegal. I'm not saying these laws are right or wrong per say. I'm just saying I can totally see where criminalizing lying about your military exploits opens the door for the authorities to pry even deeper into your private life. I don't think we need that on the account of saving honor and disrespect. And generally the people that are lying about this stuff that are truly harmful can probably be arrested on other illegal things they are doing anyway. It's more a spirit of the law thing I guess. Some bum on the street says he is a purple heart and you buy him a 40oz. Very little harm done. In bigger situations the lie about being a vet is probably one of many lies and deceitful things said. What if I lied to some kid about being his dad that he never met. How disrespectful is that. Is that illegal? No. Can the kid look into it if he wants. Yes.

You know. Maybe a better analogy would be the flag burning law. It's illegal to burn a flag for pretty much the same argument everyone is rooting for on the lying about medals thing. I can't see a difference there and based on that law it should be illegal.

Edited August 26, 2010 by vw151

[redkow97]

Be careful not to cite (potential) CIVIL damages. This is a criminal charge we're talking about.

If another soldier is ACTUALLY (monetarily) damaged as a result of the liar claiming he has all these military honors, the damaged party can bring a civil suit.

[Cheech]

I am illustrating a point. I'm aware you need proof. I completely agree that it's morally wrong and disrespectful. I just don't think it's criminally wrong.

My statements are a bunch of Ifs. If someone was able to convince society they are a purple heart it doesn't give them a dominating leg up on everyone else like a police badge, uniform and car does. That's all I'm saying. Either way lying is wrong.

If you wanted to make your car into a cop car to get respect that is great. But it gives you the ability to deceive people in a much more harmful way. That is why it's illegal.

You know. Maybe a better analogy would be the flag burning law. It's illegal to burn a flag for pretty much the same argument everyone is rooting for on the lying about medals thing. I can't see a difference there and based on that law it should be illegal.

Bingo.

[Cheech]

But yet a normal person would have had what charges brought against them for lying under oath? Perjury? Why even swear an oath in court if you can lie. Why swear an oath to the military if you can reap some benefits of it witouth actually serving.

You are changing the premise of your comparison. I'm not talking about normal people, I'm talking about Clinton's lie vs. Bush's lie.

[vw151]

Be careful not to cite (potential) CIVIL damages. This is a criminal charge we're talking about.

If another soldier is ACTUALLY (monetarily) damaged as a result of the liar claiming he has all these military honors, the damaged party can bring a civil suit.

Well civil suits are an entirely different thing and I wouldn't doubt a soldier could win a case against a liar in those cases and I honestly don't have a problem with that either on a case by case basis.

I'm really not trying to say that these people should just be left to go around tarnishing the military. I really do think it's wrong. I just don't think arresting them is the answer.

[redkow97]

I'm really not trying to say that these people should just be left to go around tarnishing the military. I really do think it's wrong. I just don't think arresting them is the answer.

Totally agree.

my comment was directed at whoever posted something about applying for a job and getting it because they lied about their qualifications. Military honors certainly set you apart in a pile of resumes.

Legally, that situation is actionable, but it's not criminal.

[Cheech]

Legally, that situation is actionable, but it's not criminal.

Under what grounds? Fraud? I'm genuinely curious.

[cg2112]

But yet a normal person would have had what charges brought against them for lying under oath? Perjury? Why even swear an oath in court if you can lie. Why swear an oath to the military if you can reap some benefits of it witouth actually serving.

Lying under oath is not necessarily perjury. Many do not feel that Clinton committed perjury, as information about his extra-marital affair was not necessarily material to the Paula Jones case (to be perjury, the lie must be material to the case).

That said Clinton DID have charges brought against him. He was charged with perjury and obstruction of justice.

[vw151]

Totally agree.

my comment was directed at whoever posted something about applying for a job and getting it because they lied about their qualifications. Military honors certainly set you apart in a pile of resumes.

Legally, that situation is actionable, but it's not criminal.

I assume he means the company could fire you upon finding out that you lied about your qualifications and or could sue you.

I feel that the responsibility also rests with the hiring company to check this stuff out.

but even on match.com or where ever else this sort of information might gain you an advantage it's on the other party to do their best to be a good judge of character. There are liars all over the place and military honors is just 1 of many things a person could lie about to try and make themselves look more favorable. It's the sad truth.

You know, I will say this. If someone was in court, civil or criminal on any charge. I don't think information regarding falsifying military honors is going to put you in a favorable position with a judge.

Edited August 26, 2010 by vw151

[InyaAzz]

There is a lot of common sense makin' going on in this thread and you know that shit ain't allowed on here.

[John]

Okay, please show me where this case originated in Colorado, and that Bush appointed 3 of these judges. And was the one who voted to uphold the law appointed by Bush? If the 9th covers cali, washington, oregon, montana, idaho, nevada, hawaii and arizona, and this originated in Colorado, why did it go to the 9th?

i was wrong about colorado. i thought this was US v. strandlof, guy was charged under the stolen valor act in in colorado. it was ruled as unconstitutional by a district court judge there (robert blackburn, who was also appointed by bush). the article stated that this was US v. alvarez, which DID originate in california, which explains why its in the ninth.

as for bush appointing the three judges, go to the ninth circuit webpage or the federal judicial center webpage and look up the biographies of the judges who sat for this case. you will see that all three were appointed by bush. thomas nelson, milan smith and the dissenter, jay bybee.

maybe they overturned it because bush appointed true conservatives who believe in less government intervention, and the government policing the line between truth and falsity is not that at all?

here is their decision too. read it, it tells you their entire line of thinking and how they came to the decision:

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/08/17/08-50345.pdf

Edited August 26, 2010 by John

[ReconRat]

The origins of honoring the Medal of Honor was... well... a matter of Honor, whodathunk. And penalties were put in place to prevent dishonor of that highest honor of the land. Somehow that spread to penalties for impersonating a "military hero" other than a Medal of Honor recipient, and the result is that all is shot down in the courts, for lack of... well... understanding honor.

And the gov/fed/police already track your every move through your GPS, as required, whether you've got it on or off, or even think you don't have one in your phone. Surprise! (Not to mention cell phone tower triangulation if the GPS fails...)

Edited August 26, 2010 by ReconRat

[John]

And the gov/fed/police already track your every move through your GPS, as required, whether you've got it on or off, or even think you don't have one in your phone. Surprise! (Not to mention cell phone tower triangulation if the GPS fails...)

thats why you buy your phone for 20 dollars cash at the corner market, and then buy a pre-paid card to fill it with minutes. again, pay with cash.

if shit gets hot, throw the phone in the trash. go buy another

[ReconRat]

thats why you buy your phone for 20 dollars cash at the corner market, and then buy a pre-paid card to fill it with minutes. again, pay with cash.

if shit gets hot, throw the phone in the trash. go buy another

Correct, or even funnier... trade phones with one of the homeless that has a free Federal phone...

Although, as soon as you dial up a known contact, you're located again.

[Disclaimer]

fear

There is not enough manpower to track 'normal' people like ORDN people. Though I use the term 'normal' to mean relatively harmless, regardless of how mentally unstable you may have to be to post here.

[ReconRat]

fear

There is not enough manpower to track 'normal' people like ORDN people. Though I use the term 'normal' to mean relatively harmless, regardless of how mentally unstable you may have to be to post here.

I said as required, duh, it requires a warrant. And wouldn't have to with anyone on here. Theirs is trackable by logging in here, pretty much.

Edited August 27, 2010 by ReconRat

[psyco1]

thats why you buy your phone for 20 dollars cash at the corner market, and then buy a pre-paid card to fill it with minutes. again, pay with cash.

if shit gets hot, throw the phone in the trash. go buy another

Sounds like a scene from HBO's The Wire.

[C-bus]

Every time Bush, Clinton, or Obama is mentioned on OR, an alert is sounded at the secret service and tracking is initiated. Shit, did it again. Maybe impersonating a war hero isn't unconstitutional, but either is Code Red ....... a well deserved ass-beating. You're goddamn right he gave the order. carry on.

[John]