wow...philadelphia police violate open carrier

[DAC]

Hmm. Here's to hoping this is an isolated incident. At least cooler heads eventually prevailed and no permanent damage was done. Law Enforcement is important and difficult work and the good outcomes don't get much press. We usually get to see only those examples where "Protect and Defend" gets interpreted as "Intimidate and Oppress." Those bad examples make for much more interesting YouTube viewing. (Or listening.)

I'm not a carrier of either open or concealed persuasion and own no guns. Guns in general - and handguns in particular - present a permanent solution to what are often temporary problems. And yet, paradoxically, I'm a big supporter of 2nd Amendment rights. The Framers got it right because they had some first hand experience. Supposedly they saw unfortunate situations where the rules had to be followed by everyone -- except those that enforce the rules.

Maybe someday, when I'm old and/or no longer a dog owner, I'll pick myself up a shotgun - IP seems to recommend the Mossberg with the 18.5" barrel - to protect my little realm. Then I'll have to go somewhere and figure out how to use it. But I doubt I'll carry it around town with a voice recorder. Until then, a mutt named Bonnie and a big MagLite will do.

[Sunseeker270]

Why would I want to ask people around me and bring attention to my self? How many bad guys do you see walk around with guns out in the open on their hips? You think the guy walking in to rob the gas station is wearing his on is belt in a serpa retention holster? Or does he have it stuffed in his waistband or pocket?

Why do I?

*I have nothing to hide.

*A right not exercised is a right lost.

*I find the deterrent factor outweighs the "tactical surprise" in many cases.

*If someone sees me open carrying a gun and not being a threat to them, hopefully that helps guns rights and to get rid of many of the stupid anti gun laws.

*It is easier to draw from a holster outside my pants than having to lift my shirt and draw it from inside my waistband.

Well it is comforting to know that all the guns I see on people's hips are good law abiding citizens. Comfort level is not a protected right, true. But my point is some time you have to put yourself in other people's shoes. The cop who just got shot at or the convenience store employee who just got robbed may be a little alarmed. Guess not an issue as long as you can exercise all your rights. Again my opinion. I have not googled a research paper on this subject. I prefer to get my information from actual life experiences. Carry concealed. Saves you from carrying around a recorder, memorizing city codes, And suing cities. Seems like alot of work.

[jagr]

When I was in the Corps we OCd all the time.

Jussayin'.

[chevysoldier]

Well it is comforting to know that all the guns I see on people's hips are good law abiding citizens. Comfort level is not a protected right, true. But my point is some time you have to put yourself in other people's shoes. The cop who just got shot at or the convenience store employee who just got robbed may be a little alarmed. Guess not an issue as long as you can exercise all your rights. Again my opinion. I have not googled a research paper on this subject. I prefer to get my information from actual life experiences. Carry concealed. Saves you from carrying around a recorder, memorizing city codes, And suing cities. Seems like alot of work.

lol, are you telling me you've see criminals carrying openly committing a crime?

It is the cops duty to uphold the law, not make it how he sees fit. What did the person in the video do that made the cop so jumpy? Walking down the street? Wow, yeah that was threatening alright.

Why is it I should have to put myself into other peoples shoes? You never hear "why don't you put yourself into the open carriers shoes."? Hell, I've been shot at. I know what bullets whistling inches from your head sound like. I know what it's like to have someone trying to kill you. But I also know that not everyone around me is out to kill me and I don't go treating everyone as such. Yeah, we are human and you might be on edge. But a professional officer should not have gone into this situation how he did.

I didn't give you but one paper someone wrote. (I think just one) The others were news articles. Where are you getting your real life experiences from? Do you open carry yourself? Do you frequent forums of open carriers and their experiences? Or do you only listen to the few things the slanted news leads you to believe?

I know people who only carry concealed who still carry a recorder. If they get stopped by a LEO they are required to inform and in case of that bad cop, they record the convo in case the cop takes advantage of them. Also, only concealing doesn't mean you shouldn't know the laws and what your limits are. You know you can't carry into a place serving alcohol correct? I'm sure you do. Your argument about not needing to know laws holds no water.

I've also have never sued anyone due to carrying. Most I know haven't either. But there are also CC'ers who have sued so that isn't limited to OC'ing.

[chevysoldier]

When I was in the Corps we OCd all the time.

Jussayin'.

I <3 you.

You really think I'd walk around concealed without a voice recorder? The voice recorder has nothing to do with open carry... and has everything to do with recording evidence. Also' date=' are you in favor of citizens not familiarizing themselves with ORC, and it's impact on firearm carry?

You know.. I'd have a lot easier time if officers would learn their job... like I have to learn mine. Not hatin'... just sayin'.[/quote']

I keep trying to rep you but it won't let me.

[Sunseeker270]

Actually I do carry concealed almost everywhere. Like they say, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six. I just wonder if you choose where you carry open. Would you carry open walking down parsons ave or livingston ave & oakwood ave. or would you just do this in suburbia where you are most likely in the company of law abiding citizens. My guess is you would cover that puppy up in the ghetto where the predators are. Be bold and righteous amongst the middle class.

[Sunseeker270]

Wow. So personal. Twat. So adult.

[chevysoldier]

Actually I do carry concealed almost everywhere. Like they say, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six. I just wonder if you choose where you carry open. Would you carry open walking down parsons ave or livingston ave & oakwood ave. or would you just do this in suburbia where you are most likely in the company of law abiding citizens. My guess is you would cover that puppy up in the ghetto where the predators are. Be bold and righteous amongst the middle class.

Okay, so you are aware enough of the laws to know where it's illegal to carry, but do anyways. Got it.

Secondly, I don't frequent places like that because I don't want to put myself into a position that I could avoid. I don't OC all the time. I choose OC or CC based on the situations I could find myself in or where I will be that day. For example, I'd conceal at a kids birthday party because I don't want all the kids trying to play with my gun.

Lastly, could you answer the rest of the stuff in my post? I think I have been pretty accommodating with answering your questions.

1) lol, are you telling me you've see criminals carrying openly committing a crime?

2) Why is it I should have to put myself into other peoples shoes? You never hear "why don't you put yourself into the open carriers shoes."?

3) Where are you getting your real life experiences from? 4) Do you frequent forums of open carriers and their experiences? 5) Or do you only listen to the few things the slanted news leads you to believe?

Edited March 27, 2011 by chevysoldier

[chevysoldier]

Wow. So personal. Twat. So adult.

He only used your method of thinking.

[John]

Actually I do carry concealed almost everywhere. Like they say, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six. I just wonder if you choose where you carry open. Would you carry open walking down parsons ave or livingston ave & oakwood ave. or would you just do this in suburbia where you are most likely in the company of law abiding citizens. My guess is you would cover that puppy up in the ghetto where the predators are. Be bold and righteous amongst the middle class.

i live right by parsons and livingston and walk to the gas station all the time. in fact, i just walked down there to get a pack of cigarettes. there are much worse parts of town IMO. most of the major crime is usually drug or gang related. the worst problem ive had was someone breaking into my car. that happened when i lived in new albany too

like i said earlier, open carry is simply a choice that we have. its not for everyone. you prefer concealed, someone else may prefer open. neither of you are right or wrong.

[chevysoldier]

like i said earlier, open carry is simply a choice that we have. its not for everyone. you prefer concealed, someone else may prefer open. neither of you are right or wrong.

This. I don't care if you open carry it or conceal it. I haven't once told you sunseeker, that concealing it is dumb and asking for trouble. But your reasonong of why not to OC are very mislead. You say that is is my fault the cop harassed me because he was having a bad day. I say I will not give up my liberties because a cop doesn't know his duty.

[Sunseeker270]

This. I don't care if you open carry it or conceal it. I haven't once told you sunseeker, that concealing it is dumb and asking for trouble. But your reasonong of why not to OC are very mislead. You say that is is my fault the cop harassed me because he was having a bad day. I say I will not give up my liberties because a cop doesn't know his duty.

I totally agree with john. To each his own. My original thought was that I don't get the upside other than because you can. My preference is CC. In my field of work (not a cop) you have to think like a criminal. If I was going to shoot up a school, mall, rob etc. I would take out the threats first. OC is not a deterrent if I have the drop. A deterrent is where are the guns i cant see! Any columbus residents remember the officer that was shot at the whitehall 5/3 bank. Robber took him out first then robbed. If an OC citizen were in line, he would be next. Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I realize I went off topic in that the original post was how the police handled the Philly situation so I apologize. I will just take my twat and BMW to my room and think about my actions.

[Sunseeker270]

Hmm.. the Chevy driving hillbilly caught the gist. I guess BMW guys really are twats.

Are you really upset about my opinions? Are you that sensitive? Didn't realize a difference of opinion was not allowed. Twat? Shit man, how old are you?

[chevysoldier]

I totally agree with john. To each his own. My original thought was that I don't get the upside other than because you can. My preference is CC. In my field of work (not a cop) you have to think like a criminal. If I was going to shoot up a school, mall, rob etc. I would take out the threats first. OC is not a deterrent if I have the drop. A deterrent is where are the guns i cant see! Any columbus residents remember the officer that was shot at the whitehall 5/3 bank. Robber took him out first then robbed. If an OC citizen were in line, he would be next. Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I realize I went off topic in that the original post was how the police handled the Philly situation so I apologize. I will just take my twat and BMW to my room and think about my actions.

Yeah, I'll give you in some instances OC can make you the first target. But most of the time they don't. Most criminals don't want to risk dying for some money. And for someone who says they have to think like a criminal, you admit to not doing any research into actual situations? Go to google and find out how many times someone open carrying was the first target. You won't find many, like I said before.

A deterrent is where are the guns i cant see!

How is something you can't see deter someone? That makes no sense.

Now could you please?

1) lol, are you telling me you've see criminals carrying openly committing a crime?

2) Why is it I should have to put myself into other peoples shoes? You never hear "why don't you put yourself into the open carriers shoes."?

3) Where are you getting your real life experiences from? 4) Do you frequent forums of open carriers and their experiences? 5) Or do you only listen to the few things the slanted news leads you to believe?

[Sunseeker270]

1) lol, are you telling me you've see criminals carrying openly committing a crime?

2) Why is it I should have to put myself into other peoples shoes? You never hear "why don't you put yourself into the open carriers shoes."?

3) Where are you getting your real life experiences from? 4) Do you frequent forums of open carriers and their experiences? 5) Or do you only listen to the few things the slanted news leads you to believe?

1 Most criminals do not carry open. They realize that concealing their weapon, gathering info on the target, then executing the crime far outweighs broadcasting what they have.

2 I say that because like I said before OC in this part of the country it is not common and when you approach certain people, it puts them on edge. Not your problem, I get it but the mom who just watched a school or mall shooting on the news may be on edge when you walk by the school exercising your rights.

3 I don't frequent too many forums because I have a busy life and have found that they are full of people like me who just feel like ranting sometimes. I don't treat forums as a serious source of info. This is a great forum of people who like to bike and bust each others balls. I laugh my ass off at the things you guys write but a serious source of info? And mainstream news? Don't they just push their own agenda?

4 IMHO (sorry-I should be putting this in front of everything but I thought is was assumed as I have cited nothing) CC sure seems like a deterrent to me. If I was a thug I would rob every store with a posted sign that prohibits CC. I know that no one in that store has a gun. If I was a thug I would rather live in a state with no CC allowed. I would know that more than likely, anywhere I went to rob, I'm the only one with a gun. And in those states, if there was only OC, I could easily spot those people. Everyone can. Sorry, there I go again putting myself in other's shoes.

Disclaimer- IMHO-----IMHO------IMHO

[Sunseeker270]

I'm not upset about anything. Your opinion is fine' date=' but it isn't supported by statistics. So, it's just that... an opinion. I don't believe you're a twat. You're probably a super cool dude. You just happen to be on the wrong side of the numbers in your argument.

For future reference... I'm an asshole. Don't take anything I post on this board personally.[/quote']

Point taken on the asshole thing! ; ). Never meant my position to be anything but my opinion. Sorry if it didn't come off that way. It annoys me to put IMHO and IMO on everything. Thought that was assumed. If I want to sound intelligent (which is rare) I'll be sure to footnote and cite my sources.

[Gump]

Lol

[chevysoldier]

1) lol, are you telling me you've see criminals carrying openly committing a crime?

2) Why is it I should have to put myself into other peoples shoes? You never hear "why don't you put yourself into the open carriers shoes."?

3) Where are you getting your real life experiences from? 4) Do you frequent forums of open carriers and their experiences? 5) Or do you only listen to the few things the slanted news leads you to believe?

1 Most criminals do not carry open. They realize that concealing their weapon, gathering info on the target, then executing the crime far outweighs broadcasting what they have.

2 I say that because like I said before OC in this part of the country it is not common and when you approach certain people, it puts them on edge. Not your problem, I get it but the mom who just watched a school or mall shooting on the news may be on edge when you walk by the school exercising your rights.

3 I don't frequent too many forums because I have a busy life and have found that they are full of people like me who just feel like ranting sometimes. I don't treat forums as a serious source of info. This is a great forum of people who like to bike and bust each others balls. I laugh my ass off at the things you guys write but a serious source of info? And mainstream news? Don't they just push their own agenda?

4 IMHO (sorry-I should be putting this in front of everything but I thought is was assumed as I have cited nothing) CC sure seems like a deterrent to me. If I was a thug I would rob every store with a posted sign that prohibits CC. I know that no one in that store has a gun. If I was a thug I would rather live in a state with no CC allowed. I would know that more than likely, anywhere I went to rob, I'm the only one with a gun. And in those states, if there was only OC, I could easily spot those people. Everyone can. Sorry, there I go again putting myself in other's shoes.

Disclaimer- IMHO-----IMHO------IMHO

Ok, now I am starting to understand your thought process. I still think it's flawed, but it's your stance nonetheless. Like I said, I'm really not trying to make you open carry, but to treat open carriers that way is wrong. Mom may be on edge, but she needs to learn that it isn't the gun that kills the people. She's part of the the reason so many places don't allow guns into their establishments. My right to carry a firearm should not be less important than her feeling safe.

Concealed carry cannot be a deterrent if your firearm is hidden. The sign prohibiting carry is an invitation. Those are two big differences.

You are correct in that places the prohibit carrying a firearm, crime tends to increase. But, nothing proves that open carrying increases the chances of them being the first shot across the board. Nothing is an end all be all and there are exceptions like the cop in Whitehall. But the overall statistics do not back up your claims. Would you really walk in to a 7/11 to rob it, then encounter a person OC'ing a weapon and decide to shoot him first? Is that money worth dying over? Is he a cop? Heck, when I OC that's the number one question I get.

Go check out http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php and http://www.ohioccwforums.org. and read peoples first hand experiences about OC.

I just got up and I'm not completely awake yet so I hope I made sense.

[Sunseeker270]

All's well. Just don't cry and ask Ben to cancel your OR.net subscription. I don't think I can tolerate any more pants-peeing this week.

Would never cancel. Like I said, too much comic relief here.

[Sunseeker270]

Concealed carry cannot be a deterrent if your firearm is hidden. The sign prohibiting carry is an invitation. Those are two big differences.

Not to beat a dead horse but why cant a CC law in a city be a deterrent? Does a deterrent have to be visible? I have an electric dog fence. My dogs don't go near it. Even with no collars! Can't one be deterred by the notion that there may be armed civilians in the store he is about to knock off?

[fusion]

The sign prohibiting carry is an invitation.

I doubt it, really. Maybe if the known CCW population of Ohio was closer to 50% it might be, but most people know hardly anyone carries; only 3% of Ohioans have CHLs.

[Sunseeker270]

I doubt it, really. Maybe if the known CCW population of Ohio was closer to 50% it might be, but most people know hardly anyone carries; only 3% of Ohioans have CHLs.

I didnt post that.

[jhaag]

For example, I'd conceal at a kids birthday party because I don't want all the kids trying to play with my gun.

there's a joke in there somewhere.

re: sunseekers stance:

so, what is being argued here is that my actions, whatever they may be and well within my rights, should be dictated by the lack of education on the subject, complacency and apathy of those around me? its like making the test easier so the dumb kids do better.

this is the problem with the world today........IMO.

[jagr]

When I was 16 I would OC condoms.

Because you never really know when something was going down and you may need to protect yourself!

[Big Chief201]

I'm still trying to figure out why this thread is going on. The guy was in his rights to be walking down the street as he was without having his rights infringed upon. The cop was wrong and there's no argument that could possibly justify his actions. I dont care who you are or what you have had done to you in the past (i.e. robber, shot at, etc.) it give you no right to infringe upon another citizens given rights protected by the constitution and statutes because you are not in the know (as the cop was) or it makes you feel uncomfortable.