Senate Bill 5

[cg2112]

For any of you guys who haven't heard much about this guy, or heard any of his interviews, it's like a breath of fresh air. Can we please spread some of the "Chris Christie" fiscal responsibility around ALL politicians/citizens? (The first vid is especially fun, and somewhat relevant to this discussion)

[cOoTeR]

I don't want to see teachers, police, or firefighters/emergency workers lose pay or benefits. But too many of you are under the illusion that the union gives a shit about you. Dues, my friends.... they care about dues. Have any of you been at the table? In every one of my experiences at "the table" with the SEIU, they don't ask first for pay increases, benefits improvements, vacation time.... nope, they first demand the ability to automatically deduct dues from your paychecks instead of you having to consciously write them a check each pay. Is this bill right? After reading the debates, I am beginning to see the opposition's points. Someone has to give up something to make the Ohio fiscally sound. Any volunteers?

Guess as a corrections officer I'm not important enough for you. Can I get your address so when my pay is cut and my insurance goes up or the state privatizes the prisons. I can give the rapist murders and thieves your info so they can thank you for supporting senate bill 5 and running the good staff members out to other jobs making it easier for them to escape.

As a union employee we have the right to enroll in fair share and send our dues to a charity instead of the union. Then we can claim it on our taxes. Me personally I don't mind paying the $450. A year in dues to the union. That's better then losing most of my pay and benefits. Being able to be mandated to work more then 16hrs straight without 8 off afterwards. Not being able to have set days off. Being a victim of favoritism of our supervisors. There is a lot more things the union does for me so I don't care what they think of me.

How would merit base pay work for myself firefighters police and teachers? We don't put out a product just a service. How well one does a service is a matter of opinion. That opens the door for favoritism and ethics violations.

Everyone keeps bringing up the pensions. That's not part of my contract the union has nothing to do with that. That was set by separate legislation. Don't forget kasich took a lot of the people in charge of Ohios pension system and convinced them to invest in the company he worked for. A company that then went under and said screw you to all its investors. But somehow he still has a fat bank account. He wants Ohio to switch to 401k to help his wall street friends out.

Unions didn't create the deficit and getting rid of them won't fix it. Everyone I work with is willing to and has been taking concessions for years to help the state. I lost 10 days of pay this year and last because the state said that would save money. I also lost 32 hours of time off. Management pretty much got everything it asked for of us on this contract. So its a load of crap that the state says the unions don't negotiate. Getting rid of the unions is just another way to get rid of the middle class. State senators make almost double what I make and their health care is paid 100% for life. Why should they get better living then those that educated them or risk their life daily for them. Any politician that thinks our pay is too much shouldn't get paid more then the men and women on the front lines of our military.

This bill just pushes the upper class higher above the middle class by stepping on the throats of the working class. If we get paid less that's less tax money going into the budget creating more of a deficit. Who's going to pay for that?

[DAC]

Hey you're the one that brought up the bullshit and used a broad brush to paint it with.

Now you want to say can "easily" get pensions, way to add a qualifier. You get what you go after or do you want some organization to go fight those battles for you?

Whatever. Take care and keep the shiny side up!

Peace.

[fusion]

Whatever. Take care and keep the shiny side up!

Peace.

[SJC1000rr]

The theory of a merit based pay was brought up in out last contract negations and management decided then that it wouldn’t work. It wasn’t a blind side attack, it was a discussion on how it would be implemented and they couldn’t find a fair way to do it and dropped the issue shortly after bring it to the table. Us to them:

Base it off arrested:Yes

Warrants and charges filed:Sure

Reports done: Uh…,Yes

Buildings checked etc:Yes

How about traffic stops and field interviews: Uhh…. Never mind.

All of the items above can be varied/skewed by shift, dispatchers and management. There’s no way to make it work in public safety and it opens the door to discrimination by all the above on who they like and don’t like. Lawsuits will follow quickly and it also victimizes the pubic even more. How so? If a merit system were put in place where “stats” on what you did and how you spend your time determined your salary. Then tickets count for pay also, so guess what’s going to happen. You thought there was a “quota” system out there now, it will skyrocket. Everyone for even the most minor of infractions are going to get tickets, and pay even more through insurance. The government still wins and gets rich at the expense of everyone else’s loss, and the pubic will hate public services even more. I can’t say that everyone will do it, but that’s what I’d do if it were me..and I know I’m not the only one at work with this mindset. Let alone how to measure it for the other sections. How many fires you put out or lives saved? Or how many prisoners you escorted or riots you broke up. How well did your english students do on the senior tests? This isn't all the employee's fault for any of these scenarios, yet they are considering basing pay off it?

With our collective bargaining, its just that...elected persons from the membership body come together with management to workout problems. Discussion on non-financial issues and financial ones and come to a proposal and agreement. What’s so bad about that? Isn't that what anyone would want in there job?..where they can work with their employer towards the future. Our current proposal for the next 3 years: 2%-0%-0%... So its not like we are asking for a lot or forcing it down the throats of management. That’s a .67 cent raise for one year, then nothing for two years with health insurance cost going up. Our Vice President/Director of public safety gave himself 3.48% raise in 2009 $124,776->$129,144 and in 2010 (Hello recession!?!?... a 7.78% raise to $140,004!

Small Excerpt from Jay McDonald:

The state made a covenant with police when, in 1983, the right to strike was eliminated. In its place, we won the right to enter binding arbitration. But today that covenant is in danger – not only might we lose the right to binding arbitration, but also our basic right to collective bargaining – a right that protects our members and their families.

Another argument we hear is that there is a need for merit pay in law enforcement. Speaking of issues that have a potentially detrimental effect on agency operations, merit pay would essentially create a system where an officer might be paid based on the number of tickets written or warrants executed. No one wants to pay police just to write extra tickets. We understand that enforcing the law doesn’t always make everyone happy. On occasion, when we enforce the traffic law, someone might even call a police officer an idiot.... But that’s a topic for another day.

Edited February 20, 2011 by SJC1000rr

[C-bus]

Double post

Edited February 24, 2011 by C-bus
shortened up the double post

[C-bus]

Guess as a corrections officer I'm not important enough for you. Can I get your address so when my pay is cut and my insurance goes up or the state privatizes the prisons. I can give the rapist murders and thieves your info so they can thank you for supporting senate bill 5 and running the good staff members out to other jobs making it easier for them to escape.

As a union employee we have the right to enroll in fair share and send our dues to a charity instead of the union. Then we can claim it on our taxes. Me personally I don't mind paying the $450. A year in dues to the union. That's better then losing most of my pay and benefits. Being able to be mandated to work more then 16hrs straight without 8 off afterwards. Not being able to have set days off. Being a victim of favoritism of our supervisors. There is a lot more things the union does for me so I don't care what they think of me.

How would merit base pay work for myself firefighters police and teachers? We don't put out a product just a service. How well one does a service is a matter of opinion. That opens the door for favoritism and ethics violations.

Everyone keeps bringing up the pensions. That's not part of my contract the union has nothing to do with that. That was set by separate legislation. Don't forget kasich took a lot of the people in charge of Ohios pension system and convinced them to invest in the company he worked for. A company that then went under and said screw you to all its investors. But somehow he still has a fat bank account. He wants Ohio to switch to 401k to help his wall street friends out.

Unions didn't create the deficit and getting rid of them won't fix it. Everyone I work with is willing to and has been taking concessions for years to help the state. I lost 10 days of pay this year and last because the state said that would save money. I also lost 32 hours of time off. Management pretty much got everything it asked for of us on this contract. So its a load of crap that the state says the unions don't negotiate. Getting rid of the unions is just another way to get rid of the middle class. State senators make almost double what I make and their health care is paid 100% for life. Why should they get better living then those that educated them or risk their life daily for them. Any politician that thinks our pay is too much shouldn't get paid more then the men and women on the front lines of our military.

This bill just pushes the upper class higher above the middle class by stepping on the throats of the working class. If we get paid less that's less tax money going into the budget creating more of a deficit. Who's going to pay for that?

Enough with the threats. Thank you taking an intelligent debate and taking it down to this level. I know many COs who would be cringing right now.

[cOoTeR]

What threat I just asked for your address. Mainly to show a point that most people refuse to deal with the things state employees deal with daily.

[KhaoticRebel]

As a teacher, it's a scary bill. The part that worries me is that merit pay will inevitably mean more standardized testing. First off, standardized tests already claim way too much time, since more and more we're having to teach to the test. As a special education teacher, it gets even trickier. Why are kids labeled with a cognitive disability taking the exact same test as their regular ed grade level peers? Hello? They read at LEAST two levels below grade level and they're expected to pass these already tricky tests? I'll never see a raise again! Personally, I'm sick of politicians pretending they have a clue what goes on in education and calling the shots. It's like me strolling into ER surgery and telling the doctor what he should do and how to do it. Just because I've been to the doctor, doesn't mean I now know everything about being a doctor. Same thing with education.

The bill really strikes me as a poorly thought out "all or nothing" deal. Tenure is something I think could/should be addressed. While I would love to have tenure, I do think that it makes people lazy. The bare minimum becomes good enough and, in that case, hurts everyone. Somebody like that is pulling in a big salary and definitely not earning it. Also, putting more money into STRS, not a bad thing, as long as it still exists when I retire. I'll be plenty pissed if, after years of putting money into STRS, it no longer exists when I need it most. Overall, I think a middle ground needs to be reached.

[Sapphy]

As a teacher, it's a scary bill. The part that worries me is that merit pay will inevitably mean more standardized testing. First off, standardized tests already claim way too much time, since more and more we're having to teach to the test. As a special education teacher, it gets even trickier. Why are kids labeled with a cognitive disability taking the exact same test as their regular ed grade level peers? Hello? They read at LEAST two levels below grade level and they're expected to pass these already tricky tests? I'll never see a raise again! Personally, I'm sick of politicians pretending they have a clue what goes on in education and calling the shots. It's like me strolling into ER surgery and telling the doctor what he should do and how to do it. Just because I've been to the doctor, doesn't mean I now know everything about being a doctor. Same thing with education.

The bill really strikes me as a poorly thought out "all or nothing" deal. Tenure is something I think could/should be addressed. While I would love to have tenure, I do think that it makes people lazy. The bare minimum becomes good enough and, in that case, hurts everyone. Somebody like that is pulling in a big salary and definitely not earning it. Also, putting more money into STRS, not a bad thing, as long as it still exists when I retire. I'll be plenty pissed if, after years of putting money into STRS, it no longer exists when I need it most. Overall, I think a middle ground needs to be reached.

[magley64]

I personally think unions have run their course. They started as a makeshift OSHA (more or less) requiring safe working conditions and fair pay for employees who would otherwise be taken advantage of and possibly killed/mamed during the course of their work.

Nowadays they are essentially a leech on our economy. They have served their purpose.

Unions are also extremely hypocritical, hiring non-union picketers to protest the hiring of non-union workers.

Edited February 23, 2011 by magley64

[cfd37buckeye]

There are so many sides to this thing it is ridiculous. I have been to all of the readings of SB5, in the statehouse with the exception of the last one which we were locked out. I am a member of the IAFF local 910. Our last contract we negotiated minimal raises, and increased our contribution to insurance premiums. WE offered these to the city, because we were well aware of the financial crisis we were in. Our previous contract went to a fact finder and concilliator, and we lost, receiving 0%,0%,0% and a raise in our insurance contribution effectively resulting in a pay cut. I know that all unions are not like ours, and some will protect poor workers, but that is not the case with most public safety forces. When I was hired, we were evaluated every 6 months, and there were recommendations made for raises off of these evaluations. The city opted to take this out and just do across the board raises no matter what. So now it is turned around so that it looks like we are ALL the bad guys.. The reason I have been after this so much is the fact that collective bargaining and binding arbitration protects my safety at work. Ohio is a non OSHA state, and the labor laws that cover firefighting are very vague. NFPA standards state that there should be 17 firefighters to effectively battle a house fire.....we do it with 5 or six. I can guarantee the first thing the city will take from us is our minimum manning clause, reducing our on duty crews to 4, and putting us in more danger. The loss of binding arbitration, or the third and neutral party involved in the concilliation process will only cost the state and the cities and counties more money. Kasich is leading everyone to believe that the arbitrator comes from out of state, which is against the law and prohibited by SERB. The arbitrator has to be familiar with the situation to make an effective ruling. without binding arbitration, the contract negotiations that come to an impasse, will go to the local court where they will be decided on by a biased judge, and cost both the employer and the union large amounts of money. I could ramble about this all day long, but I am not going to get all redfaced and jump up and down. I just want anyone who takes the time to read this to understand that not all union people are out to get everything they can. I worked hard, studied hard, and love the job I do. I really do not want a rogue Governor pulling the rug out from under me and my family.

[cfd37buckeye]

But, if you're not a supervisor, how is the bill keeping you from being able to file a grievance? How is it messing with your time off? I'm so freaking confused.

The bill will effectively end any power that is held by the union. There will be no disciplinary policy, and like fireman 343 says, the management has the right to promote, hire fire etc, whoever they want. It does not matter whether they are the chiefs boy or the mayors son, or somebody who has busted their ass. We have never been allowed to strike, that is why we have binding arbitration, so that there is no work stoppage. When the employer offers a last offer, if it is not accepted, in a private union, it goes to a work stoppage or strike. In our case, it goes to a third neutral party who makes a decision, based on facts, for one side or the other. I have to tell you, that for the most part, the arbitrator will rule in favor of the employer.

In 2010 there were 3200+ Collective Bargaining Agreements in the state of Ohio and 0 strikes. 2009 there were 2 strikes, 2008 there were 3 strikes. The current collective bargaining bill has been in effect since 1983 (27 years), and has done nothing but heal the management / labor issue. It took almost 6 years to pass that bill, so why the big rush to tear down working middle class Ohio?

[cfd37buckeye]

No.. the promotion process is like this... if there is a Lt. slot open and you have enough time in service to apply, you can do so. Once you apply, you still have to take a physical agility test (don gear, drag hose, dummies, climb ladders, etc) and it's timed. Once you pass that, you then have to go thru the interview board and be interviewed for the job. Then, the chief's and HR person all get together and hire who has the highest score and who interviewed the best. So, that will "weed out" the dirtbags that apply just because they have time in service.

Just because you have enough time to become a Lt.. doesn't mean that they just "hand" you the promotion.. you have to go out and earn it

Whew, I wish it was like that here......I was given 5 books, 300 to 500 pages each, and told that I would have a test (150 questions) in 60 days over the material to promote to Engineer. That was over the holidays....I passed, finished first with a 92.93%

[cfd37buckeye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySMPbIq_MwY

Hope the link works, I was in this group yesterday

[cfd37buckeye]

A few more thoughts before I jump down from my soap box..... anybody who works in the private sector who thinks this will not affect them, you may want to put some thought into this. Union wages and benefits tend to build a more competitive market especially when it comes to skilled trades. A private electrical contractor has to pay a decent wage and benefit package to keep a quality employee working for him rather than going into an apprenticeship or working a union job. Without the unions, competition is gone, wages drop across the board, and everybody is working for peanuts. You think the construction business is lagging now, and there are a lot of foreclosures, wait until this bill makes it through.

But I guess I do not have to convince any of you, you do not have a vote. Kasich and his cronies are going to cram it down our throats.

Edited February 24, 2011 by cfd37buckeye

[drc32-0]

One small point cfd...not all private sector unions can go to a strike if an agreement is not reached.I'm in the I.B.E.W. and we a have a no strike/no work stoppage clause.

I think the private sector unions only have about 7% of the work now.If you listen to Kasich and other Wall streeters you'd think the economy should be humming right along with 93% of the work being done by non-union work places.Fact is...it's not.

So much for the school of thought that if we could just get rid of those pesky unions everything will be great.

Good luck.

Edited February 24, 2011 by drc32-0

[cfd37buckeye]

One small point cfd...not all private sector unions can go to a strike if an agreement is not reached.I'm in the I.B.E.W. and we a have a no strike/no work stoppage clause.

I think the private sector unions only have about 7% of the work now.If you listen to Kasich and other Wall streeters you'd think the economy should be humming right along with 93% of the work being done by non-union work places.Fact is...it's not.

So much for the school of thought that if we could just get rid of those pesky unions everything will be great.

Good luck.

So what are your options if you come to an impasse? Do you work under the old contract? Or do you work on all of the new agreed contract and negotiate the other points? That is what the new bill implies. An impasse will result in a one year extension of the current contract as it stands while a new contract is negotiated.

[drc32-0]

We go to the nlrb (national labor relations board),both sides give their case and an arbitrator decides the case.

[drc32-0]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/the-republican-strategy_b_825206.html

An interesting take on what's REALLY happening.

[redkow97]

i can't vote until there are options for:

"I think I disagree, but I haven't actually read the bill, so I'd just be basing my opinion on whatever talk radio station i listen to."

and

"I think I agree, but i haven't actually read the bill, so I'd just be basing my opinion on whatever talk radio station I listen to."

[Disclaimer]

On the plus side, nobody will have anything to do other than sit and debate this out when they can't go anywhere after the plow drivers strike, or all of then happen to call off "sick" tonight when this next storm hits...

City to discipline plow drivers who protested union rights

[Casper]

On the plus side, nobody will have anything to do other than sit and debate this out when they can't go anywhere after the plow drivers strike, or all of then happen to call off "sick" tonight when this next storm hits...

City to discipline plow drivers who protested union rights

Let them call in sick. Bring a doctor's note the next day or be fired. Easy fix. If they go on strike, go on the news saying there are immediate positions needing to be filled. The unemployment rate is high enough that those jobs will be filled in no time.

[Disclaimer]

Let them call in sick. Bring a doctor's note the next day or be fired. Easy fix. If they go on strike, go on the news saying there are immediate positions needing to be filled. The unemployment rate is high enough that those jobs will be filled in no time.

Ohh yea, so simple. Why don't you just push the "Easy" button?.

1) Still doesn't fix the immediate problem that there is 8" of snow/ice on the ground. If they wanted to get to the doctor they couldn't because the doctor can't even make it into his office.

2) Sick time is sick time, you can't control when you're going to be sick. Tough luck on 'coincidences'. Not every illness requires you do go to the doctor.

3) Strike, same issue as #1 -- how are all the "scabs" going to get to their new jobs?

In the meantime, you'll have millions in lost productivity in the private sector because no one can get to their jobs either.

Regardless of all that, you're going to let just any joe-blow off the street that wanted to sit behind a plow truck, plow? Yea, that's not a recipe for disaster or anything.

[Casper]

Ohh yea, so simple. Why don't you just push the "Easy" button?.

1) Still doesn't fix the immediate problem that there is 8" of snow/ice on the ground. If they wanted to get to the doctor they couldn't because the doctor can't even make it into his office.

2) Sick time is sick time, you can't control when you're going to be sick. Tough luck on 'coincidences'. Not every illness requires you do go to the doctor.

3) Strike, same issue as #1 -- how are all the "scabs" going to get to their new jobs?

In the meantime, you'll have millions in lost productivity in the private sector because no one can get to their jobs either.

Regardless of all that, you're going to let just any joe-blow off the street that wanted to sit behind a plow truck, plow? Yea, that's not a recipe for disaster or anything.

How many private plow drivers are there out there who would love a piece of that public pie? I know of at least 15 private plow drivers here in Columbus who would jump at that opportunity. That's just 15 people who I know that happen to have plows. Imagine how many there actually are.

It is that easy by the way. If you call off sick and it can be proven you called off to strike or otherwise were not sick, you should be fired. It's effectively stealing from your employer, whether that's the state or a private employer. End of story.

And it's Ohio. If you can't drive in 8" of snow you should probably move, or at least stay home. Definitely not be a plow driver.

And with that, stop being a troll.