increasing speed in twistiez

[Tpoppa]

Forget about the faster guys you are riding with. They're faster for a reason. After some more seat time.. you'll be faster than some of the guys you ride with.

Speed shouldn't be the goal. Speed is a byproduct of the goal. The goal is to be smooth and consistent.

This

The only thing I would add is that corner speed comes with confidence. Confidence comes from practicing and understanding good technique:

-The right line through a corner

-Counter steering

-Body position

Practice these 1 at a time at first, then all together when you're ready.

[e-flores]

speed shouldn't be the goal. Speed is a byproduct of the goal. The goal is to be smooth and consistent.

this!!!! Everyone listen to this please!!!!

[redkow97]

I didn't know anything about how to handle a bike until I did a few track days. I can't recommend them enough to new riders.

quoted for truth. I thought I was going to drag a knee in my first or second session on the track. Figured I was close on the street. It looks pretty easy. Wrong. I sucked beyond sucking, and I wasn't an unsafe or incompetent street rider by ANY means.

I literally learned more in 1 day than in 2+ years of prior street riding. I have heard people with a LOT more street experience than me say the same thing after their first trackday.

I think one of the overlooked benefits of a trackday is that you're negotiating the SAME turn a hundred times that day. You learn through repetition, and have the chance to fix the mistakes you were making in an environment where YOU are the variable, instead of the turn being the variable.

While the technique for turn X at track Y translates to many other situations you'll encounter at other tracks and on the street, trying to learn 1 technique from a bunch of different turns isn't an effective method.

[NinjaN8]

If you have any motorcycle experience at all avoid the MSF course. If you are brand new to the operation of a bike then it is a worth while endeavor. The more I hear about the MSF course the more I don't like it. I had done a lot of dirt bike riding before I got my first street bike and never took the course. I rode a lot of years with plenty of oh shit moments but still thinking I could ride. I didn't know anything about how to handle a bike until I did a few track days. I can't recommend them enough to new riders.

Down here in Florida, the ONLY way to get your license is through taking the MSF Basic Rider Course. I didn't see anything wrong with what they are teaching and most insurance companies give you discounts for taking the course.

I've also taken the MSF Military Sport Bike Rider course and I have to say that it taught me quite a bit. The course is definitely geared to a quicker pace and focuses on turning quite a bit.

The Experienced Rider Course was kind of a let down though...

[jporter12]

Negative Ghostrider. Take your hands off the bars and use your hips. See what the bike does. Any transfer of weight left/right of center will initiate a soft lean to one side. It's just not nearly as precise or good to feel.

I'm not going to discuss the dynamics of turning a motorcycle at speed any more, until I find the source that I was taking the info from. It's not super important anyway, once you realize what Brian said:

You are both right to a degree. You cannot steer the bike alone with handlebars and you cannot steer alone with your lower body. It takes both.

You need to apply input to the bike. It is a gyroscope and wants to sit up all the time. It doesn't naturally want to lean through a turn. Watch a guy fall off - the bike sits up and ghost rides itself straight up and down. You need input to get it to sit on the side and lean through a turn. That takes counter steering and body position and application from the legs...

If I ever get some time, I'll try to find what I was reading. It was something about there was an experiment done with a set of bars attached to the frame, riders would use them and lean to try to turn. The amount they could turn was minimal.

[Moto-Brian]

I'm not going to discuss the dynamics of turning a motorcycle at speed any more, until I find the source that I was taking the info from. It's not super important anyway, once you realize what Brian said:

If I ever get some time, I'll try to find what I was reading. It was something about there was an experiment done with a set of bars attached to the frame, riders would use them and lean to try to turn. The amount they could turn was minimal.

If you think you can turn a bike with steering through the bars only, again... At a slower speed you could and you can easily show how countersteering works.

BUT, I am saying you need everything. You need input in the bars, you need the lower body to help also. Otherwise, you could run into a 100mph turn and do it w/o leaning off the bike and w/o anything other than your arms.

Again, they were turning minimally as you mentioned (It should have been a Keith Code experiment) which means it can be turned with the body, but the arms help make it work in totality.

You need them all working together...

[jporter12]

If you think you can turn a bike with steering through the bars only, again... At a slower speed you could and you can easily show how countersteering works.

BUT, I am saying you need everything. You need input in the bars, you need the lower body to help also. Otherwise, you could run into a 100mph turn and do it w/o leaning off the bike and w/o anything other than your arms.

Again, they were turning minimally as you mentioned (It should have been a Keith Code experiment) which means it can be turned with the body, but the arms help make it work in totality.

You need them all working together...

And that's exactly why I quoted you saying that you need both (to make a higher speed turn effectively!)

I know that when I make a turn though, it's virtually impossible to keep the bike from leaning as a result of countersteering.

This is getting into a a chicken or egg discussion, when I'm in agreement with you, that you need both steering input and lean.

[blue03636]

In my opinion he isn't yet ready for a track day. He hasn't even mastered the basics of a bike yet. When your comfy on your bike and don't have to think about brakes, steering, etc...THEN do a track day. Everyone should do at least 1.

Not true, I have seen riders who get their first bike and bring it out and have no clue what they are doing. I wish I would have started sooner and not wait 3 years to hit the track. As long as you can get a bike moving, shift gears, and stop it you can do a trackday.

[ReconRat]

There was an experiment in Britain a while ago, where they locked the handlebars to the frame, and attempted to turn the bike with just body. Not much happened. Only shallow turns happened on a motorcycle. A bit of a surprise. Whereas on a bicycle, you can ride without hands anytime and turn pretty well. If you're real careful in the turns. Otherwise fall down just as easily.

edit: Again, I think this will vary from one motorcycle to another. Some have front fork geometry that will respond better or worse.

[blue03636]

There was an experiment in Britain a while ago, where they locked the handlebars to the frame, and attempted to turn the bike with just body. Not much happened. Only shallow turns happened on a motorcycle. A bit of a surprise. Whereas on a bicycle, you can ride without hands anytime and turn pretty well. If you're real careful in the turns. Otherwise fall down just as easily.

edit: Again, I think this will vary from one motorcycle to another. Some have front fork geometry that will respond better or worse.

Keith Code does the same thing. It really shows that you have to use both.

[Gump]

Down here in Florida, the ONLY way to get your license is through taking the MSF Basic Rider Course. I didn't see anything wrong with what they are teaching and most insurance companies give you discounts for taking the course.

I've also taken the MSF Military Sport Bike Rider course and I have to say that it taught me quite a bit. The course is definitely geared to a quicker pace and focuses on turning quite a bit.

The Experienced Rider Course was kind of a let down though...

Unrelated but from about a foot and half away your avatar looks like a cute blond with a chest

[jporter12]

Mutation occurs inside the egg.. so' date=' the egg came first. I thought everyone knew that? [/quote']

If that's the case, then the answer is 2!

[jporter12]

Keith Code does the same thing. It really shows that you have to use both.

I was just coming back to this to say that it was Keith Code! I found reference to it in a wikipedia article about bicycle and motorcycle dynamics. I think it's in A Twist 2, which I have, so I'll look for it.

[jporter12]

The bicycle has less gyroscopic force keeping it upright. The answer is 288. Carry on...

The first thing I got from the article is how different bicycles are compared to motorcycles, due to speed, weight, and many other variables...

[jbot]

the answer is, stop listening to these bickering tards and just do a track day.

[jporter12]

the answer is, stop listening to these bickering tards and just do a track day.

Shut up or the puppies I promised you go to the pound! (Or the Chinese restaurant in town.)

[NinjaNick]

Not true, I have seen riders who get their first bike and bring it out and have no clue what they are doing. I wish I would have started sooner and not wait 3 years to hit the track. As long as you can get a bike moving, shift gears, and stop it you can do a trackday.

You're not going to learn well if you don't have the basics down. The OP seems like he doesn't. You need to be able to know how to basically ride a motorcycle before any track day IMO. I rode 2 years before my track day and only thing different I learned was how to lean better in turns. I had others/mentors teach me the most that have done it all before I knew what a motorcycle was. The street isn't a track, which is what the majority of motorcyclists care about...riding the street. Not many people care about track riding when it comes to motorcycling. Everyone should do one, but not many people care to make a hobby out of it. It's not as great/fun as others make it out to be; doing lap after lap of the same shit. Most of them that do them all the time do it because it makes them feel like they're better than street riders, OR they're wanna be stars in their head when in reality nothing will come of it, OR they're just too scared of the street. I personally get tired of hearing track only riders speak of it so highly. I hate the fucking track just because of the that. I thought it was awesome after my 1st time then I hit the street again and realized the street is WAY more fun. I apply what I learned on the track to the street and it made riding more fun, but the street is more fun than a track IMO. Track only people kind of get on my nerves.

Edited April 22, 2011 by NinjaNick

[cornbreadxd]

I've not done a track day yet but it makes sense that you'd get alot out of it because its controlled so 1000 times less variables than on the street to get your practice in. It was hard for me to practice alot of skills because the roads in cleveland were/are a disgrace (Redkow can back me up on that) but they help perfect emergency stops.

[Moto-Brian]

You're not going to learn well if you don't have the basics down. The OP seems like he doesn't. You need to be able to know how to basically ride a motorcycle before any track day IMO. I rode 2 years before my track day and only thing different I learned was how to lean better in turns. I had others/mentors teach me the most that have done it all before I knew what a motorcycle was. The street isn't a track, which is what the majority of motorcyclists care about...riding the street. Not many people care about track riding when it comes to motorcycling. Everyone should do one, but not many people care to make a hobby out of it. It's not as great/fun as others make it out to be; doing lap after lap of the same shit. Most of them that do them all the time do it because it makes them feel like they're better than street riders, OR they're wanna be stars in their head when in reality nothing will come of it, OR they're just too scared of the street. I personally get tired of hearing track only riders speak of it so highly. I hate the fucking track just because of the that. I thought it was awesome after my 1st time then I hit the street again and realized the street is WAY more fun. I apply what I learned on the track to the street and it made riding more fun, but the street is more fun than a track IMO. Track only people kind of get on my nerves.

But, see that's the thing... You did one track day. What we are saying is that learning what your bike can or cannot do is easier on the track than the street. If I take two riders. The one rider I take to the track and teach him how to ride his bike better and learn the basics, and the second rider is started on the street and only that, the track rider is going to be a more advanced rider.

It's like taking a kid that plays football all the way through high school. I then take a kid that played backyard football. Both at the quarterback position... The high school kid is going to be a better player. Now, of course there are going to be examples of natural ability and such, but on average, experience at a higher level will net better results.

What bugs me is that street guys that do a handful of track days think it didn't help them. They are probably right to a degree. But, if you think you can learn as much on the street as you can on the track, that's simply not true.

If you took a street rider with 10 years experience and a track rider with 10 years experience and placed them on an unknown road, the track day guy is going to have a higher reserve and handle the environment better... It's simple training. Learn pitching from a major league pitching coach or your dad that played in JV...

[RFM]

Nope.... If we gauge a wreck as a fail. On one ride through unknown roads around the 555, four of us set out, and two wrecked. Street rider here, same pace- bike came back whole. One street rider wreck, one tracker wreck. Who is the better rider?

Sort of silly to say who is better. I can fly through the Gap faster than a track guy who is going for the first few run throughs. Likewise, a guy who spends all his dosh on going to Mid Ohio is going to do much better at pushing the speed than myself, who has gone five times. By now I've got the line, the braking points- but finding the limits is still the game...

[jporter12]

but finding the limits is still the game...

We're still waiting for you to find your limits... Of idiocy!

I'm going to guess that situaion was a case of over-confidence

[jschaf]

Street riding & track riding require 2 different & slightly overlapping skill sets. The track will take you closer to the limit in the realms of cornering, braking, & acceleration. This is because ,at a given speed of riding, the street requires much more of your attention in dealing with cagers, highly variable traction surfaces, & curves that you haven't memorized (among other things). You could jump in & do a track day your first season of riding but you might be overwhelmed or stuck in a group so slow you might as well be riding on the street. I think it would be better for the new rider to at least ride on the street for a season before heading out to the track. Just my 2 cents.

[Disclaimer]

You should see 4girlsfingerpaint.

1man1jar?

Go as fast down the straights as you can, then lock the brakes 1/3 into the turn. If you can, completely focus your eyes on an oncoming car.

^this

But seriously... I like to trail brake. It's ok as long as you're not CHOMPING on the brakes, but also don't expect to scrub a ton of mid-corner speed doing it. Not what it's intended for. On a bike, almost everything is about being smoooooooooth. That's why vtwin riders are better than everyone else, because they control the beast. Those I4 guys . Taming a vtwin vs. an I4 is like the difference between taming a lion vs. a housecat.

Ohh, and I challenge everyone in this thread at all aspects of life - just because.

/stirpot

Edited April 22, 2011 by JRMMiii

[RFM]

We're still waiting for you to find your limits... Of idiocy!

I'm going to guess that situaion was a case of over-confidence

SILENCE!!! There is NO limit!!!

[NinjaNick]

Damn, I thought for sure there was going to be an attack for my abrasive post. I'm impressed that I spoke my mind and nobody got irate over it.

Yeah, I understand your point of view Brian. Not everyone cares to be a consistent track rider though. If it was free, sure, but it's not worth the money to always go IMO. I feel it's worth a 1 or 2x deal though for sure. I and many others really enjoy street riding and the joy it brings is pretty much what I wanted to get across. It's kind of like JW's and Mormons always knocking on your door trying to convert you when you just want them to keep it to themselves and quit preaching...you know? I consider the track a learning tool and not a lifestyle. Hmmm...I guess I'm just saying that damn it...I'm a street rider and enjoy the freedom of riding whenever I want, how I want, and being with friends.